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Thread: Live8 kills americans

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    But I thought that countried named as communists were limited to Cuba and about 4 countries in east Asia.
    Well, there's a couple that claim it, i believe there's a couple in central america that claim it as well (though i may be behind the times on this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    The only countries in Africa that I know of that EVER had relations with communism or "communism" (depending on your viewpoint) were like 3 - and I don't think that the "problems" there were either started or exacerbated by communists. Or "communists"
    I agree, i don't think the communism part of it is the problem. But rather the guy in charge keeping all the FOOD and the various rebel outfits looking to supplant the guy in charge (and keep all the food, themselves). In some cases, if you toss blood diamonds into the mix you have a seriously bad situation. And, you could be right. I might be thinking of things the way they were ten years ago (a lifetime in some of the political systems over there).

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    I think that Ethiopia and Somalia were governed by communists for about 5 minutes, and I think Angola - Angola in particular I think the U.S. had a lot of interference in, somewhat indirectly. (although I'm not sure why I think that. I probably read it somewhere years ago). And the U.S. was up to its hips in illegal assasinations and coups in central and south american in the 1970's, so I don't think communism got very good footholds there (poor, poor Pinochet, with all the nasty foreign leaders wanting to try him NOW, 1000 years AFTER the fact, after they spent the entire last millenia validating his dictatorship. Baa. Baa at international hyprocrisy I say. This is why I don't do politics. It just makes me baa. Although I suppose it is still better to try him now than not at all).
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Sadly, most of Africa was much better off when they were run by colonial powers...like it or not.
    Better relative to now...better relative to before they were colonized?
    Last edited by scarlett_vancouver; 07-02-2005 at 01:59 PM. Reason: colonized...colonialized...?

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    I studied this in one of my recent college classes, and it is true that their 'governments' are very corrupt. They are not at all like our more developed governments, first of all. It is a misconception that in "Third world" countries, EVERYONE is poor. That is almost always not true. While a vast majority of the people are living in poverty, there are a small portion of tribes or families that are wealthy, even by our (Canadian, American, etc) standards. Unfortunately, much of our 'aid' does not get to the poverty-stricken areas. I will not go on a rant here, but their situation is very sad in many parts of Africa, but our money is not nearly the solution to their problems. Sure it can help some people for a little while, but soon enough, almost all of the same people will end up the same as they were before this.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    But did you say that most countries in Africa are being ruled by communists? Are you sure, or were you joking, or what? My understanding is that the problems in Africa are largely because they are being ruled by (what are essentially) military junta, which are largely funded externally through military aid, etc. But as I said - politics and current events are not really my thing. So which countries in Africa are communist?
    Not communist as much as Marxist-Leninist regimes posing as merely authoritarian democracies. Look at the land redistribution going on in Zimbabwe and the horrific results it's creating. Starvation is rampant in a country where, when whites were running the farms, was one of the most well-fed nations on the continent. That's just one example.

    Better relative to now...better relative to before they were colonized?
    Both.

    For all the slagging the West gets about Africa, there's been a long-ignored history of tribal and racial warfare that tears at the seams of African unity. This existed before colonial ambitions put their mark on the continent, and it still shows today. What happened and is happening in the Congo, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Kenya, the Sudan and a dozen other places in Africa have everything to do with tribal and racial warfare among native populations and nothing to do with Western attitudes toward Africa.

    But it's much easier to just blame the white guys than to point the finger at systemic, endemic problems on the continent.
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Not communist as much as Marxist-Leninist regimes posing as merely authoritarian democracies. Look at the land redistribution going on in Zimbabwe and the horrific results it's creating. Starvation is rampant in a country where, when whites were running the farms, was one of the most well-fed nations on the continent. That's just one example.
    I notice a bit of a pattern in your posts - I appreciate that you don't necessarily want to knee jerk, but your arguments seem to be largely "the stupid, ignorant, African peons need a white man looking after them or else they will spend all their metaphorical food money on metaphorical liquor." You must see how that is not only unpalatable, but a dangerous argument that veers dangerously close to essentially calling an entire continent of people retarded. And - you are completely ignoring many instances in which it would be very easy and very accurate to point fingers at white guys (or gals - and yes Margaret Thatcher, I am looking at you). (Apartheid in South Africa and the dictatorship in Zaire are some very obvious examples). Like I said - I appreciate that you may resent a knee jerk blame of westernism for ALL African problems, but you seem to take a fairly extreme Western, paternalistic attitude which doesn't seem any more legitimate to me. But - as I said (and you have quoted) politics is not my thing.

