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Thread: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    I've been saying this about the asians for quite some time now. Pretty sad.

    I'm not anti or pro discrimination at all, I think that should be up to the property owner. So the best solution to all this in my view is ending the cartelization of education and repealing all anti-discrimination/pro-discrimination laws.

    I also believe that affirmation action was designed to do exactly what it is accomplishing: creating more racial strife, hurting certain minorities, and increasing tension overall.

    I prefer liberty to "equality"

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst
    I won't because I'm sure you know how to Google and if you were really interested in what Rev. King had to say about aff-act you'd do so. But if you READ the speech or any of his other works, you will find that he is calling for an end to systematic inequality against "Negroes"...
    Okay, I'm with you so far.
    ...and there has to be some form of special treatment given to minorities in order to put them on the same level as Whites ...
    Wrong. Please post the section of Rev. King's speach that calls for racial quotas.

    ster·e·o·type A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
    Funny I thought stereotyping people was wrong. Yet you jump to the conclusion that because I disagree with you, that I have never read Rev. King's, "I Have A Dream" speach, or "Letter From A Birmingham Jail". I agree 100% with Rev. King. Its many of today's African-American leaders and their attempts to Balkanize our country and continue our present "racial-spoils" system that I take issue with.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member Amethyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    I didn't jump to any conclusion about whether or not you read any of King's works. I merely stated that if you want to know more about what MLK REALLY thought about Affirmative Action, you would Google the speech and his other works yourself - on your own time - therefore, making it unnecessary for me to post the speech.

    If one actually takes the time to READ (meaning not only skim the pages for points to support their argument, but actually make an attempt to UNDERSTAND) King's writings instead of one little snippet from his "I Have A Dream" speech, then they would know he was Pro Affirmative-Action. No, he does not come out and say "GIVE ME AFFIRMATIVE ACTION/RACIAL QUOTAS OR GIVE ME DEATH" (neither of these phrases had been invented during King's time, BTW) but he does suggest it. Again, if one really reads the speech - and not just look for talking points - they'd know that.

    But what the hay, I got time to kill - I'll play along...you've read the speech, so you apparently know how to find it (you might also want to rexamine it to see how he additionally alludes to reparations). Here are couple of other quotes from some works you may (or may not have) read (don't want to make any "stereotypes"


    Why We Can't Wait (1963):
    "Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."
    Wonder what that bold part alludes to...

    Where Do We Go From Here? Chaos or Community? (1967)
    "A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, in order to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis".

    So, if you believe in King 100%:

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I agree 100% with Rev. King


    Then, I guess we can assume you believe in Affirmative Action. Which you've vehemently stated you don't.

    And while people are mad at Black-American leaders who want to "Balkanize" this country, they might want to direct some of that anger towards the "White-Guilt Liberals" for continuing to insist that minorities NEED aff-act in order to compete and the prejudiced/racist folks that continue to discriminate against minorities making all this dialogue necessary.

    Edit: Revised to take the "personalness" out of it so as to avoid the dreaded "lock"
    Last edited by Amethyst; 04-20-2005 at 02:25 PM.


  4. #29
    Featured Member Amethyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    I hate to let something as trivial as facts get in the way of a lively discussion, but for a fact the city public schools in Washington DC, New York City etc. have both the highest percentage of minority students and the highest per-student educational spending (around $14,000 per student versus an average figure of about $9,000 for suburban public schools). If there is any validity to the claims that these city public schools don't provide equal access to computers, up to date textbooks etc. it obviously has nothing to do with educational funding levels.
    How is this $14K divied (sp) out vs the $9K? Since you believe it's not the educational funding levels, what do you think it is?

    And to answer your question, "Hmm, who's discriminating against whom?", sounds to me like more folks in power discriminating against Asians for the sake of diversity. And yes, I do agree that is discrimination (just for the record).


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    Featured Member Amethyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t

    I'm not anti or pro discrimination at all, I think that should be up to the property owner. So the best solution to all this in my view is ending the cartelization of education and repealing all anti-discrimination/pro-discrimination laws.

