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Thread: Slowly we become a dictatorship

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Slowly we become a dictatorship

    The Inter-American Telecommunication Commission meets three times a year in various cities across the Americas to discuss such dry but important issues as telecommunications standards and spectrum regulations. But for this week's meeting in Guatemala City, politics has barged onto the agenda. At least four of the two dozen or so U.S. delegates selected for the meeting, sources tell TIME, have been bumped by the White House because they supported John Kerry's 2004 campaign.

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Read the FCC guidelines:

    7.3 If a Sector Member or Associate is unable to support fully the national position at an international meeting, or if a separate (non-U.S.) contribution is submitted which has not been approved in National Committee, representatives from that member organization should expect exclusion from the U.S. Delegation (accredited or otherwise). When necessary, this unapproved documentation or related expressed views may be repudiated by the U.S. Delegation.
    If you don't support the US standards board, as Nokia does not, you can't come along for the ride. This is the rule as setup by the FCC.

    All conspiracy theorists and Chicken Littles please return to your regularly scheduled fantasies.

    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Gotta go with CO, on this one.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Read the FCC guidelines:



    If you don't support the US standards board, as Nokia does not, you can't come along for the ride. This is the rule as setup by the FCC.

    All conspiracy theorists and Chicken Littles please return to your regularly scheduled fantasies.

    He says as he takes off his shoes around machine gun toting guards requesting his papers.

    What do you say about this country's prison population being the largest in the world - and yet we call ourselves the freeist people on earth?

    Or how the republicans are attempting to silence disent in so many areas from the senate floor to the TV stations?

    So many of us are blind. We whittle away our rights and our expectations because of this or because of that. We rationalize our own imprisonment.

    We accept the sapping of 30 percent 40 percent even nearly 50 percent of our hard earned incomes.

    Our kids are called on the carpet over aspirin and other ridiculous "zero tolerance" conditions.

    Both parties are responsible for this in my mind. Both parties are just as dangerous.

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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Republicrats...

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    What do you say about this country's prison population being the largest in the world - and yet we call ourselves the freeist people on earth?
    How about this ... if it hadn't been for the secondary effects of Democratic social welfare programs of the past 40 years, secondary effects which forced fathers out of low income households in order to guarantee eligibility for welfare payments for the mother and children, we wouldn't have developed a distorted culture which promotes the #1 occupation of young US urban males to be 'inmate'. Also, another reason that the US has a fairly high percentage of incarcerations is that unlike certain european/asian countries we actually follow a republican tradition and prosecute most criminals ! Or how about this ... if Democrats weren't ardently opposed to the death penalty the prison population could be significantly lower. As a finisher, how about the fact that unlike many other countries our police generally don't kill suspects during attempted arrests, such that they actually make it to court and to jail.

    Or how the republicans are attempting to silence disent in so many areas from the senate floor to the TV stations?
    I think that you better do a little more research before making such an incorrect claim regarding TV exposure



    Besides, if Democrats can't get their point across in the news for free via such 'objective' mainstream news organs as the New York Times, they can always count on George Soros to throw a few more millions at MoveOn.org to BUY air time for them.

    As to 'silencing' dissent in the senate, the 'nuclear' option would not silence dissent it would only prevent a never-ending amount of dissent by a minority of senators from preventing a vote from eventually being taken. This would also only apply to appointees and confirmation votes, not to potential legislation, as provided for in the US constitution.

    We accept the sapping of 30 percent 40 percent even nearly 50 percent of our hard earned incomes.
    Ah, the partisan subject most near and dear to my purse ! Actually, most upstate New Yorkers keep voting republican in an attempt to rein in social spending and tax increases on 'middle class' New Yorkers. However, the downstaters consisting of a large block of low income social benefit recipients, civil service/union workers who enjoy very high salaries at the expense of very high taxes and prices, and a large block of the 'rich' who are able to effectively escape actually having to pay the higher taxes they vote for via lawyers, accountants, and tax shelters, always form a coalition Democratic majority and outvote us !

