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Thread: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

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    Default infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    ... JFK enacted the first 'minimum wage' law, establishing $1.25/hour as the lowest acceptable rate of pay regardless of the actual 'value' created/added by the job.

    Arguably, this date also constituted the 'high water mark' in regard to the standard of living of 'ordinary' Americans, which has been declining ever since.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    And it marked the beginning of our high teenage unemployment rate.

    On the whole, the teenage unemployment rate moves in tandem with changes in the real minimum wage.

    In other words, every time the minimum wage (adjusted for inflation) goes up, teenage unemployment goes up with it. The minimum wage law is yet another example of good intentions gone bad. Instead of lifting all workers to a higher level, it actually raised the first rung of the employment ladder so high that many low-skilled or unskilled workers can't even reach it.

    Why the Minimum Wage Law Causes Unemployment
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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Yes, we see how well the lack of a minimum wage law benefits so many countries - oh wait - their all third world nations!

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    SO the fact that costs have risen faster than wages is a reason to attack minimum wage why?

    As for your "value added" theory....have you ever considered whether a tool (whatever its type or cost) truly adds the value it costs to the process? No...because without the tool you can't make the product. Same with people - they cost what it takes to keep the supply comng and of good quality, else you're outta business

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    It's good for people to starve as they work. Companies can do much better with underpaid labor. We wouldn't be outsourcing to Mexico and China and Indonesia any longer. Our workers would enjoy those countries' standard of living, and our corporations would reap more dividends for the stockholders.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    It's good for people to starve as they work. Companies can do much better with underpaid labor. We wouldn't be outsourcing to Mexico and China and Indonesia any longer. Our workers would enjoy those countries' standard of living, and our corporations would reap more dividends for the stockholders.
    As a stockholder, I can speak to this being AN OUTRIGHT LIE.

    More like bonus money for the CEO's dwiddling the company down the drain like so many are.

    It is pretty hard to squeeze a dividend out of some of these company's who claim they are loosing marketshare, money, laying off people, and closing offices - but they always have money for the CEO and his buddies to share a bonus or a raise.

    These guys are looting the country of it's science and technology by sending investment for that to India and China, the money out of corporations it took decades to build by selling off pieces and giving themselves stratospheric pay, disenfranchising Americans by kicking them off to the side for foreign workers...

    That Walmart goon said it best, "We don't have a responsibility to the country or our employees. We have a responsibility to our shareholders."

    I sure hope there comes a time when corporations start feeling a responsibility for the country and it's citizens.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Until americans are willing to stand up for each other, and take the interpersonal and community ethics they have at home to work/shareholder meetings/voting booth/public office it will be a tough sell.

    Of course, when it goes like that (occasionally) things go SO much better and are more balanced

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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    We had forms of minimum wage before JFK.


    Keep in mind the real minimum wage is zero dollars an hour, which is the rate many end up getting due to minimum wage laws. The min wage law is a purely prohibitive law. It simply outlaws wage contracts below a certain amount. If an employee is not worth this new amount, most of the times, he is fired and will be making the real minimum wage afterwards.

    For those of you who feel minimum wage does not cause unemployment, I ask you a question: Why stop at 7 dollars an hour(or whatever)? Why not one million dollars an hour? If it doesn't cause unemployment, why not?

    There are three primary factions that support minimum wage laws(who know what they are doing unlike Ben Affleck)

    1. Businesses and their croonies in higher standard-of-living areas who wish to use the minimum wage as kind of a stealth tariff, impossing higher costs on their competitors in lower cost-of-living areas(such as New England versus the South)(Sen Javitz got caught admitting this, and Ted Kennedy is the forerunner today).

    2. Unions that want to use minimum wage to outlaw their competition in the labor market

    3. "Bismarckian" types who want to use minimum wage to outlaw jobs for the specific goal of creating an underclass where they have political support. Many black politicians fall into this catagory. One has to ask the question, "Are they stupid? Or are they evil?" Because they are either one or the other and I don't bet much on them being stupid.
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    perfect summary, Sh0t ! The only thing you didn't come across clearly on was that the real 'minimum wage' is the amount of paycheck required to provide a person with a better standard of living than they can achieve by simply sitting on their but collecting benefits from gov't social programs !

