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Thread: I Need Advice.....

  1. #26
    Featured Member GenWar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    So I saw her last night......I took time off from work and was there for her entire shift. I took a coworker with me and asked him to observe the situation.
    What did the coworker say? What were the observations?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    I later found out that she told some people in the club I'm her "boyfriend"....
    Does that strike you as just the teensy bit wierd? AKA completely insane? I mean, you haven't had anything beyond a close dancer-to-customer relationship up until this point right?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    the only word that can describe him is "ghetto fabulous"
    Now, THAT is comedy!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    since I'm a foot taller than him, and am pretty athletic....lift weights regularly
    Dude, aren't there any hot chicks in the health club. When I wasn't lazy and married, I always found the most amazing chicks in the health club. I was always too much of a loser to really work it, but still, they were there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    told her she has my number, to call me if she wants a real man in her life....
    Did you really say that? Does that normally sound like something you would say?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    So ghetto fabulous followed me out into the parking lot....threw a beer bottle at me, missed
    I'm with yoda on this one. Worry about this guy. I mean, he isn't man enough to stand up to you face to face but he is prepared to throw bottles from a distance with bouncers itching to wash their hands in his blood. He might not be wired right. He does pose a risk of doing something seriously stupid.


    Looking at everything and I have to agree with xdamage and think that you might be viewing this through some sort of filter. I haven't see or heard of a story that started out like this that ended up with a happy ending. Here's to hoping yours is the first...
    "See, believe it or not (and I don't care whether you do), it's never been about the sex. I get sex at home, anytime, and we like it, and it's good for both of us. No, my stripclub experience has been about acceptance, and affirmation, and desirability...There have been some women who have a personality that just clicks with mine, and in the faux-sex atmosphere of the club, it's a mix that is completely seductive." - Jay Zeno

  2. #27
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWar
    I'm with yoda on this one. Worry about this guy. I mean, he isn't man enough to stand up to you face to face but he is prepared to throw bottles from a distance with bouncers itching to wash their hands in his blood. He might not be wired right. He does pose a risk of doing something seriously stupid.
    I am with both of these guys on this one. Watch your back doc. Wackos have a way of attracting wackos into their lives. This guy may not have a job, or a reputation, or a career, but all that means to you is that he has nothing to lose, which makes him that much more dangerous.

    Seriously, whatever you think this guy lacks, he has what it takes to bang this girl. And I sure as hell wouldn't assume he has walked away and is thinking "well that's it for me. she has found herself a real man now. this guy is a full foot taller then me so I guess I should just bow out gracefully"

    More likely he will beat the crap out of you, in front of her. Women can't help but be attracted to a guy who is willing to fight for her. Again, more of that evolutionary stuff I mentioned, appeals to strong deep seated emotions.

  3. #28
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Well, no way she actually likes you, but on the upside, she sounds dirt cheap! $80.00 a week? I doubt I'd remember your name for that. I'd hang on to her - she's the bargain of the century. She's obviously just too dumb to know any better. She will figure it out eventually though (one hopes), so I would enjoy the blue light special while it lasts.
    I have to admit, this blows my mind. $80 is 3 dances+tip at the average club in LV. So for a whole week your getting entertained for $80? no wonder you love this girl!

  4. #29
    God/dess mr_punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    She swore to me he's her X boyfriend......and that they're still just friends, that he's been giving her a ride for a while since her car is broken....