    New York has reached the proverbial tipping point where voters have realized their ability to vote themselves increased benefits from the public treasury, leaving those New York residents who disagree with the only true option of 'voting with their feet' by moving to other states whose tax and spend policies are less 'generous'. New census data shows this to be exactly what's happening i.e. downstate NY population grew by some 35% during the last decade but upstate NY population actually experienced a slight decline, primarily due to democratic tax and environmental policies driving industries out of the state and the resulting evaporation of tens of thousands of 'middle class' private sector jobs.

    Both parties are responsible for this in my mind. Both parties are just as dangerous.
    Perhaps ... but certainly not in equal share.

    Finally, in keeping with the title of this thread, there is essentially no difference between a Mussolini (i.e. dictator to the political right) and a Stalin (i.e. a dictator to the political left). The potential for lost 'democracy' exists equally whenever gov't policies shift too far from the center in either direction. As an example I'll mention that the 'lost rights' you refer to conspicuously omitted gun rights, private property rights etc. from the list. Some of us consider these 'politically INcorrect' rights to be just as important !


    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-26-2005 at 12:24 AM.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    "effects which forced fathers out of low income households in order to guarantee eligibility for welfare payments for the mother and children"

    FORCED them out ??? you mean the lack of good paying jobs which allowed a family to do as well OFF welfare and crime as ON had nothing to do with it? Of course, alot of those men simply ran at the word "Pregnant"

    "a distorted culture which promotes the #1 occupation of young US urban males to be 'inmate'."

    Besides the fact I doubt it's the #1 occupation...I wonder again if the decline in relative standard of living from "good jobs" (now a term used for $6 an hour retail rather than factory or trade work) has anything to do with it.

    "Besides, if Democrats can't get their point across in the news for free via such 'objective' mainstream news organs as the New York Times, they can always count on George Soros to throw a few more millions at MoveOn.org to BUY air time for them."

    Don't worry, the Republicans have a 1/4 BILLION dollar federal PR budget on hand...and plenty of PACs of their own (while MoveOn is by far the most visible Democrat utility of its type)...it'll be allright. Both sides will get an substantial amount of bullshit shoveled.

    "keep voting republican in an attempt to rein in social spending and tax increases on 'middle class' New Yorkers"
    Yes...rein in social spending and taxes, increase subsidies to corporations, promote higher deficits and lower relative wages...screw environmental and worker safety...limit the power of the people to organize and fight back...these are all things we should support. (this sarcasm brought to you by lack of sleep)

    "The potential for lost 'democracy' exists equally whenever gov't policies shift too far from the center in either direction."
    YES...which becomes far too easy when people rely on labels and stereotypes (Dem/Rep...Conservative/Liberal) or any one source of information (media vs reading the views themselves) and don't examine the people they are supporting , their beliefs and actions, and the motivation of those directly and carefully before voting

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    Veteran Member Hello~Kitty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap
    Republicrats...
    LMAO ! Good one.

    I'll refrain from adding too much more about Melonie's post as D.D is doing a fine job of exposing it for what it is.... political bias.
    Example of discrimination (Imho):

    the only prudent way to treat Islamics in the US and western europe today is along the same vein as Russians and Eastern Europeans were treated during the 'cold war' days - with some degree of suspicion warranted until proven otherwise !

    http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44590




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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    ... At least four of the two dozen or so U.S. delegates selected for the meeting, sources tell TIME, have been bumped by the White House because they supported John Kerry's 2004 campaign.
    So what? One of the privileges of winning is that you get to appoint your own people. It's not dictatorship, its democracy.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    What do you say about this country's prison population being the largest in the world - and yet we call ourselves the freeist people on earth?
    So we should permit dangerous criminals to walk the streets in the name of freedom? Fuck that. Reforming drug policy to reduce non-violent incarcerations is a great idea, but I have zero problem throwing criminals in prison; better in cells than on the street.

    Or how the republicans are attempting to silence disent in so many areas from the senate floor to the TV stations?
    The Senate is supposed to advise and consent judicial nominations on the basis of competency and legal qualifications not ideological litmus tests. What the Senate Dems are doing is unprecedented.

    Funny, I seem to find more choice in television programming in the last ten years (since the GOP captured both houses). Maybe your remote is broken...

