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Thread: America's solution to the oil price problems

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default America's solution to the oil price problems

    I'm gonna sue you!!!



    I am sure OPEC is quakin in their smocks....

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Well, to a certain political group, price fixing litigation is certainly a much more viable choice than say increasing oil supply by ...
    - drilling for oil in ANWR
    - drilling for oil off the US Pacific coast
    - adopting reasonable emissions standards to allow fuel switching to coal
    - allowing construction of new nuke plants vs new oil / nat gas fueled power plants

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    OPEC's 11 members account for almost 40 percent of global crude oil production and two-thirds of proven reserves.

    I'm certainly no economist, but I question whether 40% of production is enough to function as a true cartel. If you look at the numbers, even with the recent increase in price, the cost of oil has barely out-paced inflation. If the goal of OPEC is to monopolize the price of oil, they are doing a sorry-ass job of it.

    Another requirement of a cartel is that it monopolize the resources. OPEC controls 2/3 of the world's proven oil reserves. That's not to say that there is not more oil out there yet to be discovered or oil in places that new technology could make availible. Besides, oil is only one component of the world's energy supply. OPEC does not monopolize the world's energy supply. Every increase in the price of oil makes other sources more attractive (gee, I'm sounding like discretedancer ). I'm not saying OPEC isn't influential, but I'm pretty sure most of the increase in the cost of oil can be attributed to the increasing comsumption in the Third World.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    OPEC is not the largest foreign supplier of oil to the US; Canada is, and they're not even in OPEC.

    OPEC of the 21st century is not the OPEC of the late 20th century. They don't exert anywhere near the same level of market influence--especially since the Russians (also non-OPEC) are pumping as fast as they can.

    That said, our refusal to exploit domestic sources of oil and gas only contribute to the problem. The beautiful people need to make some sacrifices too, and that includes seeing derricks on the shores of both coasts, not just the Gulf Coast, where all those "dirty red states" are.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    yup, bottom line is that given current Chinese and Indian oil consumption, and given current production capacities of non-OPEC producers, the only 'extra' capacity lies with OPEC nations. If they throttle back production a million barrels a day, it ultimately ripples through the entire supply and demand equation.

    Of course, pricing and production capacity of REFINED oil products i.e. gasoline, heating oil, diesel fuel, brings an entirely new set of capacity limitations into the equation. As Casual Observer put it, the 'Beautiful People' have passed laws mandating special additive blends for gasoline ... which effectively bans imported refined gasolines and makes supply entirely dependent on domestic refinery capacity. At the same time the 'Beautiful People' have erected environmental roadblocks such that no new US refineries have been built in something like the last 25 years, with a number of existing ones being closed down. This issue is just as much of a factor in gasoline pricing as crude oil pricing.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Well, I live in Texas, so no big deal. I bought gas yesterday at 2.07 - which is a lot less than the 2.76 in California last month.

    It is going to get really interesting if China buys Unocal... all that oil is going straight into China I bet.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    It is going to get really interesting if China buys Unocal... all that oil is going straight into China I bet.
    At least on the surface, all of the oil and gas company offers being made by the Chinese National Oil Company involve companies with Asian oil and gas holdings ... which when coupled with China's actions regarding former Soviet oil and gas assets China has already acquired would tend to indicate that every bit of that oil and gas would be destined for Chinese refineries and customers. The net effect of this would be to effectively reduce the amount of oil and gas reserves plus oil and gas production capacity which will be available on the future 'free' market, undoubtedly driving 'free' market prices even higher and handing OPEC countries even more leverage than they already have.

    On the gasoline pricing issue, most residents of California and the Northeast states which require specialty fuel additives do not travel extensively and are therefore typically not aware that the price of their gasoline is 50 to 75 cents higher than it really needs to be ! Of course state gasoline road tax rates are another variable in that equation too. But it's much easier for politicians in these states to downplay the specialty additive and high gasoline tax aspects and blame everything on OPEC and Halliburton.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-24-2005 at 02:44 AM.

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    On the gasoline pricing issue, most residents of California and the Northeast states which require specialty fuel additives do not travel extensively and are therefore typically not aware that the price of their gasoline is 50 to 75 cents higher than it really needs to be ! Of course state gasoline road tax rates are another variable in that equation too. But it's much easier for politicians in these states to downplay the specialty additive and high gasoline tax aspects and blame everything on OPEC and Halliburton.
    I have to admit, I probably won't be going to California to much - I was just shocked at the gas prices (and I use to live there!) Other tourists I have spoken with have said California is probably going off their list of destinations too. Too expensive in so many ways.

