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Thread: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

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    Default The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    I've been reading a lot of rants on the topic of customers who don't pay for anything at clubs, and generally agree with the dancer's sentiments - its an unspoken rule for society in general - if you don't pay, you don't play.
    The basic theory goes... the more you spend on a dancer, the more time she will spend with you, but strangely I often witness behavior from dancers that runs contrary to this philosophy. Sadly I've often observed poor chumps that zealously adhere to this rule tossing wads of cash onto the stage and remain companionless the entire night.

    On the flip side, I have many times observed the mysterious stranger sitting for hours at an out of the way table in the back of the club, never dropping a dime for the dancers, and for some odd reason he is never lacking for company. At first I thought he is some regular or a friend of the owner that the dancers all know and are compelled to entertain. But after witnessing this phenomenon repeatedly I decided to try it myself to see what was up.

    I went to a couple places I frequented and found an isolated table away from the usual traffic. I just sat there with my drink and watched the stage, but never got up to tip or talk to anyone. Eventually I was visited by nearly every dancer in the place, some would sit and talk for long periods, some would not even ask for a lap dance, and some would return repeatedly to continue talking. And I spent nothing on them. I repeated this several times. I had more social action than any of the chumps emptying their wallets on the stage and for private dances.

    I believe in tipping, and I even tip $5 - $10 on top of the cost of a typical lap dance if I like the dancer. But what usually happens is that once they have gotten that lap dance its "Saya-nora Sucker!" I'm suddenly invisible and they don't even look at me the rest of the night.

    I also notice that a dancer on stage will give more attention and a more explicit show to a non-tipper, than the guys with numerous bills infront of them. Basically once they get the cash, they waste no more effort on you. This doesn't happen 100 % of the time, but often enough to make me think, "WTF?".

    I'm sure some dancers will take offense to this and counter that they don't work at a social club. Fair enough, but you can't blame the guys who see through your flakey psychology and take the path of least resistance for your attention. Granted once the transaction is made the dancer has no further obligation to the customer, but on the other hand, there is no sign at the entrance requiring a 2 lap dance minimum or a $20 tip minimum. The customer is not obligated to any individual dancer to hand them his money, especially when he realizes he can get more for less.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by EyesWideShut
    I have many times observed the mysterious stranger sitting for hours at an out of the way table in the back of the club, never dropping a dime for the dancers, and for some odd reason he is never lacking for company. At first I thought he is some regular or a friend of the owner that the dancers all know and are compelled to entertain.
    He's the drug dealer.

    (Note the winking smilie that means I'm joking, maybe.)

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Most dancers think customers are pathetic losers and some will treat us that way without even thinking about what they're doing.

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    Senior Member Super Cecil's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    it's very odd i've seen it happen at mine to.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Hmm, its before 10:00am on a Sunday morning and after a grueling (and hopefully profitable) Saturday night most of the ladies here are probably asleep. Sounds like a good time to start building that bomb shelter I always wanted before they wake up and read this.

    I can smell the lightning bolts now. Then again, it being Sunday and all...

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    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Unfortunately i have observed this happen as well, and sorry girls, but i have also tested the same theory as well. I just dont understand it

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    I think they should have a lapdance or other minimum. Something to keep the lurkers out. if they want guys to sit at the bar or in dark corners than wall off that section of the club so they cant see us for free.
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by EyesWideShut
    I repeated this several times. I had more social action than any of the chumps emptying their wallets on the stage and for private dances.
    I understand your experiment, but this is incredibly bad form in a SC. Since your intent was not to spend money, you were willfully wasting their time. I am sure you are smart enough to know that the "social interaction" was their attempt to sell you. You know: make money, pay their bills, put food on the table. Really disreputable stuff like that.

    As a certified "chump" by your definition, I can assure you that, over the long run, you are not getting more social interaction by not spending money. You can't see everything from where the zero spenders are sitting. This is particularly true if you think you can. Trust me on this.