    Discrete, I support your utopian ideal, I really do. Unfortunately, in the real world, those on the upper end will be reluctant to 'share', and those on the lower end will 'game the system', such that any real world planned economy usually results in terrible productivity, widespread shortages of quality goods, and a lower standard of living for everybody.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Unfortunately, in the real world, those on the upper end will be reluctant to 'share',

    Sh0t's assertions aside, none of which apply to me or the people I know (so there are more than three reasons, making it a little less than a perfect summary), I always figured that the above statement was a prime motivating factor for having a minimum wage.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Excellent post Sh0t!!!

    Another reason union's push for a higher minimum wage is that some union contracts are tied to the minimum wage. Those union's who's contracts are not literally tied to the minimum wage frequently use the minimum wage in their bargaining.

    JZ: you said, "Sh0t's assertions aside, none of which apply to me or the people I know..." but I noticed you didn't answer his question which was:

    Why stop at 7 dollars an hour(or whatever)? Why not one million dollars an hour? If it doesn't cause unemployment, why not?

    DD, wanna take that one?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Minimum wage is just that...the minimum required for a worker to spend time doing a job. As we have accepted (even the initial post here asserts) that pay has not kept up with costs...then it follows that workers are NOT being paid equal to what it costs them to live.

    Put another way...dividing basic rent, food, etc (and including a minimum of "fun" costs as humans need recreation) by the hours worked...today's minimum wage workers aren't equalling that number. Briefly, in the 8 hours they spend working, they're LOSING MONEY (lleaving nothing which with to pay for additonal training...and likely meaning they work overtime just to survive, eliminating the option for additional training).

    The purpose of a minimum wage is to eliminate that problem

    Why we have that problem (and most othhers) is that people DON't follow the golden rule, and tennd to "depersonalize" things whenever possible. Think about the minimum wage worker, the billionaire, etc as people...understand (as best we can) the challenges they face, and "do unto others as you would have done to you" in similar circumstances.

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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Workers shouldn't be paid what it costs for them to live. They should be paid what they are worth to the employer. Some jobs simply don't produce enough to be worth a "living wage" or whatever.

    If your productivity is only worth 5 bucks an hour to the firm, why should they pay you 10 bucks an hour? That would be ridiculous and that company would quickly be out of business. THe price system in labor is extremely important. It gives a very clear signal: these jobs are NOT that valuable to consumers, so do something else if you want to make more money(and better serve others).

    The last thing the poor need is to have jobs outlawed due to the above. Instead of minimum wages, those concerned should promote abolishing the Fed, a real step that would help the poor tremendously as they pay the most by taxation via inflation. Minimum wage laws hurt the very people they are obstensible supposed to help: the marginal workers.


    Minimum wage is also a way to subsidize mechanization and automation. If I have a choice between buying a machine that can perform a job, or hire 2-3 peolpe to perform a job, I will weigh what it will cost versus what my profit will be. If the government comes in and says that now i am FORCED to pay those workers more than my projection, I will simply skip them and just get the machine(it has become relatively cheaper compared to the human workers).

    The purpose of a minimum is VERY clear: all it does is outlaw wage contracts below a certain level, period. That's it. It is a purely prohibitive law.
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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    Minimum wage is just that...the minimum required for a worker to spend time doing a job.
    Uh....why isn't the worker allowed to make that determination for herself? Why is it government's business?