    And tell me - and I am actually asking here, not like rhetorically - wasn't land redistribution in some form necessary, since pretty much everything was white-owned under Rhodesia? Like, they should have just left it that way? And wasn't Zimbabwe doing okay until it was more or less forced to deregulate pretty much everything because of debt to the World bank? (so hey, maybe debt forgiveness would have been helpful after all?)

    Again - this is not me saying that Mugabe is a really nice guy who is just misunderstood. But again - isn't a lot of the corruption in Zimbabwe exacerbated by Western interference? And indeed, as someone else pointed out, the differences between "liberal" and "conservative" governments in the western world mean very little in the rest of it. To the Africans, Clinton and Bush are pretty much the same. Now I do realize I sound snotty but I seriously mean it when I say I don't follow politics (although really, now this is practically history) because I think international politics (even national, when you think about it) simply reinforces our own feelings of impotence and I don't really need more impotence in my life. I read books, not newspapers.
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    I notice a bit of a pattern in your posts - I appreciate that you don't necessarily want to knee jerk, but your arguments seem to be largely "the stupid, ignorant, African peons need a white man looking after them or else they will spend all their metaphorical food money on metaphorical liquor." You must see how that is not only unpalatable, but a dangerous argument that veers dangerously close to essentially calling an entire continent of people retarded.
    And yet you can't ignore patterns in African racial and tribal strife that have not a damn thing to do with white colonization almost 200 years ago. Is it unpalatable because it's largely true, or unpalatable because speaking such truth makes white Westerns feel guilty about their own comparative cultural success? It's not about white men looking after black and Arab men in Africa; it's about their own seeming inability to look after themselves and determine a semblance of unified self-interest that rises above the tribe and to the level of the nation-state. Irrespective of the amount of money--or guilt--from the West, nothing substantively will change in Africa without a serious attempt at unifying at least at the level of the state, if not the region or continent. And frankly, I have little hope for change in my lifetime, not because of a lack of desire, but because of the twin spectre of HIV/AIDS and tribal/racial warfare that is ravaging the entire continent.

    And tell me - and I am actually asking here, not like rhetorically - wasn't land redistribution in some form necessary, since pretty much everything was white-owned under Rhodesia? Like, they should have just left it that way?
    Yes, they should have left all the farms in white hands in Zimbabwe; at least then they would have had more than adequate food production and maintained at least a cursory level of domestic economic output. But since this brilliant stroke of self-destruction that would make Stalin proud, Zimbabwe is facing famine, and in a move sure to be ignored by their Leftist patrons in the West, they're killing everything in their massive wildlife refuges because there's nothing to eat.

    But again - isn't a lot of the corruption in Zimbabwe exacerbated by Western interference?
    Obviously, there were serious negative consequences to poor choices made by colonial powers, the most significant of which were boundaries created in artifical and frequently arbitrary fashion, ignoring social, cultural and tribal considerations.

    Yet the tribal and racial strife that typifies much of African conflict currently is not a new phenonmena that we can attribute to Western colonization 200 years ago, nor its relatively sudden absence. If anything, African nations that have continued to engage the West and it principles of government and economics have fared better than the rest (Kenya, for all its problems, comes to mind).

    And indeed, as someone else pointed out, the differences between "liberal" and "conservative" governments in the western world mean very little in the rest of it. To the Africans, Clinton and Bush are pretty much the same.
    The reason there's no apparent difference is that, to Africans, the concept of Western recognition, support and respect, seem like such distant and unreal goals. How do you explain to Africans in Nigeria--arguably the most powerful nation on the continent, despite endemic corruption--that their leadership on the continent has effects and potential that are unrealized when pursing campaigns of destabilization rather than conflict resolution and peacekeeping? How do you explain to the government of South Africa that denying that HIV causes AIDS cripples their future ability to establish political, economic and national security? How do you explain to government officials in the Congo that the West has no idea if you're here today, gone tomorrow in another campaign of tribal/racial violence and genocide?