    I also believe that affirmation action was designed to do exactly what it is accomplishing: creating more racial strife, hurting certain minorities, and increasing tension overall.

    I prefer liberty to "equality"
    If people weren't discriminated against for being Black/White/Asian/Hispanic/Eskimo/Gay/Straight/Fat/Short/Handicapped/etc... then anti-discrimination laws would not be necessary. If people would stop stereotyping, generalizing, making assumptions, perpetuating negative or positive myths about someone based on their ethnicity, gender, physical ability, or sexual orientation then "pro-discrimination" laws like Affirmative Action would also be uncalled-for. If people would kill their senses of entitlement and improve their own situations and self-worths, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    And I would prefer my liberty hand-in-hand with equality, thank you very much.


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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    How is this $14K divied (sp) out vs the $9K? Since you believe it's not the educational funding levels, what do you think it is?
    I obviously don't have detailed access to school budgets from far-flung areas of the USA. However where New York City's school budget is concerned, a significant fraction of that money goes towards legal fees and judgements, security services, administration (far and above the number of administrators necessary to operate the schools themselves), and disproportionate teacher/administrator salaries, health and retirement benefits.

    Stop for a minute and consider that with an average of even 20 students per class, and with a $14,000 annual expenditure, the amount of tax money being poured into that one classroom is $280,000 per year. Considering that the amount of people involved on the teaching side is essentially one full time teacher and one (very) part time administrator, considering that the facility area involved is maybe 2500 square feet, and considering that providing school supplies and facilities for just 20 students goes along with that $280,000 annual expenditure. It really stretches the imagination as to how it's actually possible to keep spending that amount of money year after year. You could pay two teachers (or a teacher and a security guard) $60,000 per year, plus contribute to the salary of a part time administrator, plus you could lease space in a brand new building, and you could buy 20 brand new computers every year, and still have a bunch of money left over !

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    Last edited by Melonie; 04-20-2005 at 03:25 PM.

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    Featured Member Amethyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    I obviously don't have detailed access to school budgets from far-flung areas of the USA. However where New York City's school budget is concerned, a significant fraction of that money goes towards legal fees and judgements, security services, administration (far and above the number of administrators necessary to operate the schools themselves), and disproportionate teacher/administrator salaries, health and retirement benefits.
    I didn't realize that New York was so "far flung" from you, and I'm certain I did not deserve that first remark considering I don't know what you obviously do or don't have access to, but thank you for answering my question anyway. I wanted to know where the $$$ was going to - particularly if it was going towards providing the latest-edition books, technology, higher-educated teachers I mentioned. But from your post, it would appear to NOT be going in that direction and is not being used in the most efficient manner (meaning, improving access to the above referenced to students). I doubt this kind of crapola would stand in suburbian schools...
    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Stop for a minute and consider that with an average of even 20 students per class, and with a $14,000 annual expenditure, the amount of tax money being poured into that one classroom is $280,000 per year. Considering that the amount of people involved on the teaching side is essentially one full time teacher and one (very) part time administrator, considering that the facility area involved is maybe 2500 square feet, and considering that providing school supplies and facilities for just 20 students goes along with that $280,000 annual expenditure. It really stretches the imagination as to how it's actually possible to keep spending that amount of money year after year. You could pay two teachers (or a teacher and a security guard) $60,000 per year, plus contribute to the salary of a part time administrator, plus you could lease space in a brand new building, and you could buy 20 brand new computers every year, and still have a bunch of money left over !
    Melonie, believe me, I have considered this absurdity and this is precisely what frosts my cookies when it comes to our public school systems and funding. Money that should be going to enrich the education of the students is being carelessly managed, which just aggravates the current "poor school/rich school" issue.


