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Thread: ? for Senator Durbin

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default ? for Senator Durbin

    I wonder what Senator Durbin would compare this to?

    http://nytimes.com/2005/06/19/international/middleeast/19torture.html?hp&ex=1119240000&en=284852b89318a91 a&ei=5094&partner=homepage

    Iraqis Found in Torture House Tell of Brutality of Insurgents

    By SABRINA TAVERNISE

    Published: June 19, 2005

    KARABILA, Iraq, Sunday, June 19 - Marines on an operation to eliminate insurgents that began Friday broke through the outside wall of a building in this small rural village to find a torture center equipped with electric wires, a noose, handcuffs, a 574-page jihad manual - and four beaten and shackled Iraqis.



    A marine outside room in a house where Iraqi hostages were held and tortured by insurgents in Karabila.

    The remains of a car lay in front of a house used as bomb factory, next to a house where insurgents tortured hostages in Karabila, in western Iraq.

    The American military has found torture houses after invading towns heavily populated by insurgents - like Falluja, where the anti-insurgent assault last fall uncovered almost 20 such sites. But rarely have they come across victims who have lived to tell the tale.

    The men said they told the marines, from Company K, Third Marines, Second Division, that they had been tortured with shocks and flogged with a strip of rubber for more than two weeks, unseen behind the windows of black glass. One of them, Ahmed Isa Fathil, 19, a former member of the new Iraqi Army, said he had been held and tortured there for 22 days. All the while, he said, his face was almost entirely taped over and his hands were cuffed.

    In an interview with an embedded reporter just hours after he was freed, he said he had never seen the faces of his captors, who occasionally whispered at him, "We will kill you." He said they did not question him, and he did not know what they wanted. Nor did he ever expect to be released.

    "They kill somebody every day," said Mr. Fathil, whose hands were so swollen he could not open a can of Coke offered to him by a marine. "They've killed a lot of people."

    From the house on Saturday, there could be heard sounds of fighting from the large-scale offensive to eliminate strongholds of insurgents, many of whom stream across Iraq's porous border with Syria. [Page 10.]

    As the marines walked through the house - a squat one-story building of sand-colored brick - the broken black window glass crunched under their boots. Light poured in, revealing walls and ceiling shredded by shrapnel from the blast they had set off to break in through a wall. Latex gloves were strewn on the floor. A kerosene lantern lay on its side, shattered.

    The manual recovered - a fat, well-thumbed Arabic paperback - listed itself as the 2005 First Edition of "The Principles of Jihadist Philosophy," by Abdel Rahman al-Ali. Its chapters included "How to Select the Best Hostage," and "The Legitimacy of Cutting the Infidels' Heads."

    Also recovered were several fake passports, a black hood, the painkiller Percoset, handcuffs and an explosives how-to-guide. Three cars loaded with explosives were parked in a garage outside the house. The marines blew them up.

    This is Mr. Fathil's account of his ordeal.

    He was having a lunch of lettuce and cucumbers in the kitchen of his home in the small desert village of Rabot with his mother and brother. An Opel sedan pulled up. Two men in masks carrying machine guns got out, seized him, and, leaving his mother sobbing, put him in the trunk of their car.

    The drove to the house here. They taped his face, put cotton in his ears, and began to beat him.

    The only possible explanation for the seizure he could think of was his time in the new Iraqi Army. Unemployed and illiterate, Mr. Fathil signed up after the American occupation began.

    But nine months ago, when continuing working meant risking the wrath of the Jihadists, he quit. In all, 10 friends from his unit have been killed, he said. So have his uncle and his uncle's son, though neither ever worked as soldiers.

    The men tended to talk in whispers, he said, telling him five times a day, in low voices in his ear, to pray, and offering him sand, instead of water, to wash himself. Just once, he asked if he could see his mother, and one of them said to him, "You won't leave until you are dead."

    Mr. Fathil did not know there were other hostages. He found out only after the captors left and he was able to remove the tape from his eyes.

    The routine in the house was regular. Because of the windows, it was always dark inside. Mr. Fathil said he was fed once a day, and allowed to use a bathroom as necessary in the back of the house.

    When marines burst in, one of the captives was lying under a stairwell, badly beaten. At first, they thought he was dead.

    The others were emaciated and battered. Mr. Fathil had fared the best. The other three were taken by medical helicopter to Balad, a base near Baghdad with a hospital.