    Your point about becoming invisible after the sale is your best observation. Some dancers are quick to jump up and take off, but this just hurts their long-term potential with regulars.

    One final thought: There is a whole different world that opens up to you if you treat the dancers exceptionally well. You might try this as your next experiment.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    you should next try the big tips equal big attention for you theory and stick to it.
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Owner
    Your point about becoming invisible after the sale is your best observation. Some dancers are quick to jump up and take off, but this just hurts their long-term potential with regulars.

    One final thought: There is a whole different world that opens up to you if you treat the dancers exceptionally well. You might try this as your next experiment.
    Good points. Sadly, many dancers are there *solely* for the money and just jump from one custy to the next. Not that I am not there for the money, but I believe in cultivating a relationship, esp. with customers that would like to spend their money on the dancers. I flirt and itneract with everyone, even those I'm not dancing for and it *really* pays off. The guys that flirt back, don't act like assholes, respect the dancers, and aren't afraid to lay down the cash will get loads of attention from me. When I close out, I don't just up and leave, and will even go back several times during the night to say "Hi, hope you enjoyed your dance(s)," to help build rapport.

    I've stolen.....I mean, um, gotten many regulars in our club to switch to me by doing that, and it has pissed off a couple of the other dancers. But, fuck 'em - if they wanna keep regulars they'll work for it like I do.

    For the lurkers, I will talk to them and flirt with them too even if they're not buying because in the long run they may come back and they will know that I am not going to high-pressure them. Even if they never buy a dance, I don't "waste" enough time on them to detract from my earnings for the night, but if I don't talk to them, the chances of them not buying a dance from me increases as I see it.

    I hope all of that makes sense! lol
    Never underestimate a hot chick with brains - even if she's nekkid!

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    they should raise covers and then pool the money for the girls. take 10 bucks for every customer and pool it hell on a saturday theyd have like 6k
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    This happens at my club. I used to be guilty of it - hanging with a guy who isn't buying just cause I liked the company and wanted a little break. But I try to not do that any more, because I don't want other guys to think I give it up for free. I'll do it to build repoire. I work days and purely bank off of regulars. So I do try to give them a lot of attention before, between and after dances.

    Sometimes in my club, guys sitting alone and not getting up tipping a lot are the prime lap dance buyers. So maybe that's why girls approach them, where as the stage tippers are the ones who are just there to sit at the rack and not get dances? I don't know. That's the best I can come up with right now!

    It would be better for all dancers though it we only entertained for compensation.
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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by EyesWideShut
    I'm sure some dancers will take offense to this and counter that they don't work at a social club. Fair enough, but you can't blame the guys who see through your flakey psychology and take the path of least resistance for your attention. Granted once the transaction is made the dancer has no further obligation to the customer, but on the other hand, there is no sign at the entrance requiring a 2 lap dance minimum or a $20 tip minimum. The customer is not obligated to any individual dancer to hand them his money, especially when he realizes he can get more for less.
    More of what? Dude, these women are trying to sell you something. Just because they don't blatantly ask for a dance doesn't mean they aren't trying to get you to buy one. Congratulations, if your idea of how to enjoy the SC experience is alone in a dark corner, well, you've cracked the code! Enjoy!

    Personally, I like to tip, buy a few dances and have some fun with the ladies. But hey, whatever works for ya!
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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    I hate to break it to you... But if you want the girl to stay with you, you need to keep tipping. I would think (based on my own experience) that the girl gets up and walks away because you gave her the impression that you weren't going to tip her anymore.

    During any given night the girl has only a limited number of sets and hours to make as much money as she possibly can. Wouldn't you do the same thing if you were at work? Working as a dancer is just like any other sales job... We work for commission (in a sense)... If we don't sell we don't make any money. I am fortunate that I don't have a house fee where I work, but may clubs do. The girls have to work intially to pay to work there and whatever they make above and beyond that is theirs to keep. Not to mention tip outs and whatever else...

