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Thread: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Since the Hannity thread was hijacked at gunpoint, here's a space for the gun debate

    An interesting read from a Canadian perspective.

    http://www.canada.com/national/nati...3f-0d83536dfe4c

    Gun control myths just won't die

    Lorne Gunter
    National Post

    May 9, 2005



    I have never owned a firearm. Heck, I've never even held a real gun, much less fired one. Still, there are few federal programs that irk me more than Ottawa's gun registry.

    It's not just the waste, although that's atrocious -- nearly $2-billion for a dysfunctional pile of uselessness.

    And it's not just the uselessness. The registry is also one of those truisms for liberals, one of their articles of blind faith. To a liberal, universal registration of guns is something all intelligent people must support or, well, they're not intelligent. They use gun control as a litmus test for who is and isn't sophisticated and subtle of mind. So that even if you can prove the registry will have no practical effect -- it won't prevent armed robberies or murders, or keep enraged spouses from killing one another -- a liberal still has to cling to it for fear of being seen as NOKD (not our kind, dear).

    But what troubles me most is what it says about its supporters' attitude toward the people and government. Backing most gun laws amounts to proclaiming trust in government over trust in one's fellow citizens.

    This is especially true of Canada's gun registry. You really, really have to have faith in government, and be really, really suspicious of the gun owner down the block to continue to think our national registry will ever do any good.

    Frankly, I'll take my law-abiding neighbours over politicians, bureaucrats, experts and advocates any day.

    Believers in our registry like to say that since its inception in 1998 it has helped keep gun licences out of the hands of 13,000 people deemed unstable or too violent to possess guns. What they never boast about is that the registry doesn't even try to track the 131,000 convicted criminals in Canada who have been prohibited by the courts from owning guns.

    Gee, who do you think is the greater risk?

    Still, the fact that 13,000 Canadians -- about one-half of one per cent of applicants -- have been refused a licence in the past seven years might be meaningful if gun-controllers could then point to lowered murder rates, or show that firearms suicides have declined faster than suicides by other methods, or demonstrate a significant reduction in spousal homicides (most of the 13,000 denials have stemmed from complaints by one partner against another).

    But despite these thousands of licence refusals, government ministers and special interest groups who favour the registry can't even point to a reduction in armed robberies.

    The registry is not keeping the unfit from getting guns, just licences. And licences don't kill people, guns do. Keeping licences out of the hands of people who shouldn't have guns is meaningless.

    James Roszko, the slayer of four Mounties in Alberta, had been banned from owning guns for the past five years. But paper gun controls were useless at keeping him from acquiring the weapons he used in his murders.

    The only meaningful gun control is taking firearms away from criminals. And since crooks, drug dealers and murderers don't register their weapons, the registry is useless in this task.

    Consider, too, (from the latest Statistics Canada homicide report), that 68% of firearms murders in Canada in 2003 were committed with handguns, and handguns have been subject to mandatory federal registration since 1934. Indeed, in the past 15 years, the percentage of total murders committed with handguns has doubled, despite their being tightly controlled.

    That should tell you all you need to know about the worth of firearms registries.

    Now the Library of Parliament has released a comparison of violent crime rates in the Northern Plains states versus Canada's Prairie provinces. The simple conclusion: Rates of gun ownership among law-abiding private citizens have no effect on crime.

    Despite having nearly twice as many households with guns as their Canadian counterparts -- and similar economic, cultural and social demographics -- Minnesota, North Dakota, Montana and Idaho have lower crime rates than Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. Researchers determined "both violent and property crime rates were two-thirds higher in the Canadian Prairie provinces than in the four border states."

    Murder was 1.1 times higher; violent assaults and attempted murder, 1.5 times; robbery, 2.1 times; breaking and entering, 2.3; and vehicle theft, 3.2.

    Harassing duck hunters, target shooters and gun collectors to register their firearms will have no effect on crime. But don't tell liberals. They take great comfort in their myths.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    my rule - if it has the power of life/death (cars, guns, etc) and is manufactured (IE not natural, like plants) it should be registered.

    Training should be MANDATORY with registration, and periodic rennewals/retesting

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    my rule - if it has the power of life/death (cars, guns, etc) and is manufactured (IE not natural, like plants) it should be registered.

    Training should be MANDATORY with registration, and periodic rennewals/retesting
    Some people who would want less goverment would shit bricks if this was the way of the world.

    Did you know soda machines kill an average of 10 people a year??
    They shake them and topple it on themselves,SQUISH!!!!

