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Thread: And this is why I hate the president

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    Default And this is why I hate the president

    Any administration that will give the slightest bit of consideration to the nutjobs who think frozen embryos should be put up for adoption is off its collective rocker and on the verge of seriously violating women's rights. When, oh when, will the moderate Republicans stand up to the crazy religious right?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/02/na.../02embryo.html

    While I think it's lovely that these parents are going to raise more little bible-thumping Wal-Mart shoppers (at the expense, perhaps, of adopting an already living child?), I think that conferring the same rights on a blastocyst that a fully formed human being able to survive outside of the womb or petri dish holds is terrible and bizarre social policy.

    What's to follow? Mandatory criminal investigations of any woman who miscarries? These folks are entitled to their beliefs, and to them I say, if you are opposed to IVF, stem cell research, or abortion, then don't partake in any of them.

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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    NOthing that comes outta that guys mouth I have EVER agreed to. I'm ashamed to be a citizen of the state of Ohio...oh whoa is me..







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    God/dess NinaDaisy's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Thanks, Susan, for using the key word here. Blastocyst. It is basically a ball of cells that isn't sentient. Maybe a total of 16 cells at most, typically. The sad thing is that most people don't really know what a blastocyst is, let alone the bulk of people that oppose stem-cell research. They just think you're killing a little baby or a "potential life form". Yeah, I wonder how many of the men that oppose stem-cell research on the latter theory jack off on a regular basis. That's basically the same thing.
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

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  4. #4
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I saw a bunch of these "snowflake" babies on the news when this topic was on the top of the headlines. They looked...kinda malformed...I mean, they didn't look like your average healthy kids. It might not even be medically ethical to make a person with a blastocyst that could be damaged from freezing.

    PS Re: men jacking off- I often pray in thanks to the makers of Kleenex and cheap hand lotion for preventing much spawn from coming into existence. LOL.

  5. #5
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    The blocking of highly promising research that would someday help people who have lost their brains of bodies to disease and injury by calling blastocytes, which have neither, human beings is scientifically ignorant, medically unsound, humanly callous, and religiously founded. It is akin to a President being a Jehovah's Witness and ordering no more transfusions or organ transplants.

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    As an item of logic, I fail to see any connection, whatsoever, of any of the extensions Susan draws from the article. The sole connection of these folks to the administration is summed up in this sentence.

    President Bush appeared with the McClures and 20 other Snowflakes families, kissing the babies, some of whom wore T-shirts that said "former embryo," or "this embryo was not discarded."
    All this from a politician kissing babies. The pro-stem-cell-research folks cannot have it both ways. Either the surplus cells are are surplus and can be put to a good use or not.

    Nothing gives any hint of the draconian extremes SW takes them too. An "equally nonsensical" (emphasis on nonsensical) extension from an opposing view is that since they are nothing at all, fertility clinic operators could require donors to provide extras to help cerebral palsy victims. And JZ's reference to "blocking" is similarly misplaced. No one is blocking crap; they just aren't paying for it. "Promising" is also a misplaced word--a more accurate description is "hyped". Stem-cell research is the new "internet"--hyped beyond all recognition when absolutely nothing has ever been demonstrated as doing any good by building hopes in desperate sick people.

    Also note that half of the article is concerning what-the-hell phrase you use to describe using leftover cells. One side has to treat the cells as a tumor, and the other has to raise them to the status of the Holy Grail.

  7. #7
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by montythegeek
    And JZ's reference to "blocking" is similarly misplaced. No one is blocking crap; they just aren't paying for it. "Promising" is also a misplaced word--a more accurate description is "hyped".
    That irritates me in the art community, when the government doesn't fund some artistic endeavor, and suddenly it's "censorship." No, it's not the same. So to the extent that the Bush Administration isn't trying to block stem-cell research, I stand corrected. (Of course, one would think that the government would encourage, rather than discourage, valid scientific research.)