    As for the guy who gets attention from a girl on stage, you may not realize he just slipped her $100 before her set... A lot of good customers don't tip on stage... I don't know why the girls stayed with you if you weren't tipping (especially if they don't know you as a regular), except maybe you were buying them a drink, food whatever, and they used you as a safe spot between hustling. I know I do that from time to time. If that's what you want to be fine... Whatever makes you happy...

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    One final thought: There is a whole different world that opens up to you if you treat the dancers exceptionally well. You might try this as your next experiment.
    Amen. The payoff using this strategy cannot be measured in dollars.



    <S> TOO
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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Blueyez has the healthiest and most rational attitude I've seen.
    The fact of the matter is that both sides of the equation are playing the game to their own benefit. The ones that give up more than is required of them are loosing to themselves or just being charitable, but no one should blame the other side for the disparity.


    amylynnej
    >>I think they should have a lapdance or other minimum. Something to keep the lurkers out. if they want guys to sit at the bar or in dark corners than wall off that section of the club so they cant see us for free. <<

    They do have a minimum - its called a cover charge. We pay $15 - $20 just to walk through the door. If you start adding on minimums the cover shoots up to $50 or more and you just lost 50 - 75% of your customers, and you will be dancing at an empty stage. The whole idea of the free market system is get the customers in the door, then sell their pants off. If you can't sell its not the customer's fault.

    amylynnej
    >>they should raise covers and then pool the money for the girls. take 10 bucks for every customer and pool it hell on a saturday theyd have like 6k<<

    Spoken like a true communist. It might have worked in Soviet Russia.

    yoda57us
    >>More of what? Dude, these women are trying to sell you something. Just because they don't blatantly ask for a dance doesn't mean they aren't trying to get you to buy one. Congratulations, if your idea of how to enjoy the SC experience is alone in a dark corner, well, you've cracked the code! Enjoy!

    Personally, I like to tip, buy a few dances and have some fun with the ladies. But hey, whatever works for ya!<<

    Not everybody goes to a SC just to rub flesh. I've had plenty of lap dances over the years - probably spent a few G's altogether. Lap dances are mental masturbation. When it comes to physical contact I want the real thing or nothing at all. I get more enjoyment from conversing and getting to know the ladies. Whether they choose to participate or not is up to them, nobody is forcing them... they do it on their own volition.

    >> amylynnej you should next try the big tips equal big attention for you theory and stick to it.<<
    My point is why should I stick to it when many of the dancers don't.

    >> bella622 I hate to break it to you... But if you want the girl to stay with you, you need to keep tipping.<<

    You're not getting it. What I'm saying is that despite what the dancers say the rules are, are not really the rules they are following. I don't expect a dancer to hang around me when I'm not buying, but they do anyway.
    I flat out refuse a lap dance with a straight "No Thankyou." If they still decide to hang around that is their issue.

    >>The Other Owner As a certified "chump" by your definition, I can assure you that, over the long run, you are not getting more social interaction by not spending money. You can't see everything from where the zero spenders are sitting. This is particularly true if you think you can. Trust me on this... There is a whole different world that opens up to you if you treat the dancers exceptionally well. You might try this as your next experiment.<<

    Only a chump would hand over his money because he "thinks" he will get something in return. This whole idea of dumping wads of cash on a dancer to get her to smother you and call you "sweatheart" is pathetic. You might look like "The Man" inside the club, but when the customers walk out the door they are all equal loosers, except some are now poorer loosers than others. "The Man" is the guy the dancer goes home to at night.