    Still waiting for the answer to Sh0t's question:

    Why stop at 7 dollars an hour(or whatever)? Why not one million dollars an hour? If it doesn't cause unemployment, why not?


    dd? JZ? Anyone?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    D, I answered that question with my formula. read it again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    Workers shouldn't be paid what it costs for them to live. They should be paid what they are worth to the employer. Some jobs simply don't produce enough to be worth a "living wage" or whatever.
    Won't our economy quickly go out of business if that is the case...since SO MANY industries depend on these "valueless" jobs (retail, manufacturing, housecleaning, etc.)'


    sorry, keeping workers alive (unless you support slavery...and even then they gotta live) is simply a cost of doing business

  16. #16
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Still waiting for the answer to Sh0t's question:
    Why stop at 7 dollars an hour(or whatever)? Why not one million dollars an hour? If it doesn't cause unemployment, why not?
    dd? JZ? Anyone?
    Sorry, I'm trying to work today at more than minimum wage. (I pay my part-time student grunts $11/hour.)(And I like to think I'm competitive.)

    One reason is that I doubt that the government adopts Sh0t's analysis. I don't. I'm a business owner, too.

    We're making this too complicated. I see minimum wage as a balance to afford citizenry a level of income under which they can at least eat, live under a roof, and not go naked. It's not a philosophy to say, "Whatever it costs, that can be paid." Why not a million dollars an hour? Because at a minimum level, it's absurd.

    Does minimum wage cause unemployment for people who would otherwise make less than minimum wage? I'm sure it does. I'm sure there are employers out there who say, "Hm, I'd like to pay that working mom $4/hour, but at $6/hour, I'll just spread the work out with existing labor." It's a balance of interests. Being on the public dole isn't good - trying to feed a kid at $4/hour isn't good - being able to get a job at $6 isn't good, but it's better.

    We're making this too complicated. Obviously, if employers were able to pay slave wages, they'd do so. Minimum wage prevents them from doing so.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    Won't our economy quickly go out of business if that is the case...since SO MANY industries depend on these "valueless" jobs (retail, manufacturing, housecleaning, etc.)
    I don't think anyone said those were "valueless" jobs. The point is, when the government sets the value for those jobs at a rate higher than the employer is willing, or can afford to pay, those jobs cease to exist. That's a fact that cannot be disputed.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    JZ's got it....damn, well put!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I don't think anyone said those were "valueless" jobs. The point is, when the government sets the value for those jobs at a rate higher than the employer is willing, or can afford to pay, those jobs cease to exist. That's a fact that cannot be disputed.
    Sure it can...if it was fact, wouldn't those jobs have already ceased to exist or be o the decline? They're not gone! still gotta have people cleaning, pumping sewers, doing all those jobs that without min. wage, employers wouldn't deem as adding enough value to meet that wage.

    So much for that theory.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    and where's the logic in letting the person with the most to gain by lowering labor costs - therefore providing higher margin or more competitive andvantage to his/her pocket* - be the key decidng factor in the amount that labor has value?

    What about the society who has to pick up the slack of underpaid people resorting to disruptive things (taken to the extreme, we're talking crime/violence/slums/riots) or abandoning their kids 16 hours a day to keep 2 jobs without childcare...don't we get a vote?

    What about the worker, feeling pressured from both sides, wanting to live not just survive but without the ability to or knowledge of how to stand up....besides resorting to "labor riots" as we had in the 19/20th centuries?

    One vote in 3 now makes a majority? A biased majority that profits more per penny of labor saved than anyone else (customer included)

    * Why the employer makes more than everyone else(customer, society/taxpayer) with every dollar saved in labor or costs:
    ~ If an company makes 100 widgets an hour...and has 10 employees..that's an average of 10widgets/hr for every employee. Doesn't matter if they sweep a floor or make a widget.
    ~ Lower labor rates by $1 per employee...that saves the employer $1 if he doesn't pass on the savings but keeps profit ... If the savings is passed on (to make sales more competitive or plentiful) the customer only saves 1c because 100 widgets were made in that hour...the savings gets divided equally
    ~ Therefore, the only person who really decides is the one most biased..unless the system is BALANCED by the involvement of societal standards (protecting the salaries from going below levels which allow workers to sustain themselves) and (appropriate and reasonable) worker organization. Then three balanced parties really can work it out

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    wouldn't those jobs have already ceased to exist or be o the decline? They're not gone! still gotta have people cleaning, pumping sewers, doing all those jobs that without min. wage, employers wouldn't deem as adding enough value to meet that wage.
    Actually, sewer plumbers earn top dollar because very few of them are willing to work in all that shit ! As to cleaners and other unskilled low value jobs, technically they haven't gone away ... but the probably aren't paying minimum wage either (reference WalMart's cleaning subcontractor busted for employing illegal aliens).