    But he still had been hurt badly. Marks from beatings criss-crossed his back, and deep pocks, apparently from electric shock burns, were gouged in his skin.

    The shocks, he said, felt "like my soul is being ripped out of my body." But when he would start to scream, and his body would pull up from the shock, they would begin to beat him, he said.

    Mr. Fathil has been at the Marine base south of Qaim since his release, on Saturday around noon. His mother still does not know he is alive.

    When she was mentioned, he bowed and lowered his head, and began to cry softly, wiping his face with the jumpsuit given him by the marines.

    He asked a reporter for help to move to another town, because it was too dangerous for his family to remain in their house. He begged not to have a photograph taken, even of the scars on his back. The captors took pictures of that, he said.

    His town has always been a good place, he said, but the militants have made it hell.

    "These few are destroying it," he said, his face streaked with tears. "Everybody they take, they kill. It's on a daily basis pretty much."




  2. #2
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    This kind of stuff is going to come out in the next election and paint the democrats as soft on terrorism.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Probably so Deogol.

    The rebuttal will likely be that the republicans support torture.

    The two may just cancle eachother out.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    Probably so Deogol.

    The rebuttal will likely be that the republicans support torture.

    The two may just cancle eachother out.
    Surely you are not serious? What ever really went on at Abu Ghirab or Guantanamo pales in comparison.
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    What ever really went on at Abu Ghirab or Guantanamo pales in comparison.
    That would be a matter of opinion.

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    Veteran Member SthnrnGrl77's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    I doubt the jews were trying to throw feces and jizz on the 'guards'
    why were they detained again, and why were these guys detained???
    comparing apples to oranges -

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    That would be a matter of opinion.
    No, it's not. I get sick of all this, "truth is in the eye of the beholder" shit.

    How many people have died in Abu Ghirab and Guantanamo?

    How many westerners have been captured in Iraq by terrorist and had their heads cut off?

    The proper treatment of suspected terrorist is debatable. What is not debatable is the fact that we treat captured terrorists far better than they treat us.
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Yes, sorry but it IS a matter of opinion.


    I feel you are entitled to your own opinions, including the ones I might find disagreeable.

    I am beginning to seriously wonder if you feel others deserve the same respect


    I think it is pure hypocrisy to say torture is wrong and then have and create a policy geared towards that exact result.

    Some would also argue that the treatment of SUSPECTED terrorist by the US is NOT debatable.

    Parties of the Geneva and those who honor international law in particullar might have something to say about how debatable the treatment of suspected terrorist is or is not.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    Yes, sorry but it IS a matter of opinion.


    I feel you are entitled to your own opinions, including the ones I might find disagreeable.

    I am beginning to seriously wonder if you feel others deserve the same respect


    I think it is pure hypocrisy to say torture is wrong and then have and create a policy geared towards that exact result.

    Some would also argue that the treatment of SUSPECTED terrorist by the US is NOT debatable.

    Parties of the Geneva and those who honor international law in particullar might have something to say about how debatable the treatment of suspected terrorist is or is not.
    Well, I think we should have a trial for these characters. If they are found to be terrorists, then we should cut their heads off.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    If Sen. Durban's aspersions wind up sticking, than I vote that the Gitmo prisoners actually be treated like prisoners of Nazi camps or Soviet Gulags or the Khmer Rouge. Simply line all 500 of the prisoners up and shoot them. At least this action would wind up saving American lives (re the dozen released former Gitmo prisoners apprehended AGAIN fighting against coalition troops in Iraq).

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    Yes, sorry but it IS a matter of opinion.


    I feel you are entitled to your own opinions, including the ones I might find disagreeable.

    I am beginning to seriously wonder if you feel others deserve the same respect


    I think it is pure hypocrisy to say torture is wrong and then have and create a policy geared towards that exact result.

    Some would also argue that the treatment of SUSPECTED terrorist by the US is NOT debatable.

    Parties of the Geneva and those who honor international law in particullar might have something to say about how debatable the treatment of suspected terrorist is or is not.
    Facts are not a matter of opinion. Again, how many people have died in Abu Ghirab and Guantanamo? How many westerners have been captured in Iraq by terrorist and had their heads cut off? As I said, the proper treatment of suspected terrorists, which the Geneva Convention doesn't really address, IS a matter of personal opinion. However the fact that those in custody at Abu Ghirab and Guantanamo are treated far better than westerners abducted in Iraq is not a matter of opinion.
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Confused?