    Casual Observer
    >>Amen. The payoff using this strategy cannot be measured in dollars.<<

    Payoff? What payoff? A goodnight kiss that cost you $300 ? The girl is the one getting the payoff, you're just wallowing in an illusion. Dude you are paying women to like you and be your friend (just inside the club, of course). If they won't do it for the sake of who you are you've got nothing. Some strategy.
    What you are intimating at is verging on the "P" word, which legitimate dancers abhore, although some may completely personify.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    if youre too cheap to tip, I dont have time for you. Thats the free market system.
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Okay, now that I've had some shuteye.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyesWideShut
    I've been reading a lot of rants on the topic of customers who don't pay for anything at clubs, and generally agree with the dancer's sentiments - its an unspoken rule for society in general - if you don't pay, you don't play.
    The basic theory goes... the more you spend on a dancer, the more time she will spend with you, but strangely I often witness behavior from dancers that runs contrary to this philosophy. Sadly I've often observed poor chumps that zealously adhere to this rule tossing wads of cash onto the stage and remain companionless the entire night.
    I'm not debating that this isn't true, as there are a lot of dancers out there that don't make productive use of their time. Of course, just the same there are a lot of customers who don't make productive use of their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by bella622
    I hate to break it to you... But if you want the girl to stay with you, you need to keep tipping. I would think (based on my own experience) that the girl gets up and walks away because you gave her the impression that you weren't going to tip her anymore.
    I think his whole point was that the customer's who were getting the best bang for their buck were the ones tipping the least. I can't verify his story, theres seldom a club I've been to where I haven't seen this sort of thing go on.

    Of course, when I find these women on stage and ask them for a dance, its rather entertaining to watch them ask permission from the potato sack they've been giving free/deep discounted attention to all night if they can go make some real money.

    I don't know why the girls stayed with you if you weren't tipping (especially if they don't know you as a regular), except maybe you were buying them a drink, food whatever, and they used you as a safe spot between hustling. I know I do that from time to time. If that's what you want to be fine... Whatever makes you happy...
    Good possibilities, but my theory is that they stayed with him because some dancers have a bit of a problem about mixing business with pleasure. The idea that a young woman would rather spend time with someone who is more physically or socially pleasant, despite being less valuable monetarily, isn't that hard to ponder. Its particularly true in a profession where the gals get no formal sales training.

    Quote Originally Posted by amylynnej
    they should raise covers and then pool the money for the girls. take 10 bucks for every customer and pool it hell on a saturday theyd have like 6k
    Man, talk about a disincentive to come to the club. Why punish everybody for the actions of some? If I buy a dance or two, do I get my ten bucks back?
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    no you dont and thats very fair. it should never be a freeshow, now a better way is when a guy is just there sitting they either roust him out or make him contribute. he has a choice. but we should never be free entertainment.
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    I can only give you my UK experience. I'm a (genuine) friend of several dancers. I will give them a lift to and from work if it helps them. I'll often come into the venue where they are working and sit at the back. My dancer friend will join me to keep me company from time to time - and I'll always stand her a drink if she wants it. If she's not having a good time she'll also come to me for sympathy, to blow off steam, etc.

    She will not expect to be tipped by me - any more than I would expect her to cover my costs for driving her to/from venues. Her fellow dancers will not expect to be tipped either - it's a courtesy they extend to anyone who genuinely helps out a dancer.

    If I know the other dancers they'll get the odd drink, and if they want a few minutes peace and quiet with someone whom they trust to behave well towards them, that's fine with me. If they live close to my dancer friend then they'll get a lift home as well.

    Human nature being what it is, I'll enjoy the occasional brief look at an attractive naked woman, but I never stare - if I want to stare I'll come to the venue as a paying customer. If a dancer I know well is made uncomfortable by me seing her naked, then I make a deliberate point of keeping my eyes on her face. Her friendship is more important to me than me seeing her nude.

    I'm very discrete. I've got to know real, (not stage), names, addresses, phone numbers. I also know a lot of the behind the scenes gossip. I've got to know these things because my dancer friends know I can be trusted with that information.

    Finally, I have a friend who is a dancer, not a dancer who is a friend. I'm there because she has invited me along in order to make her working day a little easier - she knows I'm not fussed about seeing her naked. She also knows she has no need to conform to stereotype with me - I like her for who she is, not what she does.

    The guy at the back might not be what you think.