    Of course I didn't believe this so I told her she could do much better, told her she has my number, to call me if she wants a real man in her life.... So ghetto fabulous followed me out into the parking lot....threw a beer bottle at me, missed....the bouncers were right behind him....then she came out, convinced me to come back in......took me to the VIP room and we just made out.....then fell asleep in my arms....woke up, I know she was a little shaken up by everything though.....I gave her a ride home....and she said she'll call.....
    very good, mr. macho man. don't let that tattoo of a teardrop on the corner of his eye scare you. i must say that you've turned into a full blown PL/RIL/White knight/fucko with startling alacrity. basically, you're prepared to get yourself involved in some flakey stripper drama over some dizzy biatch you really don't know at all. nice job, doc.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us
    I'm assuming you understand that being a foot taller than a pissed-off "Ghetto Fabulous" ex(maybe, maybe not) BF won't mean much if he's waiting outside the club for you with a gun, a knife of 3 of his buds the next time you show up.
    shhhhh, i hope he doesn't understand....that's why i love watching PLs crash and burn. they don't know the meaning of word "self-preservation". i just hopes he informs us from the ICU when her parolee ex-BF shanks or inserts multiple caps in his ass in the parking lot of the sc.
    Is it not a problem that the woman have a smaller brain than a man? The government scientist Dr. Yamuka has proved it is size of squirrel. - Borat

    Alan Marciano
    : Oh, man...(to himself) Why did I get mixed up with that bitch?
    Lt. Vincent Hanna: Cause she's got a great ass and you got your head all the way up it! - from the movie "Heat".

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Been watching this thread after it cloned itself over onto the blue/dark side. Us custy's who post on the pink side rend to be optimists abut the dancers of this world, custy's that post on the blue side tend to be pessamists/pragmatists. Nice to see the threads ran true to form.

    From your background I'd say you read body language well enough to tell whether this dancer genuniely likes you, or whether she's doing the usual stripper manoevers. Assumng you are not too emotionally involved to think logically, I will do you the courtesy of assuming that you've read said body lanuguage and that this dancer has genuine affection for you.

    Been reading your last post, which does contain a lot of disturbing information.

    1) There is a grapevine within SC's, which tends to mean that dancers, bouncers, etc., know a lot about each other's personal lives - tell one dancer a secret, and within a week it's round the club.

    I would suggest that the behaviour within the club suggests that the other dancers/bouncers/waitresses, etc., know that your dancer has a *shit* life outside the club, and has met someone nice who can "take her away from all that". The nice behaviour is the rest of the club employees trying to make it happen.

    2) The way the bouncers reacted suggest they know "ghetto fabulous" is (i) bad news and (ii) part of her *shit* life outside of the club. No prizes for guessing that you are her exit strategy from Mr Ghetto Fabulous. Your problem is will Mr GF decide to:

    (a) Fade gracefully into the background.
    (b) Turn up with either a gun or a dozen friends to explain the facts of life to you.

    My guess is option (b).

    3) You have to ask yourself the real motivation for this dancer liking you.

    (I'd say the liking is genuine - you treat her kindly, listen and offer sympathy, offer a potentially better life, etc.)

    The question you have to ask yourself is; "if I take this dancer away from the environment where my kindness is so important to her, will the motivations for her affection diminish, or will she still continue to like/love me?"

    I think this dancer will be very, very happy if you take her away from her present *shit* environment, but you have to consider the possibility that taking her away from said *shit* environment is a powerful motivation for her behaviour, and if the motivation is removed, will the behaviour change?

    4) There are some warning signs here - taking you back into the club and making out is not the behaviour I would have expected. Floods of tears, a lot of talking to get the problems out of her system, a request for a lift home after she'd finished crying - yes.

    And if she/you were going to make out, I'd much prefer a secure environment so I could give her my full attention. Taking her back to her flat would have given that secure environment, (unless of course Mr GF was living there). Is that why she used the VIP room?

    5) I'm not going to be as cynical as the "blue roomers", but you need to consider carefully:

    (a) What are this dancer's real motivations - love for you, or escape from a *shit* environment?

    (b) What are the risks that Mr Ghetto Fabulous plays by his rule book, not yours, resulting in you having the living crap beaten out of you?

    -------------------

    Think very carefully - or to put it another way; engage brain before putting gonads into gear.

    Phil.

  6. #31
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    (a) What are this dancer's real motivations - love for you, or escape from a *shit* environment?