    Sure, the problem seems larger than anyone can effectively grasp. But you can't take it all in one bite. That's why it's crucial that we take our victories where we can, supporting, developing and yes, sometimes financing specific African governments that are moving toward reforms, be they IMF/World Bank reforms or whathaveyou. Otherwise, our world is less safe with fewer stable nations that are ripe for the spread of regional conflict, disease, and the harboring of hostile extremist movements.

    And there's your IR lesson for the day...for tomorrow, read pages 241-271 in Kegley's and Raymond's From War To Peace.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    And yet you can't ignore patterns in African racial and tribal strife that have not a damn thing to do with white colonization almost 200 years ago.
    200 years? White colonists were out of Africa 200 years ago?

    Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure that is not true.

    Is it unpalatable because it's largely true, or unpalatable because speaking such truth makes white Westerns feel guilty about their own comparative cultural success?
    It's unpalatable because it's ethnocentric and racist. If it is your intention to come of this way, very well. I just thought I would let you know that you sound like a paternalistic feudal lord arguing that his peons are too stupid to care for themselves. I thought you might NOT mean that. Arguing that civil war is destroying Africa is one thing - arguing that they needs white farmers to look after them is another.

    Yes, they should have left all the farms in white hands in Zimbabwe; at least then they would have had more than adequate food production and maintained at least a cursory level of domestic economic output.
    And they would still be a colony. To de-colonize one must put resources in the hands of the people. You can't leave all the land in the hands of white people and say that the country belongs to Africans. There is no avoiding this. But I notice that you didn't address my question about Zimbabwe's "progress" under it's own steam up until the debt load forced it to deregulate. Was that you just being kind because it was a stupid question? Or what?


    Obviously, there were serious negative consequences to poor choices made by colonial powers, the most significant of which were boundaries created in artifical and frequently arbitrary fashion, ignoring social, cultural and tribal considerations.

    Yet the tribal and racial strife that typifies much of African conflict currently is not a new phenonmena that we can attribute to Western colonization 200 years ago, nor its relatively sudden absence.
    But as you said - the arbitrary borders certainly didn't help. The nature of African society before colonization cannot viably be compared to African society now. I mean, really, if you think about it, you can't viably compare American society 200 years ago to now. I mean, you can compare and contrast. But that's all. That's just a Western bedtime story - the metaphorical mother patting her child on the back saying "It's all right, it's not our fault. There were problems before we even got there. And slavery? Everyone had slavery. Not just the American South. We didn't start it."


    The reason there's no apparent difference is that, to Africans, the concept of Western recognition, support and respect, seem like such distant and unreal goals. How do you explain to Africans in Nigeria--arguably the most powerful nation on the continent, despite endemic corruption--that their leadership on the continent has effects and potential that are unrealized when pursing campaigns of destabilization rather than conflict resolution and peacekeeping? How do you explain to the government of South Africa that denying that HIV causes AIDS cripples their future ability to establish political, economic and national security? How do you explain to government officials in the Congo that the West has no idea if you're here today, gone tomorrow in another campaign of tribal/racial violence and genocide?
    Offhand? Well. One could start by supporting the notoriously unreliable emerging democracies rather than the tinpot dictators we all dislike so much, but who do provide what we like to call stability. We could maybe attempt to leverage pharmaceuticals to provide reasonably priced/generic brand medications rather than encouraging them to peck like vultures at market share. Again, I think you are a little too enamoured of the idea of the stupid Africans rolling around in the filth they created without any of our help. And those situations in which we did help - so what, they would have (no doubt) done it on their own eventually anyway.