    Why the hissy fit over my simple speculation about what democrats may use as rebuttal to a probable campaign attack ad anyway ?

    Lets review:

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    Probably so Deogol.

    The rebuttal will likely be that the republicans support torture.

    The two may just cancle eachother out.
    then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Surely you are not serious? What ever really went on at Abu Ghirab or Guantanamo pales in comparison.
    followed by:
    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    That would be a matter of opinion.
    to which you replied:
    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    No, it's not. I get sick of all this, "truth is in the eye of the beholder" shit.
    and:

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Facts are not a matter of opinion.
    Maybe it's me, but I am failing to see what your problem is with my opinion that Dems may use the US torture cases as rebuttal to Deogo'ls specualtion that the information discussed in this story may be used in future campaigning.

    Why are you trying to debate that anyway ?

    And how is my speculation on a possible rebuttal to a hypothetical ( though probable) campaign attack on Dems, not an an opinion ?

    I think you are just trying to have an arguement for the sake of it.

    :shrugs:
    Last edited by Weekend Reports; 06-19-2005 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    The problem here is that Sen. Durbin's attempted analogies are not only ridiculous and grossly inaccurate, but that the mainstream media appears to be supporting the gross inaccuracy - thus feeding a huge line of bull$#it to American voters - many of whom have not been adequately educated by our NEA led public school systems to realize just how ridiculous and grossly inaccurate Sen. Durbin's statements really are.

    This in turn poses a real risk to American soldiers in the field and American civilians at home, because debate and disclosure over Gitmo prisoner treatment is releasing classified information regarding prisoner interrogation techniques which can and will be used to greatly reduce the amount of useful future intelligence information we'll be able to obtain from captured 'enemy combatants'.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    WR:

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That does not mean that everyone's opinion is of equal value. Opinions based on ignorance, or formed from a person's idealogy without regard to the truth are essentially worthless. Our society is filled with people who have made up their minds and don't want to be bothered by the truth. While they are certainly entitled to their opinion, it is worthless. If Dick Durbin truly believes that the conditions at Guantanamo are analogous to those suffered by people in Stalin's gulags then Dick Durbin is ignorant. If he knows the difference and ignores that fact to pursue his own political agenda, he is worse than ignorant.

    Considering the situation in Iraq. I stated that the treatment given the suspected terrorists at Abu Ghriab and Guantamo pales in comparison to that experienced by innocent western contractors who were unfortunate enough to be captured by the terrorists and have their heads chopped off. I didn't even mention the reign of terror they have carried out against the Iraqi people themselves. You stated, "That would be a matter of opinion.". Really? How can that be? You really think the serverity of being beheaded compares with being forced to stand in one position for hours or being forced to listen to Christina Aguilara?

    Some regrettable things happened at Abu Ghirab. Those people were punished, unlike the terrorists on the other side who's acts of torture and murder are celebrated. As I said, the proper treatment of suspected terrorists at Guantanamo is something reasonable people can debate. However, based on what we know, the typical prisoner at Guantanamo is treated far better than he would be if he were a westerner captured by the terrorists. That is a fact and is not debatable.
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Parties of the Geneva and those who honor international law in particullar might have something to say about how debatable the treatment of suspected terrorist is or is not.
    Not those that actually know what the law says--read the Geneva Convention; you'll see that terrorists (fighters not in the uniform of a nation) are illegal combatants, who, like the German saboteurs that landed on Florida's shores in WWII, are not offered the protection of the GC. Execution is legitimate.

    So much for the value of your opinion...
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    despite heroic attempts by mainstream media to chill the anti-Durbin backlash reaction, bipartisan pressure finally apparently got to the senator (either that or re-election fears)

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Now if we can just get Rove to apologize for his recent and incorrect comments .

    I am not holding my breath though as I can not remember the last time a conservative public figure admiting a mistake of any kind whatsoever.

    Here is an article on that subject :
    Last edited by Weekend Reports; 06-25-2005 at 12:07 PM.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    I I vote that the Gitmo prisoners actually be treated like prisoners of Nazi camps or Soviet Gulags or the Khmer Rouge. Simply line all 500 of the prisoners up and shoot them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Not those that actually know what the law says--read the Geneva Convention; you'll see that terrorists (fighters not in the uniform of a nation) are illegal combatants, who, like the German saboteurs that landed on Florida's shores in WWII, are not offered the protection of the GC. Execution is legitimate. Execution is legitimate.
    And those attitudes are different from a terrorist position how ? The answer is not at all. They are one and the same.