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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    didn't realize that New York was so "far flung" from you, and I'm certain I did not deserve that first remark considering I don't know what you obviously do or don't have access to, but thank you for answering my question anyway. I wanted to know where the $$$ was going to - particularly if it was going towards providing the latest-edition books, technology, higher-educated teachers I mentioned.
    Sorry, my post must have come across differently than intended. I "obviously" know a fair amount about NYC and upstate NY school budgets because I live there. As to 'far flung' school district budgets, I have seen the record breaking DC budget reports, and have gleaned a bunch of anecdotal stuff from friends who live in other states. In virtually every case the 'big city' school districts, despite the fact that per capita student spending is higher than rural/suburban districts, all tend to spend lots of money on highly paid administrators, lawyers, psychologists, counselors, security etc. and spend the same or less on actual student educational expenditures i.e. classroom teachers, computers etc.


    Melonie, believe me, I have considered this absurdity and this is precisely what frosts my cookies when it comes to our public school systems and funding. Money that should be going to enrich the education of the students is being carelessly managed, which just aggravates the current "poor school/rich school" issue.
    I hear you there ... especially considering the fact that many 'poor schools' (poor in terms of average incomes of student's households anyhow) are spending considerably more money per student that 'rich schools' in the suburbs (where the average income of student's households is higher but where administrative and legal expenses as well as average teacher salaries are lower). And to add extra frosting, a New York judge just ruled that suburban/upstate taxpayers must subsidize NY City school districts to increase their already 50% higher per student spending levels to even more astronomical heights. I believe that this insane ruling is based on the fact that NY City has a much higher percentage of school tax exempt property (like city, state and federal buildings, the UN, consulates etc.)


    I'm also going to throw a comment out there which will probably draw mucho caliente. I actually picked this up from my grandmother, who was a career schoolteacher, but who virtually went into shock upon seeing this year's school tax bill. Many in NY make the argument that good secondary school teachers should be paid $50-$60,000 per year. However, my grandmother makes the very valid argument that if you count up the number of hours actually worked by a typical teacher per year, subtracting 12 weeks summer vacation, subtracting 2 weeks Christmas vacation, subtracting 2 weeks spring break, and subtracting every federal and state holiday, a secondary school teacher actually works an average of something like 24 hours per week. That's one hell of a lucrative part time job, with stellar fringe benefits to boot !
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-20-2005 at 05:34 PM.

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    Featured Member Amethyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    In virtually every case the 'big city' school districts, despite the fact that per capita student spending is higher than rural/suburban districts, all tend to spend lots of money on highly paid administrators, lawyers, psychologists, counselors, security etc. and spend the same or less on actual student educational expenditures i.e. classroom teachers, computers etc.
    That's actually quite interesting. Thanks for posting it. Do you mean they spend the same amount of money on actual student expenditures as the amount they spend on their admins, etc.. or the same as students in suburb schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    I hear you there ... especially considering the fact that many 'poor schools' (poor in terms of average incomes of student's households anyhow) are spending considerably more money per student that 'rich schools' in the suburbs (where the average income of student's households is higher but where administrative and legal expenses as well as average teacher salaries are lower). And to add extra frosting, a New York judge just ruled that suburban/upstate taxpayers must subsidize NY City school districts to increase their already 50% higher per student spending levels to even more astronomical heights. I believe that this insane ruling is based on the fact that NY City has a much higher percentage of school tax exempt property (like city, state and federal buildings, the UN, consulates etc.)
    LOL @ "more frosting".

    That's similar to the Robin Hood-like program that they have here in Texas. I'm all about equalizing the amount of $$ spent on educational exp. in public schools, but the money needs to NOT go towards fattening admins pockets, but to benefit the kids. What they proposed in NYC is ridiculous if the money is just going to admin, lawyer, etc.. salaries and not teachers and student resources.