    I would hate to have to have a permit to get a soda pop or go to a class and sit all day while a goverment employee explains the correct procedure for inserting coins in the coin slot.
    Sadley,window blinds kill many kids every year.
    would hate to get a permit just to open the curtains.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    Since the Hannity thread was hijacked at gunpoint, here's a space for the gun debate.
    Guns don't hijack threads, hijackers hijack threads.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Guns don't hijack threads, hijackers hijack threads.

    And on that note, I'd like to apologize for hijacking that thread. I only brought up guns to make a point, not to entirely change the direction of the thread. So, sorry.

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    my rule - if it has the power of life/death (cars, guns, etc) and is manufactured (IE not natural, like plants) it should be registered.

    Training should be MANDATORY with registration, and periodic rennewals/retesting

    Unless an individual has proven through their own actions that they are unfit to exercise a right (such as owning guns), they are entitled to exercise that right uninfringed. Either they should be able to own any firearm they choose - machine guns included - unregistered & unlicensed, or they shouldn't be able to own even an air rifle.

    I don't need to prove I'm fit to exercise a right. The burden is upon you to prove me unfit.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    ^ Hef, I was just making a joke, not flaming ya'.

    Actually, I think gun-control was the second hijacking of the thread (SS being the first). But now, thanks to dd, you gun nuts have your own range.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Did you know soda machines kill an average of 10 people a year??
    They shake them and topple it on themselves,SQUISH!!!!
    Didn't know I needed to specify "when used as intended by their designers, and not by losers of a DARWIN AWARD.

    Kids + blinds/curtain cords = sad fact, but not the "intended use" of the product...or forseeable if parents are paying attention

    Cars+speed+careless drivers=Death

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    ^ Hef, I was just making a joke, not flaming ya'.

    Actually, I think gun-control was the second hijacking of the thread (SS being the first). But now, thanks to dd, you gun nuts have your own range.

    We're cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    im sorry,we are going to have to shoot you with our legal guns now.
    "Going HOT!!!"

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Destiny...if guns shot nuts (the food kind...the other ones hurt too much) it would be a great last meal

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Never let it be said that I passed up a chance to pour gasoline on a raging fire.


    Rice: Gun Rights Important As Free Speech

    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, recalling how her father took up arms to defend fellow blacks from racist whites in the segregated South, said Wednesday the constitutional right of Americans to own guns is as important as their rights to free speech and religion.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Nobody's denying the right to own/range-fire and hunt with guns for lawful purposes...the question of registration is what I consider absurd.

    These items are DESIGNED to fire high speed projectiles and hit/destroy things or people or animals. By definition, they are dangerous. Why is it so horrible that we know where they are, who they are in posession of and have ballistic info so (one owner or ten later...who cares) if they are used unlawfully we have a place to start.

    Used lawfully, you have nothing to fear. Unless the US undergoes a coup, no one's going to violate the constitution and take your guns....if we get to that level, then they can also do house to house searches and find your guns.

    Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness...I'm happiest knowing gun owners are trained,responsible and reviewed....

  13. #13
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Haw.

    But seriously, talk to a cop about guns. Years ago I read a statistic about how many guns used in crimes were STOLEN from legal registered gun owners- EIGHTY PERCENT. However, if you don't want to believe that, think of how many black market guns are out there.
    I've been on both sides of the situation, of needing guns and fearing guns- I've had crackhead neighbors that were not afraid of anything but a gun, and I've also run for my life away from drawn guns and gunshots.
    The situation varies state to state. In the Midwest and South, hunting is part of the culture and people live far apart- less chance of conflict/ more gun safety awareness. In urban areas, people get paranoid from population density, run out and buy a gun without getting proper training. Or storing it properly. So it can get stolen and it's on the street. There you have a problem.

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Never let it be said that I passed up a chance to pour gasoline on a raging fire.




    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, recalling how her father took up arms to defend fellow blacks from racist whites in the segregated South, said Wednesday the constitutional right of Americans to own guns is as important as their rights to free speech and religion.
    I agree with that 100%,its guns that gave us the later AND keeps it.

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by discretedancer
    Nobody's denying the right to own/range-fire and hunt with guns for lawful purposes...the question of registration is what I consider absurd.
    I enjoy getting range time, but in reality it's just practice. I'd like to hunt but I'm not a hunter. I own weapons primarily to protect my family, self, home, property, country, and rights.