    Sure, the problem seems larger than anyone can effectively grasp. But you can't take it all in one bite. That's why it's crucial that we take our victories where we can, supporting, developing and yes, sometimes financing specific African governments that are moving toward reforms, be they IMF/World Bank reforms or whathaveyou.
    But isn't the precise problem that the governments that tend to be supported tend to be be the governments that simply advantage certain parts of the world that are not the parts of the world that they are governing? That nobody is so interested in developed Africa as getting their share? This is just sort of coming right back round to where we started.

    Otherwise, our world is less safe with fewer stable nations that are ripe for the spread of regional conflict, disease, and the harboring of hostile extremist movements.
    Okay. See. Here's a thing. Indonesia - very stable. But that didn't really make anything better for the East Timorese as the U.S. doubled military aid for Indonesia every year that they were occupied. Stability for us doesn't necessarily mean stability for everyone else.
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    I'm late to the game as usual, and my point is a little simplistic with regards to the above, but here goes:A large part of this HIV/Aids and overpopulation thing could have STARTED to be addressed if this administration had not cut of funding to the agencies in Africa that were providing birth control and women's gynecological services there.The "gag rule" has killed alot of these agencies off. There are many articles about the gag rule,but for this situation I refer you to the article "Birth of a Crisis" by Shelly Page of the Ottowa Citizen published October 23, 2004. I will look here in a min. to see if it is still linked; I printed it out and have it in front of me now.
    <snip>
    In a horrible irony, a US policy intended to prevent abortions has resulted in the death of family planning,counselling, contraceptives and an epidemic of illegal abortions.Mr. Bush ushered the policy into law his first full day in office in 2001. Supporters of this act, including anit-abortion organizations such as Concerned Women For America, argued the US does not pay for abortions in the US,and shouldn't overseas, either.Nor should family planning organizations counsel on abortions at US taxpayer's expense.
    .....
    Most of the international family planning organizations that refused to sign the conditons of the 2001 policy did not, in fact, provide abortions.....For example, Planned Parenthood Federation--the world's largest voluntary organization working in sexual and reproductive health care--lost $12 million because of its refusal to agree to the gag rule.
    <snip>
    I know you think that I am being political. Not really, just realistic. I am also not advocating that we go into each nation and try to save it from itself; that is impossible. But if we are going to give money/aid, isn't this one of the best places to start? At the root of one of the main problems?
    Since we are the richest nation on earth, I think we shoulder the biggest part of the responsibility here:if we're gonna help, let's HELP dammit! SHit or get off the pot. These fundamentalist-driven policy iniciatives have got to stop.

    You wouldn't have as many ppl starving to death if you had birth control.

    And yes, Scarlett Vancouver, it is literally rape, not metaphorally. These husbands rape their wives; the juntas rape women of other tribes as way of intimidation to that tribe and then their own husbands beat them for it.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Colonization of Africa began in earnest 200 years ago. At the end of WWII, most of these countries were in the process of being released
    But they were still occupied at the end of WWII. Cataloguing the beginning of colonization is not a fair indicator of end of the effects of it. I think cataloguing the END would be more accurate for these purposes.

    So, in other words, you're admitting that it's true, but that it makes you uncomfortable because you believe in cultural equivalency and you're ostensibly tolerant
    No. I'm saying that you are coming across as racist. I'm assuming that you are not, and would not wish to come across as racist. If you said that African Americans should all be repatriated against their will, or that they were only good for playing basketball I would say that you were similarly unpalatable. Nothing to do with the truth of your statement. If I believed in cultural equivalency, where would the culturally superior African population come in? Again - it makes me uncomfortable because it is racist. I believe that native Africans certainly have the native ability to govern themselves. You seem to be arguing the contrary. You might really want to re-read what you are posting here if you don't see the problem with that.