    (b) What are the risks that Mr Ghetto Fabulous plays by his rule book, not yours, resulting in you having the living crap beaten out of you?
    Oh, don't get me wrong. It doesn't surprise me at all that she might see him as a white knight and that a part of her is not just playing him for immediate $$s. It happens, but based on what doc has said so far, I'd wager that doc is in for a learning experience the likes of which he never got in school.

    As for Mr. Ghetto, there may well be more fabulous characters like this to come, oh not just in her past, but to come in the future. If his princess is anything like I"d wager her to be, doc is about to find out that no matter what he does to save this hot girl for her because she deserves better (how sweet ) he is likely to find that she does what she does because deep down she likes it that way. That she craves and will always be attracted to dangerous men, and the company of other fucked up people who feed into her problems.

    But no worries, lover conquers all, and all that [img]images/smilies/rotfl.gif[/img] Why with Doc's stable, healthy ego, and his nothing but good intentions to save this girl (oh and what a wonderful thing it is that she just also happens to be hot, which is not why he feels this way of course, no it's all just because she deserves better) why he should have her turned into a nice stepford wife in no time [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

  7. #32
    Featured Member Moneywise's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    I later found out that she told some people in the club I'm her "boyfriend"....

    So then something quite interesting happened....this guy walks into the club, and was arguing with the bouncer...he claimed to be her boyfriend....this guy was really "something".....the only word that can describe him is "ghetto fabulous"...... so when she saw him she froze up, and became very nervous, uncomfortable.... she went over to him, he put his arm around her, she moved away, they started arguing.... she walked away, came over to me...he came over and tried to intimidate me....which didn't really work, since I'm a foot taller than him, and am pretty athletic....lift weights regularly...so when he saw her hanging on me, he backed down....but wouldn't leave the club, just stared at us from a distance.... She swore to me he's her X boyfriend......and that they're still just friends, that he's been giving her a ride for a while since her car is broken....

    Of course I didn't believe this so I told her she could do much better, told her she has my number, to call me if she wants a real man in her life.... So ghetto fabulous followed me out into the parking lot....threw a beer bottle at me, missed....the bouncers were right behind him....then she came out, convinced me to come back in......took me to the VIP room and we just made out.....then fell asleep in my arms....woke up, I know she was a little shaken up by everything though.....I gave her a ride home....and she said she'll call......

    Shit! This is getting incredibly good. Now I see it from the other side Mr.P..lol I now see what the ruckus was all about when you and the rest of the longstanding vets were feasting on my escapades with Ms. L. Keep it coming Doc! I'm all settled into my La-Z-Boy with a strong serving of .


  8. #33
    Featured Member showgirlschloe's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    So, say you save her from her bad environment and Mr. GF. I'd be worried that as soon as Mr. GF can't find the princess at work, that he would show up at your doorstep. Do you want that element in your life? Do you want her and all her baggage? What if she's setting you up for the woowoo and her and Mr. GF come rob you? This just goes to show that you could have all the book smarts in the world but it comes down to street smarts to survive. I say find a new hobby, like bowling or golfing. Maybe one of the ladies at the country club can give you a lap dance.

