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Thread: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    Re: The War In Colombia

    As all too often seems to be the case, we're on the wrong side of this one, we're going eventually lose and, once again, virtually the entire populace of a nation is going to hate our guts and absolutely distrust us for the next 30-40 years. You'd think we'd learn at some point!

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ar_woes/nc:734
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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    And FARC is the right side?

    We have to pick a side; Marxist narcostate or authoritarian democracy with anti-FARC paramilitary factions. Ignoring the perils of unrestricted drug-financed paramilitary operations cannot possibly illicit benefits to the world at large.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    We've been on the wrong side of every war for at least 2 centuries.

    The proper side is to be out of the war. As I can tell, we've lost every war outside of the Revolution.

    "We have to pick a side" is a false dilemna. If you want to participate in the conflict in Columbia, feel free to use your own body and resources.
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    ^ Already done my time in service, thanks.

    Your isolationist attitude simply doesn't jibe with geopolitical realities.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    And FARC is the right side?

    We have to pick a side; Marxist narcostate or authoritarian democracy with anti-FARC paramilitary factions. Ignoring the perils of unrestricted drug-financed paramilitary operations cannot possibly illicit benefits to the world at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    "We have to pick a side" is a false dilemna. If you want to participate in the conflict in Columbia, feel free to use your own body and resources.

    I'm not entirely convinced there was any real need to "pick a side" at all in this one, much less become actively engaged in the fighting - especially since our primary reason for doing so is the "drug war." That said, to the extent we're going to do so anyway, FARC's politics are typical fare for any group seeking the backing of the populace in a guerilla war to overthrow the existing government in a poor country and, as has generally proven to be the case, will likely become much less extreme in practice once they've succeeded and find themselves actually having to run the place. As for the "cartels," or whatever they're being referred to as these days, is more a case of "making the most of a golden opportunity" for them than any long-term expectations of actually participating in governing the place.

    In my view, the better strategy here for the U.S., especially given our long and troublesome history of meddling in the affairs of countries "South of the Border" (much to our own detriment: "Yankee Go Home!"), is to get on the side of the majority of the populace here, allow the existing regime to fall, and then put our resources into helping the new government improve the economy such that growing coca/participating at one level or another in the exporting of cocaine is not the only viable choice that exists for a large segment of the populace. Using U.S. equipment and personnel to conduct large-scale and widespread counterinsurgency operations that effectively target the poorest and most-disaffected people in the country will not work now that the movement has reached this stage - overthrow of the existing government is all but inevitable at this point, and all we're going to accomplish by continuing to try to prop it up in this manner is complete alienation of much of the populace. And, of course, it's not like everybody else in South and Central America doesn't realize what's going on, either.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    ^ Already done my time in service, thanks.

    Your isolationist attitude simply doesn't jibe with geopolitical realities.
    I love being a veteran when that attitude rears it's head.

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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    Also a veteran. There are many "veterans for peace" around. Smedly Butler was also a veteran, he said some interesting things on our involvement in foreign countries:


    I'm not an isolationist in that americans shouldn't be involved in other countries. However, I abhor our government and military being involved in other countries.

    Whether you were a veteran or not doesn't matter with my suggestion. If YOU think something should be done in columbia, YOU should use YOUR resources and body and take the risks.

    As an expert in international politics or whatever, you should be very aware that many of the people we have supported abroad have not been the good guys.

    What are "geopolitical realities"? I see certain interests who want us to intervene. There is no stone tablet that says we have to OR that such policies are in the interest of the american public. The geopolitical realities as I see them only say "certain factions control our government, so it does what they tell it to". See the link above on Smedler Butler for some examples from the distant past, i'm sure you know all about some recent ones.

    Another code-word I often hear in these kind of discussions is the term "american interests", such as "the military is off protecting american interests". That is a code word for CERTAIN, PRIVATE, American, BUSINESS interests. Not the interests of the people at large. What it is really is most times, the subsidizing and socializing of certain companies, namely the ones with political clout. Columbia is also a special case because of the drug issue and the horrific War on [certain] Drugs.
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    If i may ask, what exactly does "jibe" with "geopolitical realities"?

    Bombing columbians? More huge expensive on war(which means SOMEBODY is making money, just not the ones being taxed to pay for it)? More dead americans because of something that isn't our business? More broken homes due to separation and bodybogs? Let us also not forget our long history of intervention in Columbia and the damaged it has caused.

    I suppose the School of Americas was simply a place to train day care center managers.
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    I love being a veteran when that attitude rears it's head.
    Please, tell me more about my attitude and such.

    As I see it, the number one killer of American servicepeople have been American politicians who send them into silly wars.

    Not many servicepeople die while stationed in Texas or San Diego, etc.

    I stand by my original point about being on the wrong side of every war and losing them all since the Revolution. The American PUBLIC LOST EVER SINGLE WAR in our history, outside of the Revolution.

    Especially the "good" wars of WWI and WWII. As I see it, the British Empire's rulers and JP Morgan were the winners of WWI and the only winner of WWII was Stalin.
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    Default Re: We're On The Wrong Side of This One...

    More dead americans because of something that isn't our business? More broken homes due to separation and bodybogs? Let us also not forget our long history of intervention in Columbia and the damaged it has caused.
    Pretending the development of a narco-state can be thwarted by waving the magic fairy wand of legalization (or even decriminalization) is pure fantasy and nothing more. FARC has no real political motivation, other than to make money, consolidate their power base and spread their influence to other neighbors in the region. They will do this via insurgency and terror tactics, at which they're pretty good. Ignoring this condition doesn't make South or Central America any safer than it is now, and it certainly doesn't help America.

    As an expert in international politics or whatever, you should be very aware that many of the people we have supported abroad have not been the good guys.
    It's not about supporting good guys; it's about supporting the better of two groups, since we have to choose--we don't have the luxury of not caring like, say, Burkina Faso or Sri Lanka. Of course, we will, in the course of geopolitics, support groups and leaders that are antithetical to what we would have in our own nation. But will still have to have a hand in play; geopolitics is a zero-sum game.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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