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    We could always start another war on some abstract pretext and take over South American oil (Mexican, Venezuelan) production. At least we Americans know how to pump oil. Even I could dream up some quasi-plausible 'reasons' for doing so.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    We could always start another war on some abstract pretext and take over South American oil (Mexican, Venezuelan) production. At least we Americans know how to pump oil. Even I could dream up some quasi-plausible 'reasons' for doing so.
    Maybe we should invade Mexico regarding the "drug war" we have been hearing so much about for so many years.

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Just a suggestion ... read up on the changes in Japan in the 1930's when their access to oil and other critical materials/resources was curtailed by the US and other govt's. This really isn't anything to joke about. Effectively, this is the same intended result of China attempting to buy up the gas and oil resources of US oil companies.

    If for example 30-40% of America's total oil and gas supply were to suddenly disappear (or be diverted to China/India), the economic and political fallout in the USA would be nearly unimaginable. We're way past the point of being able to drive a horse and buggy for a 50 mile daily commute to work, way past the point of burning wood to heat our homes or apartments, and way past the point of living with electricity shut off 6-12 hours every day. It's one thing to have all of the oil and gas that we want/need available but at a very high price, but another thing altogether if there is simply not having enough oil and gas available at ANY price !

    I'll try to underline this point in another way. How do you suppose that the majority of suburban people are going to respond when they are told ... "there will again be enough gasoline for you to commute to your city job five years from now, after we erect oil wells in ANWR and off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, but in the meantime you'll either have to take the bus 50 miles to the city or find a (much lower paying) job closer to where you live." ? How do you suppose that the majority of western and southern state residents are going to respond when they are told ... "there will again be enough electricity for you to run your air conditioners 5 years from now, after we build dozens of new nuclear power plants, but in the meantime you'll either have to sweat in 100+ degree heat or move to a northern state (but we can't guarantee there will be enough heating oil in the wintertime either)." ?

    Idealistic principles seem to have a habit of going overboard very quickly when people find themselves staring such very real and personal negative lifestyle changes squarely in the face. Your joking about the US coming up with 'plausible reasons' to secure Mexican and South American oil fields may indeed turn out to be less of a joke than you think. However, IMHO, the REAL area where the 'securing' of oil fields is essential is the middle east ... and for that reason I don't see US troops packing up and leaving the area any time soon.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-25-2005 at 05:31 AM.

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    "Just a suggestion ... read up on the changes in Japan in the 1930's when their access to oil and other critical materials/resources was curtailed by the US and other govt's."

    Well, it led to Peral Harbor so I've heard from several sources. No, it is no joke. That is just my attempt to throw a little more scope on the basic dilemma.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Well, it led to Peral Harbor so I've heard from several sources. No, it is no joke. That is just my attempt to throw a little more scope on the basic dilemma.

    That was exactly my point - if/when American oil supplies are curtailed to the point where gasoline is rationed, our whole suburban commuter society will quickly fall apart. People who cannot commute to their present jobs, who cannot find decent jobs closer to where they live, and who have no paycheck coming in to keep making mortgage payments, are going to scream bloody murder. In irrational circumstances like these, a pretext for sending US troops in to 'secure' Mexican or Argentinian oil fields isn't all that far-fetched, and the potential voices rising to oppose such an action would be quickly shouted down. I find it simply amazing how fast certain people's opinions can change when maintaining their idealistic position will also result in personal bankruptcy and hungry kids !

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    "Just a suggestion ... read up on the changes in Japan in the 1930's when their access to oil and other critical materials/resources was curtailed by the US and other govt's."
    Well, it led to Pearl Harbor so I've heard from several sources. No, it is no joke. That is just my attempt to throw a little more scope on the basic dilemma.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  15. #15
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    But it's illogical to advocate opening up drilling in protected lands due to lack of available resources and pooh-pooh efforts at energy conservation.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Well, to a certain political group, price fixing litigation is certainly a much more viable choice than say increasing oil supply by ...
    - drilling for oil in ANWR
    - drilling for oil off the US Pacific coast
    - adopting reasonable emissions standards to allow fuel switching to coal
    - allowing construction of new nuke plants vs new oil / nat gas fueled power plants
    Bullshit. Of course you failed to mention the LONG TERM benefits (not 90 days 10 years from now like ANWR) of energy conservation, alternative fuels, increased fuel economy, etc.

    and you ignore the health and community issues caused by petroleum and coal combustion, not to mention the issues of strip- mining butiminous coal (instead of more people-intensive cave mining for more efficient anthracite) or turning culm (coal waste and waste tires, etc.) into energy

    skipping entirely BioFuels and ThermoDePolymericzation, and the HUGEsubsidies for extraction industries and gas-guzzling vehicles.

    but of course, it's all the fault of those pesky scientists indicating pollution is bad for people. Silly me

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Fine, when can construction start on a nuclear plant in your back yard ?