    * Why the employer makes more than everyone else(customer, society/taxpayer) with every dollar saved in labor or costs:
    ~ If an company makes 100 widgets an hour...and has 10 employees..that's an average of 10widgets/hr for every employee. Doesn't matter if they sweep a floor or make a widget.
    ~ Lower labor rates by $1 per employee...that saves the employer $1 if he doesn't pass on the savings but keeps profit ... If the savings is passed on (to make sales more competitive or plentiful) the customer only saves 1c because 100 widgets were made in that hour...the savings gets divided equally
    ~ Therefore, the only person who really decides is the one most biased..unless the system is BALANCED by the involvement of societal standards (protecting the salaries from going below levels which allow workers to sustain themselves) and (appropriate and reasonable) worker organization. Then three balanced parties really can work it out
    Again, a wonderful utopian theory ... which could only work if US borders are sealed such that foreign made widgets can't be imported. I'm talking about widgets made by a factory which requires 20 or 30 or 50 employees to produce 100 widgets per hour instead of 10, but employees who will accept 1/10th of the US minimum wage as an acceptable local standard of living so the company can afford to sell their widgets in the US for 1/2 the price of US made widgets and still turn a profit (and with low taxes, lenient or nonexistant labor and environmental laws, and low or nonexistant insurance and retirement costs helping them keep those profits).

    Obviously one option you have proposed in the past is tariffs i.e. tax the imports so they will sell for the same price as US mace widgets. But this means that every American must pay twice the 'actual' price for a new widget in order to guarantee the US manufacturer will be profitable. Spread this principle over cars, computers, clothes etc. and it has the overall effect of cutting every American's purchasing power and standard of living in half to subsidize non-competitive US businesses.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-06-2005 at 03:34 PM.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Interesting, in the early industrial revolution we had "company" housing and stores...and many people ended up in debt after every paycheck because costs outpaced salaries. This kept a great working "underclass" because people couldn't afford to quit

    Sound familiar?

    What's the average per-capita personal debt in America? Bankruptcy rate? and people are supposed to risk going without jobs?


    Not exactly analagous, but interesting.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    As to cleaners and other unskilled low value jobs, technically they haven't gone away ... but the probably aren't paying minimum wage either (reference WalMart's cleaning subcontractor busted for employing illegal aliens).
    And if we cracked down on that creation of a broke, trapped underclass that uses our societal resources - companies would not clean their businesses? C'mon.

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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    And if we cracked down on that creation of a broke, trapped underclass that uses our societal resources - companies would not clean their businesses? C'mon.
    Retailers would clean them, yes. Offices and factories would also clean them ... while making plans to relocate outside the USA to reduce operating costs like cleaning.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    Not if we require that all facilities producing goods for the US provide safe (which includes clean) facilities for all workers and communities

    Besides, how would WalMart relocate overseas to save cleaning costs? How would millions of businesses who need to be here solve the problem? Close, or start paying employees real wages?

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    Default Re: infamous historical anniversary, 44 years ago ...

    I notice a pattern here. Those here who oppose min. wage also oppose gay marriage and also express anti Muslim sentiments.

    Ask yourselves what is the common bond ?

    Min. wage jobs are typical held by immigrants or ethnic minorities
    Homosexuals are also considered to be minorites
    Muslims are also considered minorites in the US

    The common thread is discrimination of people considered minorites in the US


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