  9. #34
    Featured Member evan_essence's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    Been watching this thread after it cloned itself over onto the blue/dark side. Us custy's who post on the pink side rend to be optimists abut the dancers of this world, custy's that post on the blue side tend to be pessamists/pragmatists. Nice to see the threads ran true to form.
    Oh gawd, there's a parallel universe thread over there? I've spent enough time reading this drama already without adding that to my time wasted online. Regardless, Phil, I'm going to respond to your observations because I don't think the Shrink is listening too well anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    From your background I'd say you read body language well enough to tell whether this dancer genuniely likes you, or whether she's doing the usual stripper manoevers.
    Let's remember that psychology is as much an art as a science. So, IMHO, you're giving him too much credit here. She knows he's a therapist. Trust me, for a girl who's atune to male behavior, pushing a male therapist's buttons on her home turf isn't going to be that difficult. This is a bit like a scam artist fooling a scientist into thinking the scammer's psychic powers are real. It's easy because the scientist is trying to measure the activity as if it were real, not looking for the slight of hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    4) There are some warning signs here - taking you back into the club and making out is not the behaviour I would have expected. Floods of tears, a lot of talking to get the problems out of her system, a request for a lift home after she'd finished crying - yes.
    Wow, that's very observant to note that one. I must have been skimming text at that point and missed that red flag. Yeah, that is, at worst, very manipulative and, at best, quite f**ked up. Assuming it's not made up, of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    (a) What are this dancer's real motivations - love for you, or escape from a *shit* environment?
    Obviously, the latter, a damn powerful motivator. But who knows, maybe she can't separate the two in her own mind. The bottom line is, whether it's money or escape, it's simply not the right motivation to create true love.

    The time frame is not long enough to be jumping to the conclusions being drawn by Said Shrink. He doesn't have enough info and he's way too close to this. BTW, wonder where the description is of Shrink's co-worker who observed this at the club? I'm starting to think we're being trolled, but even if that's so, it's entertaining enough that it doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    (b) What are the risks that Mr Ghetto Fabulous plays by his rule book, not yours, resulting in you having the living crap beaten out of you?
    If you take nothing else said here seriously, DrJM, take this issue seriously. Anyone who would violate fashion rules that blatantly has no concern for other rules. Okay, that wasn't a serious enough observation to make my point, but I mean it. Could be boyfriend, could be talent agent. Either way, very dangerous.

    -Ev

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Hey bro, can I have some of that popcorn please?

    Doc, keep it coming man, this is going to be a really good show.

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Be careful what you wish for doc...

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    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Somehow I don't think that a bowl of ...

    ... is going to be enough for this thread.

    Cerveza anyone?

    Former SCJ now in rehab.

  13. #38
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....


    But she told me she wants to get to know me better, have a relationship with me outside the club, and that she likes me, that I'm the kind of guy her mother would want her to be with....When we discussed the "customer" issue, she was somewhat offended.....told me that I hardly spend any money in the club and show up like 4 times a week....that most of the dances I get are free, and that she treats me really differently from the other guys, that she sees something in me she hasn't seen in a guy in a sc before, that I seem to have genuine interest in her and that this is what makes her want to get to know me more.

    Yeah. Because, really and truly, when I meet a guy that I respect and like, and want to get to know better and introduce to my mother the very FIRST thing I want to do is drag him over to a corner of a public place and grind my naked ass on his lap at discount prices. That's a normal thing to do. That is the way most healthy relationships start, in fact. I'm sure that in your capacity as a (ahem) psychologist, you will be recommending that other people do that.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    I'm waiting for someone to start posting as DrSixFiguresInLove. I'll bet he'd have some way cool SC experiences.

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Yeah. Because, really and truly, when I meet a guy that I respect and like, and want to get to know better and introduce to my mother the very FIRST thing I want to do is drag him over to a corner of a public place and grind my naked ass on his lap at discount prices. That's a normal thing to do. That is the way most healthy relationships start, in fact. I'm sure that in your capacity as a (ahem) psychologist, you will be recommending that other people do that.
    LOL. Well Jenny, he does understand women don't you know

    p.s. somehow I get the sense that princess isn't exactly the kind of girl that takes mom's advice most of the time, or maybe mom's full advice was "that's the kind of man I want you to be with.. be sure to give him the discount rate baby so that he sticks around for when you need to borrow money"
    Last edited by xdamage; 05-21-2005 at 11:56 PM.

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    I do take this advice seriously....I mean it, you guys have given me a lot of insight! It always helps to know others have had similar experiences, and I know that things aren’t good....it isn’t a pleasant situation and I’m ready for a bad outcome...