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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Many in NY make the argument that good secondary school teachers should be paid $50-$60,000 per year. However, my grandmother makes the very valid argument that if you count up the number of hours actually worked by a typical teacher per year, subtracting 12 weeks summer vacation, subtracting 2 weeks Christmas vacation, subtracting 2 weeks spring break, and subtracting every federal and state holiday, a secondary school teacher actually works an average of something like 24 hours per week. That's one hell of a lucrative part time job, with stellar fringe benefits to boot !
    I have mixed feelings about this (or I guess you could say I'm not as educated on this as I probably need to be). I read somewhere that teachers make more per hour than architects and civil engineers along with info to support what you've written above. I also don't know that I have a problem with it until I find out that a lot of teachers are incompetent as reflected in their peer/superior observations and their classroom grade statistics.


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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst
    I have mixed feelings about this (or I guess you could say I'm not as educated on this as I probably need to be). I read somewhere that teachers make more per hour than architects and civil engineers along with info to support what you've written above. I also don't know that I have a problem with it until I find out that a lot of teachers are incompetent as reflected in their peer/superior observations and their classroom grade statistics.
    I think teachers are required to get continuing education and do so during the summer months. I don't know this as a fact though.

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    Default Re: hmmm, who's discriminating against whom ?

    I have mixed feelings about this (or I guess you could say I'm not as educated on this as I probably need to be). I read somewhere that teachers make more per hour than architects and civil engineers along with info to support what you've written above. I also don't know that I have a problem with it until I find out that a lot of teachers are incompetent as reflected in their peer/superior observations and their classroom grade statistics.
    I have mixed feelings about the subject too ... particularly since my own grandmother was an extremely dedicated teacher in the classic sense. But that was prior to the days when the NEA came to rule the curriculum and the governmental politics of school admin + teacher's unions took 99% of discretion away from teachers to the point where they're not even allowed to control their own classroom anymore. If Grandma were still teaching, she'd throw a 'fastball' eraser across the classroom smacking troublemakers up side the head, and punch the principal for being a 'pussy-wimp' and caring more about attendance (i.e. state aid payments) and 'social promotions' to keep parents off his back than the school's graduates being readily accepted at good colleges.

    But the long and short of it is that teachers who have established curriculums and lesson plans (which are developed during the first year or two of teaching in the same school) actually only work about a 7 hour day = 35 hours a week. And as I posted earlier, with summer vacation and the two seasonal breaks subtracted, they only work about 36-37 weeks a year (depending on how exams are administered i.e. NY Board of Regents requires an extra week of test supervision). On top of that they don't work on any state or federal holidays. This basically adds up to a part-time job which averages about 24 hours per week in exchange for a very nice paycheck and benefits package.

    Granted some teachers do work longer hours as sports coaches, teaching music/computer or other regular after school classes etc. Some teachers also choose to teach 8 weeks of 'summer school'. However, all of these extra hours result in extra pay as well. I don't doubt one bit career stats saying that teaching is towards the top of the financial reward scale versus the required hours/effort, and is probably well above that of engineers etc. who must work at least 8 hours a day 50 weeks a year in exchange for an almost equal amount of salary and a benefits package which is probably not as good.

    You're also correct about teacher's unions plus 'tenure' making it virtually impossible for a teacher to be fired or otherwise penalized due to poor teaching performance once they have survived the first three years prior to granting of 'tenure'. In New York at least, the educational system is so politicized that 'political correctness' and avoiding controversy/publicity in any form, both within the school system and in the community at large, mean much more than actually seeing to it that students receive a decent education.

    As to continuing education, this is only required to the extent that the teacher holds the required degree for granting of 'tenure' ... i.e. a new teacher can be hired to teach high school with a BA, but will need to finish an MA before 'tenure' will be granted (in New York at least). While continuing education of this sort isn't immediately paid for, it is indirectly paid for over the long term by a state policy which 'forgives' a portion of the outstanding balance of the teacher's student loans for every year they work as a teacher, plus a pay raise upon achieving the MA and granting of 'tenure'. There are also occasional 'seminars' or other short courses which are required, which are directly paid for as they take place during a dedicated week within the school year which the students have off as vacation.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-25-2005 at 04:34 PM.

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