    We accept the sapping of 30 percent 40 percent even nearly 50 percent of our hard earned incomes.
    This is easy to accept when 80% of the tax burden is being shouldered by 20% of the tax base. Basically, most of the population is enjoying getting something for nothing.

    Our kids are called on the carpet over aspirin and other ridiculous "zero tolerance" conditions.
    Thank your local NEA union and the ATLA.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    The right to assembly is only if you are allowed to assemble by the state.

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    .

    What do you say about this country's prison population being the largest in the world - and yet we call ourselves the freeist people on earth?
    I'd tell the world that we a very forgiving nation--We put people in prison that other country's in the world would've killed off a long time ago.

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    I'm having a great deal of difficulty following any semblance of a logical counter...argument here. First you start out with ...

    the lack of good paying jobs which allowed a family to do as well OFF welfare and crime as ON had nothing to do with it?
    Good paying jobs for 'unskilled' workers historically has required factory work (as you yourself posted). Hmmm I wonder what happened to all of those factory jobs which no longer exist.

    rein in social spending and taxes ... increase subsidies to corporations ... screw environmental and worker safety ... ...limit the power of the people to organize
    Yup, high business taxes, last decimal point environmental laws, mountains of OSHA paperwork, and unreasonable union demands have indeed been contributing factors which prompted many of those factory jobs to relocate to red states or more recently outside of the USA.

    My point is that the logical case can easily be made that liberal policies re taxes, environment, unions etc. were a direct cause of dropping wages for 'unskilled' workers, therefore a direct cause of rising welfare dependency, therefore a direct cause of the current urban situation re many young urban males turning to crime and being incarcerated. I find it ironic that liberals sanctimoniously complain about this problem, yet take no responsibility for being the problem's primary cause.

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    My point regarding the families and pay scale goes to your concept of certain jobs (likely the ones those lower-income fathers had) NOT ADDING ENOUGH VALUE to be worth a reasonable wage. Your own example shows how this can lead to people choosing welfare over work, (your term is " forced fathers out of low income households").

    Logical case DOES NOT equal reality....even if we accept your case as logical

    I refuse to get back on the circular argument we had before...but want to remind you of the premise:If American consumers/voters/government simply applied the same rules on imported products (regarding their production) as we do for domestic products, then overseas plants would demonstrate less of a savings (still some, due to lower labor costs abroad for reasonable living standards) and we might maintain more work here. Personally, I'd hate to go back to the polluted "black lung" environment before regulations and OSHA and worker safety were a concern.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    My point regarding the families and pay scale goes to your concept of certain jobs (likely the ones those lower-income fathers had) NOT ADDING ENOUGH VALUE to be worth a reasonable wage. Your own example shows how this can lead to people choosing welfare over work, (your term is " forced fathers out of low income households").
    You've got absolute agreement on my part where this fundamental point is concerned. We begin to disagree when the discussions turns towards the question of whether unskilled workers who do not add enough value via their services to justify a 'decent' paycheck should be allowed to see their standard of living 'rebalanced' to a level which equals the value they DO produce, or whether tons of tax money should be collected from people who are more skilled and more productive and in turn 'doled' out unskilled workers. In other words we disagree on the principle of transfer of wealth, i.e. reducing the standard of living of skilled and productive workers via high taxes, and transferring that wealth to subsidize the standard of living of unskilled non-productive workers (who may or may not choose to still work and risk that their benefit eligibility for gov't administered transfer of wealth programs will be lost).

    Again I point out that it was LBJ and Democrats who set these transfer of wealth programs into motion, and it is blue states who persist in funding them at high levels .... ergo the Democrats are the root cause of the problem you're complaining about.