    Phil.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    he's a creep. or a cheapskate.
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by amylynnej
    no you dont and thats very fair. it should never be a freeshow,
    Oh, here we go with the free show mantra again.

    now a better way is when a guy is just there sitting they either roust him out or make him contribute. he has a choice. but we should never be free entertainment.
    Yes, but he could make the choice never to walk in. Then neither the bar nor the dancers can make any money off him.

    There's fair, and there's fair market value. A club employing your strategy would go broke in a hurry as would anyone working in it.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Quote Originally Posted by EyesWideShut
    >>The Other Owner As a certified "chump" by your definition, I can assure you that, over the long run, you are not getting more social interaction by not spending money. You can't see everything from where the zero spenders are sitting. This is particularly true if you think you can. Trust me on this... There is a whole different world that opens up to you if you treat the dancers exceptionally well. You might try this as your next experiment.<<

    Only a chump would hand over his money because he "thinks" he will get something in return. This whole idea of dumping wads of cash on a dancer to get her to smother you and call you "sweatheart" is pathetic. You might look like "The Man" inside the club, but when the customers walk out the door they are all equal loosers, except some are now poorer loosers than others. "The Man" is the guy the dancer goes home to at night.
    What we, as customers, are doing is paying a dancer for her time while she is at work. Dancers get paid for their time-it doesn't matter if it's stage time, LD's, VIP or even conversation. Their time IS what we get in return for our investment. It's not about being called "sweatheart", it's about paying an entertainer for entertaining you.

    The only "losers" are the guys who shell out the cash with unrealistic expectations. The rest of us are simply paying for entertainment the same way we would pay to play golf or to attend a sporting event.

    Since I'm not sitting next to you when these women keep stopping by for no money I'm not going to argue their motives with you. If you are enjoying your experience that's fine but please don't insinuate that you have one up on the rest of us simply because you are cheap.
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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    well said master yoda
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: The Pay-for-Play Paradox

    Only a chump would hand over his money because he "thinks" he will get something in return. This whole idea of dumping wads of cash on a dancer to get her to smother you and call you "sweatheart" is pathetic. You might look like "The Man" inside the club, but when the customers walk out the door they are all equal loosers, except some are now poorer loosers than others. "The Man" is the guy the dancer goes home to at night.
    I won't presume to speak for TOO, only for myself here, and I know you're new to the site--and obviously SCing, so if this comes off as harsh just eat it.

    You're either particuarly ignorant of how SCs work or just obtuse in general, perhaps both. TOO's point--and mine--is that you don't curry favor with dancers by wasting their time; you gain their attention (and not infrequently their affections) by showing them you value their time and effort, placing you in a different category than the rest of the clueless and stingy masses that show up to nurse $2 beers at the rail while the girls are on the stage bruising their knees, waiting for said beernursers to tip them. Valuing their time and effort, and showing respect for them as individuals is half the equation.

    The rest of that equation is what you as an individual bring to the table and whether or not that interests the dancer(s). This is the world TOO refers to, one with which you're clearly not familiar.

    Casual Observer
    >>Amen. The payoff using this strategy cannot be measured in dollars.<<

    Payoff? What payoff? A goodnight kiss that cost you $300 ? The girl is the one getting the payoff, you're just wallowing in an illusion. Dude you are paying women to like you and be your friend (just inside the club, of course). If they won't do it for the sake of who you are you've got nothing. Some strategy.
    What you are intimating at is verging on the "P" word, which legitimate dancers abhore, although some may completely personify.
    You don't have OTC fun by acting the parsimonious, brooding tough guy in the corner that refuses to buy dances because "he knows that dancers are just all about the money." In the same vein, acting the fat, balding, toothlessly slobbering PL/RIL with unrealistic expectations in the unrealistic environs of the SC isn't going to endear them to OTC activities either. What I am intimating, oh, ye with brilliant SC insight, is that treating the girls well ITC is not only fundamental to an enjoyable SC experience, but it's key to seeing them OTC, if both parties are so inclined.

    Oh, and learn how to use the quote function.

    Welcome to SW.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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