    To those of you who carry and support such deep seated bloodlust as the above quoted posts, I offer up these words. The boldfaced parts apply all to well, in my opinion.

    " America cannot continue down this road. Torture demonstrates weakness, not strength. It does not show understanding, power or magnanimity. It is not leadership. It is a reaction of government officials overwhelmed by fear who succumb to conduct unworthy of them and of the citizens of the United States."

    by former physician to the president to George H.W. Bush and a board member of Physicians for Human Rights


    And I would like to remind people of the following :
    (snip)
    after Sept. 11, 2001, the Justice Department, operating behind a wall of secrecy, thrust scores of Muslim men living in this country into a world of indefinite detention without charge because of baseless accusations of terrorist links. The men -- 70 in all -- were held as "material witnesses." Sixty-four were of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent. Seventeen were U.S. citizens. All but one were Muslims. Many weren't told why they were arrested and were not given immediate access to lawyers or allowed to see the evidence against them.The report said that court proceedings were conducted against the men behind closed doors, and that all the court documents were sealed. "Almost half of the [men] were never brought before a grand jury or court to testify. Only a handful were ever charged with crimes related to terrorism

    (snip)
    In a time of national peril, protecting America from terrorists should be paramount, you might argue. Yes, but pulling Muslims of Middle Eastern descent off the streets for indefinite incarceration because they have worked, dined or prayed with someone who looks like them or has a similar name and is under suspicion as a possible terrorist -- this is inconsistent with our notions of justice and the full and free exercise of rights. Think about it as we commemorate our anniversary. And please don't pooh-pooh the fear that race or national origin could be used as the basis for the U.S. government's mistreatment of people in this country during a time of war. To do that is to ignore history.
    Last edited by Weekend Reports; 07-01-2005 at 11:11 PM.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    And those attitudes are different from a terrorist position how ? The answer is not at all. They are one and the same.
    Even if you took my satirical point literally (which was not my intention), there is still a world of difference between executing prisoners who were captured while actively attempting to inflict harm/death on US citizens and soldiers, and the on-camera beheading of civilian hostages whose only active opposition to terrorists was wearing a 'western' face and being present in a middle eastern country.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    One of the Bush Administration's biggest mistakes was in agreeing that the Geneva Convention would apply to suspected terrorists. As CO correctly pointed out, the Geneva Convention does not apply to combatants not in uniform (spies, saboteurs etc.) At the outset of hositilities, the U.S. should have announced that any Iraqi soldier that surrendered would be treated properly in accordance with international law, but that anyone who waged war desguised as a civillian forfeited that protection.
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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    If you care about treatment of our own troops then you apply the Geneva to all combatants.

    That is the purpose of the entire thing to begin with.

    Those with bloodlust will never understand .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Even if you took my satirical point literally (which was not my intention), there is still a world of difference between executing prisoners who were captured while actively attempting to inflict harm/death on US citizens and soldiers, and the on-camera beheading of civilian hostages whose only active opposition to terrorists was wearing a 'western' face and being present in a middle eastern country.
    Satire huh ? I don't buy it. I've too many post by you to know it wasn't a satirical comment.

    What of the innocent people being detained whose only mistake is that they know someone who knows someone who is related to someone who knows someone with information on terrorism.

    And what of the innocent taxi drivers who had no clue who the fare was ?

    And what of the children who worked as look outs rather than let their family stave to death or be murdered ?

    You lump all these types of detainess with those who actually inflict harm. You do not differentiate .

    That along with most everything else you discuss on this topic is EXACTLY the same mindset as a terrorist.

    Two of a kind. Two of a kind.

    But wait, why have I even been lowering my own self by responding to such a person as you ?

    I won't be making that mistake again.
    Last edited by Weekend Reports; 07-02-2005 at 02:06 PM.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    My reaction when people say what they really think and then pretend they were 'just kidding' when they are called on it...


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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    My reaction when people say what they really think and then pretend they were 'just kidding' when they are called on it...
    Are you referring to Sen. Durbin's quasi-apology ? You're certainly not going to get one from me based on the entire content of my post not just your out of context snippet ! Ultimately, Sen. Durbin's aspersions did NOT wind up sticking and he was forced to admit his words should not have been taken literally. That's OK for him but not OK for me, no doubt.

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    Default Re: ? for Senator Durbin

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Are you referring to
    feigned ignorance is another low-wattage rhetorical trick people use on internet message boards --

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