    If you examine peripheral issues, like for example WHY so many young urban males are not higher skilled or better qualified, you find the same situation in regard to unexpected consequences of supposedly enlightened and compassionate liberal policies. i.e. liberal policies which prevent schools from maintaining an orderly classroom conducive to learning (i.e. yesterday's 5 year old being handcuffed by cops news blurb, because courts and school admin policies now absolutely preclude physical discipline of students by teachers), liberal policies which condoned 'social promotion' based on student's age despite the fact that the student has not met the learning/testing requirements of the previous grade, liberal policies which de-emphasized math and hard science in favor of english and social science ....
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-27-2005 at 10:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    "if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well"

    also means

    "If a job is worth doing (or if the ends to which that job is required are worth doing) it is worth making sure the people doing that job can live to continue doing it"

    no doubt, some welfare pros do better NOT working than I do working (or that some unskilled/semiskilled people do at all) but NO ONE should be asked to work for less than it costs to live and continue being available for work. Simply poor business practice to do so.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    This is easy to accept when 80% of the tax burden is being shouldered by 20% of the tax base. Basically, most of the population is enjoying getting something for nothing.
    What is "most of the population" getting, exactly? Affordable health care? Affordable education? Affordable housing?

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    The income alone isn't the true measure of the taxation. Don't forget the taxes "buried" within goods and the taxation effect of inflation.


    FDR was far closer to a dictator than Bush could even dream to be. Lincoln probably came to closest to become an American Caesar.

    I certainly don't support the FCC; it gets a nice big thick section in my book on regulation coming up. We need to de-nationalize the airwaves and establish private property in them for any semblance of free speech on them. THere was no need to have them nationalized at all, and their being so was the result of a, gasp, conspiracy, led by Mr. Hoover.

    Prison popular issue is directly related to the War on Drugs and other wars on victimless "crimes." IF you turn non-aggressive acts into crimes, yes, your prison population will explode. The Welfare state certainly does not help, and both sides of the political aisle have nurtered both of the forementioned.

    Republicans are far more dangerous. Democrats have TRADITIONALLY expanded the government far less(yes, LESS) than republicans, have been for lower tariffs and trade restrictions, and are usually opposed by conservatives(a good thing). Republicans use the rhetoric of free trade, free markets, and small government, but tend to do the opposite in office. Bush and Reagan were far worse than Bill Clinton in terms of expanding government. Dubya is the only president since Adams to not veto a single spending bill, last i checked.

    Wealth transfer programs got started long before LBJ. They got started with the Constitution, all through the Whig Era, the Early REpublican era, and have always been the primary purpose of the Republican party. The Democrats are fairly new to this game, only getting in it in the early 20th century.

    Public school is working as intended. The Founders of public schooling in America were pretty overt about the goals of public school. Education was always a tertiary goal.

    Businesses should pay people what they are worth. paying them more than that is going to mean losing money. There is no divine decree that every job should provide a "livable wage." Some should probably provide quite a bit less. The price system for the labor market is very important, trying to distort it with intervention just leads to problems.

    The reason why healthcare, education, and housing are not affordable is located in and around 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

    Most of the public is hardly getting something for nothing. The most unfair tax of all, inflation, ends up taxing the poor and lower income people far more than wealthier individuals, along with the taxes buried in goods, which end up becoming "regressive" most times. Most of the public is paying something FOR nothing, while the parasitic classes get something for nothing.
    In addition, many times the poor subsidize the rich through bankruptcy laws, how the streets are "priced", education(especially gov higher education), and overt and covert corporate welfare.
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    What is "most of the population" getting, exactly? Affordable health care? Affordable education? Affordable housing?
    Well, in essence, yes they are ... in blue states with generous social benefits programs at least. Health care is very affordable if it's 100% paid for by MedicAid. Public school education is very affordable if you don't have to pay any school tax (almost always assessed exclusively on real estate). Housing is also very affordable if it is federal/state owned or HUD subsidized. In New York at least, some 25% percent of the population is enjoying one or more of these benefits.

    But I have to agree with Sh0t about 'hidden' subsidies benefitting other 'classes' as well i.e. the new bankruptcy law in particular.

    I'm not so sure that I agree on the effects of inflation. Logic dictates that inflation hurts savers (who see their hard earned money decline in value/spending power month by month), while benefitting borrowers (who see the relative burden of their constant dollar monthly payments decline month by month).

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    Default Re: Slowly we become a dictatorship

    Inflation does indeed help SOME borrowers, before the inflation premium is tacked on. In the long run borrowers are hurt by it too as the inflation premiums raise the interest rate charged, and the borrowers are also in a more volatile position when the bust comes.
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