    These items are DESIGNED to fire high speed projectiles and hit/destroy things or people or animals. By definition, they are dangerous. Why is it so horrible that we know where they are, who they are in posession of and have ballistic info so (one owner or ten later...who cares) if they are used unlawfully we have a place to start.
    Automobiles 1) are infinitely more dangerous, 2) exist in greater numbers in our society, 3) require little training before allowing novice users to operate, 4) are criminally misused more often than firearms, 5) are responsible for many times the death, injury, and property damage that firearms can be attributed to, 5) are heavily regulated through registration, and 6) require insurance to use publicly. Yet we readily accept them in society despite the damage they cause. AND, there's no Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing a right to own and operate one lawfully. Driving is a privilege.

    Why, with all the effort put into regulating automobiles, do we have such problems? How would a similar approach solve gun-related problems, if already proven ineffective when applied elsewhere?

    Ballistic/forensic databases are a fanciful idea but easily defeated. Over time, the parts of a gun wear - such as the barrel, firing pin, extractor, etc. - and the marks they leave on bullets and empty brass change. The same weapon will produce different markings after firing a few thousand rounds through it. If someone was in a hurry, a file could be used on the grooves and lands of the barrel to change the rifling marks left on a bullet. And that's assuming the bullet comes to rest without being severely distorted from impact.

    Used lawfully, you have nothing to fear.
    My point exactly.

    Unless the US undergoes a coup, no one's going to violate the constitution and take your guns....if we get to that level, then they can also do house to house searches and find your guns.
    It's already happening. In Oshkosh, WI, there was an incident a few months back where cops went house to house illegally entering without a warrant in a certain neighborhood, seizing all guns. This was within hours of a shooting involving a cop. They took the approach that "one of these guns might be the crime gun, so let's take them all". Their intent might not be to end civilian firearms ownership (and install a totalitarian regime), but it opens the door to future illegal searches happening and being accepted. That's where I have a problem.


    Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness...I'm happiest knowing gun owners are trained,responsible and reviewed....
    I'm happier knowing the government doesn't know where to start looking for the guns if they decide to completely stop acting in the interest of the people.

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    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Some people who would want less goverment would shit bricks if this was the way of the world.
    You mean REGISTERED bricks, don't you?
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    I personally don't care how the argument comes out, either here or at a national level. I shot very well back in my military days and haven't held a firearm since. If I was in an area where I felt compelled to buy a firearm, I'd have no problem if I needed to register it and learn and demonstrate safety procedures on it. I don't see the issue with all that, but I've been told I'm blind to a lot of important stuff.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    JZ...I guess I'm with you....what's the big deal

    Hey, I may even be OK wth a compromise: Annual gun owner training and skills testing, maybe verification of proper storage (where kids can't get at em and harder to steal) where feasible and screw the registration.

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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    The only people who will actually follow any gun control laws are the people you don't need to worry about: Law abiding citizens.

    The people you do need to worry about will ignore any law you throw at them.

    Gun 'control' doesn't work. Hit the problem from a realistic angle.

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    I personally don't care how the argument comes out, either here or at a national level. I shot very well back in my military days and haven't held a firearm since. If I was in an area where I felt compelled to buy a firearm, I'd have no problem if I needed to register it and learn and demonstrate safety procedures on it. I don't see the issue with all that, but I've been told I'm blind to a lot of important stuff.
    i think many americans are like that flag on the center of a rope at a tug-o-war contest.

    On one side you have people pulling for No guns period.(freekin assholes who dont deserve to be americans imo)
    and then the other side of the rope is people pulling are the ones who want photon laser cannons to hunt field mice with(again,freekin assholes who dont deserve to be americans imo.)

    Owning a gun is the greatest right we have as an american.
    They protect us from other goverments.
    They protect us from our goverment.
    they protect our families.
    They feed our families.

    They are directly responsible for SW and every right we now use and abuse.

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Guns are just like any other tools and property to me.

    I would like to see the guns removed from the government's hands however.
    Arm the people; disarm the rulers
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    The idea of a gun control thread was shot-down at the last meeting of the vast right-wing conspiracy by a vote of 5 to 1. The 1 vote was then shot by the other 5.

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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Shotgun to defend my home
    Pistol to defend my life
    Rifle to defend my rights

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by montythegeek
    The idea of a gun control thread was shot-down at the last meeting of the vast right-wing conspiracy by a vote of 5 to 1. The 1 vote was then shot by the other 5.


    BTW, how come I'm never invited to the meetings?
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun Control....needs a thread of its own

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    Arm the people; disarm the rulers
    Sounds like the cry of every revolution....before those with the guns declared themselves rulers or dictators'


    Human nature...he with the biggest weapon (and often smallest penis) rules!

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