    "Promising" is quite correct. The great advantage of embryonic stem cells is that, unlike adult stem cells, they have not differentiated. We don't know the trigger to the differentiation. For afflicted people whose ultimate positive recovery would be to produce new cells (spinal/brain damage, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, etc.), stem cell research, by far, is the leading candidate to get positive results. And the potential benefits of cracking the differentiation code go far, far beyond helping sick people.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    I agree with monty on this one. Why all the fuss? There's 400,000 frozen embryos laying around. If a handful of people want to emplant some and give birth, what's the big deal?

    If you believe, as many pro-life people do, that life begins at conception, this is a logical step to take. While I don't agree with that position, at least they have the courage to act upon their convictions.
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Monty, the fact that the government has been a significant source of funding for medical research in the past does make it politically significant when they decide not to fund a particular line of research because of what are essentially political concerns, and lack of federal funds hampers research in a very real way.

    Bush has made it very clear where his sympathies lie, and he's proven to be willing, time and again, to align himself with the religious right--I don't see how that is debatable. He decided it was necessary to place theologians on his stem cell task force.

    I don't expect any man to understand the cold fear that comes over me when I think about having my right to choose threatened. I don't think it's unreasonable or illogical to have such fears considering the fact that our president has clearly sided with the anti-abortion, life-begins-at-conception crowd. They have every right to act on their convictions by adopting until the cows come home, but their insistence that everyone else should do the same is unacceptable.

  10. #10
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    I don't hate President Bush. He's been a disappointment to me, but that doesn't matter much.

    I welcome anyone to adopt anyone or anything that they want, be it kids, fertilized ova, or ripe eggplant.

    People have lived in forced ignorance before, and the human race has survived. The anti-science growlings now are no different in tone or reasoning than the complaints leveled against Copernicus and Galileo. Kansas kids might not learn evolution properly and will therefore have an incorrect understanding of the basics of biological sciences. So it goes.

    It is frustrating, though, to have those anti-knowledge and illogical attitudes stand in the way of biomedical research and advancements that could well provide relief for so many afflicted people.

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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    I don't expect any man to understand the cold fear that comes over me when I think about having my right to choose threatened. I don't think it's unreasonable or illogical to have such fears considering the fact that our president has clearly sided with the anti-abortion, life-begins-at-conception crowd. They have every right to act on their convictions by adopting until the cows come home, but their insistence that everyone else should do the same is unacceptable.
    If W manages to pack that Supreme Court with his pro-life cronies roe vs. wade will be overturned. The best pro-choicers can hope for in that case is for the issue to be turned over to the individual states. Hope no-one retires till at least 2008.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    Monty, the fact that the government has been a significant source of funding for medical research in the past does make it politically significant when they decide not to fund a particular line of research because of what are essentially political concerns, and lack of federal funds hampers research in a very real way.
    Personally, I don't have a great deal of faith in government-funded research since politics enters into most all of the decisisions. An example is AIDS. This disease receives a disproportionate amount of government funding due to political pressure. In most cases, the private sector could do a better job.

    ...They have every right to act on their convictions by adopting until the cows come home, but their insistence that everyone else should do the same is unacceptable.
    Did I miss something in the article? I don't remember anyone insisting that other people "adopt" embryos.
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    I'll echo what Monty said, but also just point out that there is massive bipartisan support for expansion of stem-cell funding that will likely have a veto-proof margin if not this year, than next year (an election year).

    I often pray in thanks to the makers of Kleenex and cheap hand lotion for preventing much spawn from coming into existence.
    Am I the only guy that finds Kleenex (or any tissue product) to be completely useless in post-masturbatory cleaning? The paper sticks to you, it's not absorptive and it's just an all-around poor substitute for a real towel. I learned this when I was 11. One would think word would get out...
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Veteran Member SthnrnGrl77's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    This whole issue with stem cells, etc. makes me flaming mad I try to avoid the topic at all costs. All these people who say they are babies, I wanna know, when is the last time you saw a woman pushing a friggin stem cell in a stroller ???????? Pleaseeeeee


    He'll be gone in 3 yrs and hopefully this insanity will end. (although I would have picked him over kerry - lesser of 2 evils) But fundamentalists scare me.