    My colleague sat in the club during her entire shift, and managed to pick up on the conversation....etc... and then was able to observe her with me...His take on things is that its her job to manipulate men, cater to their fantasies....however, that since the environment this is done in is negative, and her experiences with men are negative....in that most of her contact with men is in a context where she’s a “commodity”....it can’t help but affect her world view....not to mention the factors which must have led her into the profession in the first place. He thinks the environment can’t help but make her two faced and manipulative, since those are the skills she relies on to make her money.......Told me to spend a little more time with her and look at the discrepancies between her words and her actions....to count the number of times she does/shows what she says, and if/when I start seeing a pattern of inconsistencies to walk away.... he’s actually threatening to tell the boss to change my shift so that I wouldn’t be able to see her....

    *Doc, How old is this woman? Do you have her number as well?*

    21...and no...

    I think that the “X” is really her BF....it was pretty clear in her body language, she was very comfortable around each other, her body language was very normal, relaxed, she wasn’t on her best behavior around him...you could tell they’re close....but there’s an older man who goes to the club and she acts like that around him too.....while they were close, didn’t really see sexual tension played out....you can usually tell when people are intimate...but it just seems abnormal that she would be so close with an X who treats her like that and he wouldn’t get so jealous if things were over and they’ve moved on and are just friends as she says....

    He does scare me a little, since she has my home, work, and cell number...he could probably get them if he goes through her stuff. I did write his license plate number down though...





    * I later found out that she told some people in the club I'm her "boyfriend"....

    Does that strike you as just the teensy bit weird?*

    At the time I was flattered, I didn’t make anything of it since everyone knew I liked her...I just thought it was cute...


    * I mean, you haven't had anything beyond a close dancer-to-customer relationship up until this point right? *

    I slept with her 2 times after work....


    There are women everywhere...I always found the women at the gym too superficial...OK, they’re not as bad as the strippers...but yeah, thats how I used to feel...They seem a lot better now though...


    *told her she has my number, to call me if she wants a real man in her life....

    Did you really say that? Does that normally sound like something you would say? *

    Yeah... also told her that I wish I could have met her somewhere else, but I couldn’t help wanting to get closer because I feel like I dreamed her into life.... Told her that our lives are pretty different, different levels of stability, goals...but that its OK, it adds spice, that she’s like a balloon....when she’ll be in danger of flying away I’ll hold her down, and when I get too bogged down, she’ll life me up...

    My favorite pick up line is “twinkle twinkle little star, girl I wonder who you are” it works...its so cheesy they can’t help but laugh and open up a little..




    *More likely he will beat the crap out of you, in front of her. Women can't help but be attracted to a guy who is willing to fight for her. Again, more of that evolutionary stuff I mentioned, appeals to strong deep seated emotions.*

    Depends on class, culture, education level. I think every women likes a man who will fight for them, but when it comes to actual physical violence I think most would be turned off.


    *From your background I'd say you read body language well enough to tell whether this dancer genuniely likes you, or whether she's doing the usual stripper manoevers. Assumng you are not too emotionally involved to think logically, I will do you the courtesy of assuming that you've read said body lanuguage and that this dancer has genuine affection for you.*

    I am emotionally involved when with her, this clouds my judgment, but after a while I start to think logically. Her body language, eye movement, tone of voice, seem to be good....thats what makes it so confusing, there is chemistry there...



    *I would suggest that the behaviour within the club suggests that the other dancers/bouncers/waitresses, etc., know that your dancer has a *shit* life outside the club, and has met someone nice who can "take her away from all that". The nice behaviour is the rest of the club employees trying to make it happen. *

    It is a small club, and the employees seem to be close, the girls even work together rather than back stab each other...except for one. I never thought about this though, but couldn’t it also mean they could all be in on it if it’s a scam?