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    That was exactly my point - if/when American oil supplies are curtailed to the point where gasoline is rationed, our whole suburban commuter society will quickly fall apart.
    Because of course there are NO alternatives to oil...its simply incnceivable and we shouldn't bother looking/trying.

    Funny, you painted a few months ago a scenario where alternative energy options were price PROHIBITIVE, now costs of our current energy solution are DEADLY...

    People who cannot commute to their present jobs, who cannot find decent jobs closer to where they live, and who have no paycheck coming in to keep making mortgage payments, are going to scream bloody murder.
    since they've never been educated about alternatives.

    In irrational circumstances like these, a pretext for sending US troops in to 'secure' Mexican or Argentinian oil fields isn't all that far-fetched, and the potential voices rising to oppose such an action would be quickly shouted down. I find it simply amazing how fast certain people's opinions can change when maintaining their idealistic position will also result in personal bankruptcy and hungry kids !
    may not be far fetched...but it's avoidable and pathetic

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    speaking of 'deadly' energy solutions ...

  20. #20
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    I'm not understanding, Mel. Doesn't conservation and alternative methods go hand-in-hand with depleting resources? Logically speaking?

    Pretend it's food. You're running out so you conserve and look for other means to get it. Right?

    Pretend it's money. You cut back on spending and look for other jobs. Right?

    Why doesn't that work for energy sources and consumption?

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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Here's MY solution: Everybody knock heads on how to drill in Alaska without totally fucking up the ecology up there. There has to be a way to do it that lies somewhere between "Fuck the Caribou!" and "We'll fuck over the Caribou if we drill so we can't... ever!"

    There has to be something in there that can benefit us without wrecking things for other life.


    To the Oil Industry: Spend some cash, make sure it won't screw over the spotted owl (or whatever).

    To the Environmentalists: Don't be so fucking fanatical that you'll just oppose something for the sake of opposing it because it furthers your dipshit agenda. Look at it realistically. Humans are good at one thing, that's getting over humps. We can figure out how to get what we need without hurting anything else too badly (Hell, we figured out how to light a campfire, might not seem like much to you but tell that to the people that were stuck figuring it out! Take your matches and lighters away, could you do it?). So cut out chaining yourselves to trees for god's sake.




    We have Oil right fucking here. We needn't destroy anything, hell we got to the MOON we can get to some friggin Oil without killing off chipmunks. Knock heads people! Figure out a way. That's what we're good at. That's our evolutionary edge. It's why we're here and the Sabertooth Tiger isn't.

  22. #22
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    I agree. It can be done, when the need is shown to tap into the preserve. Wildlife migrations have increased across the Alaskan Pipeline route.

    This is tough for me to say, but I do not trust the present Administration to be able to approve a method that truly minimizes impacts on, and protects the habitat of, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Where once I was willing to give this Administration the benefit of the doubt that it would try to be reasonable, I now believe that it will do what it can to make the processes corporate-forgiving rather than environmental-safe. Please don't bother lecturing me with "duh!" statements. I didn't care to jump to that conclusion.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    I now believe that it will do what it can to make the processes corporate-forgiving rather than environmental-safe.
    I hope that your definition of environmental-safe is applied equally to Windmill Farms killing thousands of birds, including over 100 eagles per year (see link in previous post). My only points are that
    #1 a Politically Correct stamp of approval/disapproval does not necessarily correlate with an objective measure of the actual environmental safety of any particular proposal (i.e. Windmills or Nuclear Power Plants), and

    #2 that refusal/resulting financial non-feasibility to pursue a particular energy technology in the USA because of potential 'last decimal point' environmental consequences does not mean that the same energy technology won't be pursued outside US jurisdiction without regard for those decimal points, resulting in ten or 100 times the environmental consequences in global terms (example 50 new Chinese coal burning power plants currently under construction).

  24. #24
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    I gave an example of environmental-safe with increased wildlife migration along the Alaskan Pipeline.

    I'm not sure how the obfuscation (to me, anyway) of coal plants in China relate to conservation and alterative sources. I thought my question was simple, so I'll just state the point. Conservation and alternative sources are prudent means to follow when supplies are running low.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: America's solution to the oil price problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    I Conservation and alternative sources are prudent means to follow when supplies are running low.
    YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    potential 'last decimal point' environmental consequences does not mean that the same energy technology won't be pursued outside US jurisdiction without regard for those decimal points, resulting in ten or 100 times the environmental consequences in global terms
    1. you've never defined the acceptable "decimal point" of enviro. controls (since in any equation the last decimal point used IS THE LAST DECIMAL POINT, even if more can be seen with less rounding

    2. because other countries dont follow our lead (as we dont follow Europe's example in these areas) that makes our decision to live cleaner a problem how?

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