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    Veteran Member SthnrnGrl77's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    I don't hate President Bush. He's been a disappointment to me, but that doesn't matter much.

    .
    Yes those are my feelings exactly.

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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    I'll echo what Monty said, but also just point out that there is massive bipartisan support for expansion of stem-cell funding that will likely have a veto-proof margin if not this year, than next year (an election year).
    You guys have really hit on the key issue here ... that several states see stem cell research as the basis for 'cultivating' a new white lab coat industry which will potentially create lots of decent paying jobs for high-tech workers to essentially replace former IT jobs which have been outsourced. The problems I have with this issue have nothing at all to do with the issue of stem cell research itself, only with where the research funding is coming from and how it is being applied.

    Basically, states like California and New York and Massachusetts are planning on funnelling in billions of dollars in state tax money to subsidize both public sector and "private sector" stem cell research facilities in their states. This research is not co-ordinated to any significant degree, meaning that research funded by California taxpayers is/will be essentially competing with research funded by New York taxpayers in the hopes of arriving first at some 'discovery' which can then be spun off to create a self-sustaining profitable 'industry'. For the states that come in second in the race for a 'discovery' with practical applications, they might as well just be paying out those billions in the form of huge unemployment/welfare checks in terms of actual end result versus tax money spent.

    The issue of federal funding for stem cell research will now add an entirely new level to this high-tech 'welfare' program and allow states that already have a state tax money financed stem cell research infrastructure established to 'feed at the federal trough'. In other words, federal tax money collected in every state will be transferred to white lab coat employees in California, New York, Massachusetts etc. who will all basically be pursuing similar lines of research. Thus this is not truly about the efficient pursuit of stem cell research in the long term, it is primarily about creating publically funded private sector white collar jobs in 'blue' states in the short term.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-10-2005 at 01:30 AM.

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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    ... This research is not co-ordinated to any significant degree, meaning that research funded by California taxpayers is/will be essentially competing with research funded by New York taxpayers in the hopes of arriving first at some 'discovery' ...
    This is how scientific research works. It's how it's always been done. The scientific community "organizes" itself through the process of peer reviewed journal publications. The most qualified and promising researchers with the most promising proposals are funded by grant programs, in theory. Efforts to "coordinate" scientific research by bureaucrats has been a disaster. Science doesn't progress in predictable patterns. Great scientists do great work. AIDS research, despite the worthiness of the cause, was the beginining of an effort to politicize science funding, with innumerable instances of poorly chosen grants. Unlike the hasty narrowly focussed rush for an AIDS vaccine, which never bore fruit, stem cell research is a wide frontier of open questions, and more money channeled to great scientists means more progress. NY, California, and Mass, will attract the best minds in this field, at least the ones not already there.

    In contrast to the goal for "practical" applications of research you mention, the goal of pure scientific research is never applications, but understanding. Ignoring the benefits of pure scientific research is myopic and ultimately will hinder progress. Likewise, it is not reasonable to expect private companies to invest pure research since the benefits of pure scientific research may not be realized for many years, if ever. This is the purpose of public funding.

    Scientists can figure out how to do their own research. They don't need any "organizing" or "co-ordinating" from paper-clip counting conservative politicians. How is it that so-called conservatives that claim they want less government frequently seem desperate to pry their way into places they should truly get the fuck out of?
    Last edited by stant; 06-10-2005 at 12:22 PM.

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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by montythegeek
    ...Stem-cell research is the new "internet"--hyped beyond all recognition when absolutely nothing has ever been demonstrated as doing any good by building hopes in desperate sick people.
    Gee, that whole "internet" thing really turned out to be a bust, huh?

    You are also quite mistaken in your characterization of demonstrated stem cell therapy effects. I don't have the cites, but the JAMA and NEJOM have published peer reviewed research showing substantial benefits, particularly for Alzheimers patients. You are correct that this research is truly at an infancy and has been overly hyped, but more money for scientific research will keep more scientists from entering the private sector, which is an irreversible process. Academia can't pay their new mortgages, once they get the cushy job at Pfizer.