    *2) The way the bouncers reacted suggest they know "ghetto fabulous" is (i) bad news and (ii) part of her *shit* life outside of the club. No prizes for guessing that you are her exit strategy from Mr Ghetto Fabulous. *

    I think he will try something. I’m also afraid he’ll hurt her.

    *The question you have to ask yourself is; "if I take this dancer away from the environment where my kindness is so important to her, will the motivations for her affection diminish, or will she still continue to like/love me?"*

    It depends, love is like a match in the wind, it can go out, or turn into a blazing inferno. If she were to be with me, she could in the long run love me for “saving her” or could get bored with a normal life, her self esteem issues could bring up matters of deserving certain things or not, and she could fall back into her current patterns.

    *I think this dancer will be very, very happy if you take her away from her present *shit* environment, but you have to consider the possibility that taking her away from said *shit* environment is a powerful motivation for her behaviour, and if the motivation is removed, will the behaviour change?*

    Of course it will change, the question is in which direction it will go, and that depends on various factors, it could go either way.

    *4) There are some warning signs here - taking you back into the club and making out is not the behaviour I would have expected. Floods of tears, a lot of talking to get the problems out of her system, a request for a lift home after she'd finished crying - yes.*

    I think her life has made her emotionally guarded, she’s afraid to open up, afraid to be vulnerable because she equates that with being hurt. There was pain in her eyes, she was very distraught.
    Because these woman are basically treated as commodities day after day, they tend to start viewing themselves the same way in a sense. Their self worth rests on their being approved of by others, especially in a superficial way. I think making out was a way of reaffirming her self worth in her mind.

    *And if she/you were going to make out, I'd much prefer a secure environment so I could give her my full attention. Taking her back to her flat would have given that secure environment, (unless of course Mr GF was living there). Is that why she used the VIP room?*

    She has trust issues, the VIP room is a safe area, and most importantly it represents a controlled environment.
    When I drove her home, I didn’t see his car around there, but I wouldn’t be surprised.



    She is manipulating me, and in a sense using me, its not for money apparently, but there are many ways to use someone. Her motivation may be money down the line, or an escape from her life, or I could just be a novelty...a new toy for her to get bored playing with. I’m not sure yet.


    *If his princess is anything like I"d wager her to be, doc is about to find out that no matter what he does to save this hot girl for her because she deserves better (how sweet) he is likely to find that she does what she does because deep down she likes it that way. That she craves and will always be attracted to dangerous men, and the company of other fucked up people who feed into her problems. *

    People fall into patterns because of conditioning, not because they like what they do, people are very apt at doing what does nothing but harm them.

    *Let's remember that psychology is as much an art as a science. So, IMHO, you're giving him too much credit here. *

    I can’t see her in a purely objective way because of my feelings, the relations we’ve had, and overall conditions of our contact. This is why no one ever has relatives, spouses, friends, for clients...When there is a connection there, you’re judgment is clouded.


    This is the thing, she really knows how to work a room, she’s great at her job. She knows how to play the men. But with me, she acts more sincere, gets nervous when she thinks I’m observing her, tells me how she feels, complains about the customers, over time she started telling me how scared she is that she won’t have a better future, tells me her insecurities about her body...her tone of voice is very relaxed, eye contact is normal... But there are little inconsistencies, muscle tension, slight nervousness. At the same time, her affection is normal...


    Everyone has baggage. I’ve met women in more “respectable” places who have been emotionally crippled. I’m not naive....but I’m not going to act paranoid either. Grew up in the South Bronx....


    *That is the way most healthy relationships start, in fact. I'm sure that in your capacity as a (ahem) psychologist, you will be recommending that other people do that.*

    I’m not going to judge her simply by her profession. Its context specific, say you like a girl who is a hair stylist and so she gives you a discount on a haircut...well, a stripper gives you a discount on lap dances. Of course its not a healthy start...

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    I slept with her 2 times after work....
    I would have expected this factoid earlier in your True Confession.