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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Basically, states like California and New York and Massachusetts are planning on funnelling in billions of dollars in state tax money to subsidize both public sector and "private sector" stem cell research facilities in their states.
    I actually voted against that when it came up on the ballot here in Cali. The bleeding heart liberal in me won out over the scientist in me. In a state where the governor is cutting programs to provide poor kids with access to health care, I'd prefer that my tax dollars not go to something that smacks of corporate welfare, and will probably only benefit a few rich folks who can afford cutting-edge medical procedures.

    I'm all for scientific research, and stem cell stuff is, in fact, very exciting if you understand anything about it, but I'm not sure it should be a taxpayer priority at a time when states are in dire need of funding to provide more crucial services (here in California, they've had to start letting criminals out of jail because they just can't afford to keep them there anymore ). I think the companies and organizations that do this kind of research can get their funding from other sources.

    Of course, if we were all in the black like we were back when Clinton was President, then I might reconsider my position on this...
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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    I actually voted against that when it came up on the ballot here in Cali. The bleeding heart liberal in me won out over the scientist in me. In a state where the governor is cutting programs to provide poor kids with access to health care, I'd prefer that my tax dollars not go to something that smacks of corporate welfare, and will probably only benefit a few rich folks who can afford cutting-edge medical procedures.
    There is a saying in Sri Lanka about the economy.

    "Ten men fall into a hole. As one tries to climb out, the other nine drag him back to the bottom. That is the economy in Sri Lanka."

    I'm all for scientific research, and stem cell stuff is, in fact, very exciting if you understand anything about it, but I'm not sure it should be a taxpayer priority at a time when states are in dire need of funding to provide more crucial services (here in California, they've had to start letting criminals out of jail because they just can't afford to keep them there anymore ). I think the companies and organizations that do this kind of research can get their funding from other sources.
    I think there should be a little payback to the money lenders when a granted source comes up with a marketable product.

    I agree with you in part - these days it seems to much like corporate welfare. This whole round about idea of "taxes will flow in from the new market" is baloney when:

    * they want to continously ease up on corporate tax

    * send jobs (and that income tax) over seas

    * the corporation takes flight to some Cayman Islands P.O. Box.

    Of course, if we were all in the black like we were back when Clinton was President, then I might reconsider my position on this...
    What makes you think we were in the black back then? Still a lot of chinese money in the bank and a huge sucking sound of the trade deficit.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Ah yes, but this is 'corporate welfare' driven by Democrats. The Governator was more or less swept along with the California tide.

    This is understandable to a degree, because any state that has not created a private sector 'stem cell' industry base when federal grant money starts flowing is going to miss out on billions of relocated federal tax dollars. Thus California is 'gambling' that by investing 3 billion of their own state tax money up front to establish a stem cell industry base in California, that they can then siphon in 30 billion dollars in federal subsidies a year or two or three down the road. That's a whole bunch of good paying white collar 'professional' jobs in a new industry which is politically correct to boot.

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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    When, oh when, will the moderate Republicans stand up to the crazy religious right?
    This is the real question...

    I have been wondering about this for quite some time. I have posed this question here in none too restrained a fashion numerous times in the past, but have stayed away from PP entirely recently because of the potential for discord.

    We are supposed to be in the 21st Century here, not fighting off religious nuts who want to control every aspect of our lives. But I fear the 21st century might have a lot more in common with the 11th than I would have thought possible a few years ago.
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  23. #23
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: And this is why I hate the president

    Thank you, thank you, stant, for being a voice of reason, but reasoning with some people here is like talking to flat-earthers, which you can do until you are f*cking blue in the face.

    On a tangent, I just got back from Italy two days ago, where the church organized a boycott of voting for a referendum on fertility treatment/embryo research. So far it looks like the boycott has worked. You can see some of the details on the referendum here:

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