    You want advice? If she's a perfect little freak, do her a few more times, leave the club behind, and change your phone numbers.

    The only thing you can save in a strip club is your dignity.

  18. #43
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    *If his princess is anything like I"d wager her to be, doc is about to find out that no matter what he does to save this hot girl for her because she deserves better (how sweet) he is likely to find that she does what she does because deep down she likes it that way. That she craves and will always be attracted to dangerous men, and the company of other fucked up people who feed into her problems. *

    People fall into patterns because of conditioning, not because they like what they do, people are very apt at doing what does nothing but harm them.
    Like I said in my 1st reply, as long as you are talking about her motives you're never going to understand her or yourself. I won't and refuse to talk about what motivates her.

    So using this simplistic explination of what causes people to fall into patterns of behavior, what is it about your conditioning that has you going back night after night chasing after a fucked up woman that only charges you some of the time versus say chasing after one of the tens of millions in this country that aren't so fucked up?

    Use the mirror doc... remove the beam in they own eye first and all that.

    Until and if you are able to get past the sugar coated, sex charged, feelings that has you doing this all for her, and come to some understanding that you are infact getting something out of this, and that like the rest of us, what motivates you is that you are doing this because it is what you want for you, you're pretty much lost on this one.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    DrJM, exactly what do you want out of this relationship? Where do you see it winding up in the best and worst case scenarios? If she gets serious about your relationship, do you expect her to give up exotic dancing? If so, how will she pay her bills? If not, how will you handle her continuing to work in that environment?

    Your colleague's observations and advice were wise. Are you following any of it, or largely ignoring?

    -Ev

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    If you already fucked her, what's the problem?

    Isn't it time to move on?
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    If you already fucked her, what's the problem?

    Isn't it time to move on?
    He has "feelings" for this girl so it goes beyond wanting to just bang her. In and of itself, that is not necessarily a bad thing, and is a fantastic thing if the situation warrants it. But this situation is screwed up from the beginning, and while doc paints himself as normal, fine, in control, the situation is that he is spending a lot of time chasing after, and trying to fix a girl that by his own admission is pretty screwed up. When pushed to examine his own motives for doing so, he is unable to go there… he falls back on, but this is for her, because she deserves better, because she is vulnerable, and so on. And quite honestly that is a fucked up way for a relationship to begin. Relationships that start out with one person thinking they are fine, and they are going to fix/save someone else rarely work in the long run, and even in the short run, they tend to only survive based on sexual energy and the ego boosting that goes along with the control. Take away the sexual aspects (e.g., if she was a fat ugly chick) and the white knight quickly turns into a frog himself. And the more control he has over her, typically what happens is the harder it will be for him to accept when she stretches her legs and does something (e.g., continues dancing) that he can’t control.

    BTW you posted never do something for a hot chick that you wouldn't do for a fat one (or I would have maybe added, not if you can't admit that your doing it only because she is hot). There is a hell of a lot of wisdom in that simple piece of advice.

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    Thanks man. That statement came to me about ten years ago and it changed my whole way of thinking. Please spread it.
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Doc,

    I think you've got three options.

    (a) Accept that she's genuine in her feeling for you and get her to move into your apartment. At the same time get her to give up dancing and find another line of work.

    That way all the issues from dancing, including Mr Ghetto Fabulous, become history.

    (b) Continue to see her in the SC. In that case I think I agree with Xdamage: "I'd wager that doc is in for a learning experience the likes of which he never got in school." You're playing with fire. You might be a nice guy - other people in this world ain't.

    (c) Accept that you're in over your head and withdraw gracefully.

    Your choice, but I think you've got to do some serious thinking.

    Phil.

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJM
    My colleague sat in the club during her entire shift, and managed to pick up on the conversation....etc... and then was able to observe her with me...His take on things is that its her job to manipulate men, cater to their fantasies....however, that since the environment this is done in is negative, and her experiences with men are negative....in that most of her contact with men is in a context where she’s a “commodity”....it can’t help but affect her world view....not to mention the factors which must have led her into the profession in the first place. He thinks the environment can’t help but make her two faced and manipulative, since those are the skills she relies on to make her money.......Told me to spend a little more time with her and look at the discrepancies between her words and her actions....to count the number of times she does/shows what she says, and if/when I start seeing a pattern of inconsistencies to walk away.... he’s actually threatening to tell the boss to change my shift so that I wouldn’t be able to see her........................I’m not going to judge her simply by her profession. Its context specific, say you like a girl who is a hair stylist and so she gives you a discount on a haircut...well, a stripper gives you a discount on lap dances. Of course its not a healthy start...
    Doc,

    Wasn't originally going to reply to this post, but will.

    Look, when we start discussions on Weltanschauung, I can't help but thinking you are being a bit over anaytical. Not only that, but you are trying to analyse a world where you have little or no experience. Strip clubs are fantasy land - and I think you are having a bit of trouble telling where fantasy ends and reality begins.

    I think also your colleague has got a wise head on his shoulders - he sees your emotions are clouding your judgement. Your posts are not analytical, but loaded with emotion - and probably seasoned with a good dose of wishful thinking.

    I quote: "Love is like a match in the wind, it can go out, or turn into a blazing inferno". Comment on phraseology like this seems superfluous.

    Look, I can only give you my own experience and that is that dancers away from strip venues are very often totally different from when they're working. I recently got in today from spending the afternoon and early evening along a dancers' house. She's studying for a degree, and I've been helping her with the revision for her end of year exams.

    She was scruffilly dressed in jeans and t-shirt, hair in a pony tail and no make-up - didn't look glamorous at all. So we studied for some hours, she cooked a meal for the two of us, I also looked at the latest Cichlid fry to hatch, (she's an expert on tropical fish), and she spent 15 minutes showing me her latest Playstation game. Normal few hours passed between friends. I think the only time dancing entered the conversation was when I was leaving and arranged to give her a lift home from work next Thursday.

    So what's your dancer friend like? What's she look like without make-up and in jeans? What are her interests outside of work? What does she do when she's not working, etc., etc? Can you answer these questions?

    I think 95% of your experience of this dancer is on her home territory - inside the club. Without making any judgements on the wisdom of what you're doing, (and you're worrying a few people who think you're straying out of your depth), I think you'd be well advised to find out what she's like outside of a strip club environment.

    Phil.

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    Default Re: I Need Advice.....

    Just to add what Phil said, emphasizing that many dancers are quite different from what you see in the club, and many are very normal girls who do this work on the side while studying for other jobs, a few are real wack jobs. Unfortunately, a stable/sane personality is not a major job requirement. Take a beautiful girl, that has trouble holding down other types of work, offer her money for shaking it, and well there you go. This girl may well lie as much outside the club as in, or you may find that all of those vulnerabilities you see are because she has a personality disorder (and even women with personality disorders can become very adept at learning what to say/do to attract a man, at least until you really get to know here - then the real fun begins). And to top that off, you may find that not only is she fucked in the head, but because she is beautiful she is swimming in guys who are constantly telling her how wonderful she is leaving her with absolutely no motivation to change, let alone even the slightest clue that there is anything wrong with her. There is a world of difference between a person who 'says' they want help, and the person who actually wants it. Talk is cheap, and a very good way to avoid facing reality and manipulate self and others. Maybe you're avoiding facing your real motives here yourself. Your writing about it, but are you coming to grips with why it is that you've chosen to fall in love with a very beautiful, emotionally fucked up woman???

    In the end it comes back to what I said before, wtf is going on in your head, what is motivating you, to spend your off time chasing after a fucked up beautiful girl when you could be chasing after a nice, but maybe not so beautiful, and certainly not so fucked up girl?
    Last edited by xdamage; 05-23-2005 at 05:38 AM.

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