    And starvation from failed land redistribution schemes is better than a well-fed population supported by a minority race using an established system of agriculture? and I'm leaving out the part where you imply that my point of view is worthless, because on a global scale I am privileged, while yours is valid because of a global scale, you are ... similarly privileged?
    I don't know - I've personally never been faced with surviving in a feudal system as part of a ruled class. I do know that historically people have been WILLING to starve to get OUT of such situations. We could, in theory, consult with the actual people involved rather than deciding for them? Neither here nor there in any case. You have not presented even a tenth of a compelling argument that these are the only options. Surrender to your white lords or starve? Come on. You can't possibly mean that. And seriously - you're deciding that the native Africans are better off under their paternalistic feudal lords, and I'm the blindly arrogant one? Seriously.

    not the fact that a bunch of white farmers that have been there for over a hundred years owned a lot of the land.
    White farmers, who colonized, and controlled all the resources. Where do you see the options in de-colonizing and leaving all the resources in the hands of the colonizers? This makes no sense.
    Again, now who's being racist, even if you aren't aware of it? The whites that were disenfranchised at the point of a gun under Mugabe's orders were Africans; they'd been there for generations
    .
    Declaring the colonizers to be honorary natives is cheap and completely fallacious. That being said - I don't agree with forced repatriation for them either. But I do think they have to give up what they took - and don't be silly. If you can inherit the land, you can inherit the guilt.
    Remind me why this is preferrable to having a minority race as a functioning component of society again?
    Well - let's see. They weren't a functioning component of society. They were ?
    Zimbabwe's debt load is not unique, nor does it relate to the economic implosion started by Mugabe's party and military initiatives. Kinda hard to pay debt when you're driving off the few people that create actual wealth in your nation. I wouldn't recommend that.
    I didn't declare it to be unique. I asked if my understanding that during approximately the first decade of Zimbabwe independence the quality of life, from lower infant death rates, to higher school enrollments was accurate, and if the fact that it was in the early 90's, under a forced deregulation by the World Bank and IMF that the country started to decline in the corrupt, soggy pile that it is today had some significance. Live8 - encouraging forgivement of debt, thus eliminating said forced deregulation. Remember?
    You can't honestly think that the white farmers ran the entire farm by themselves? That they hoed, plowed, managed, etc.? You must see that a great deal of the work - I daresay the vast majority of the work was done by the peons. So, how can you possibly think they didn't know how to work the farm?
    you think Hutus and Tutsis are a 20th century creation?
    No. But I don't get your point. I don't think that liberals and republicans are a 20th century invention either. It doesn't change the fact that you can't viably argue that American society is the same as it was 200 years ago. Example - a big point of contention before the civil war was the abolitionist movement, which the republicans (I believe) supported. This is not still a bone of contention, even though the abolitionist movement had a great effect on American history that is still understood and felt today. You can't compare American Aborigines today to the way they were before colonziation. For good or bad, the damage is done, and we can't just act like they are untouched by time.

    It didn't happen "to" them--they were part of the change.
    What? They participated in their colonization? Did they also participate in their forced emigration? What are you even talking about right now? I mean, yes, they are obviously a part of their own history, but this does nothing to affect what I said.

    And you're clearly suffering from the common notion that native populations are somehow inherently more intuitive and cooperative if only...if only those damn Westerners hadn't interfered. Pick up Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel
    No thank you. And I don't think I've said anything remotely close to that. You're not even engaging with what I type anymore - just with what you assume "people like me" are going to say. What I said was that the notion that because Africans WEREN'T a perfect model of a peaceful society, the Euro-American colonization was inevitable and morally just is Euro-American self-justification and merely an attempt to avoid responsibility, and that bitch Karma.
    Who can seriously say there was some framework with which to begin work in Rwanda?
    Well, in Zaire and Zimbabwe, I think the multinationals that spent the 80's and 90's getting them further in debt and treating the native like the second class citizens you seem to think they are could tell you that there was a perfectly adequate framework.

    East Timor is a bad situation, but not one of American making.
    Not of American making? Did you not see the "doubling military aid every year they occupied"? What did America think it was making, then?

    "Oh, well, you have what is essentially a domestic conflict with a separatist regime, so we're not going to be involved with the fourth most-populated country on the planet, and we're going to take our ball and go home..." You just can't do that. Our support of Indonesia--even as bad as that place was under the Suharto regime--is better than walking away and doing nothing.
    A domestic conflict? It was a halocaust. Would you give military aid to Hitler, and argue that you couldn't change his mind about the pesky concentration camps if you weren't involved? So. No. It wasn't better than taking your billions of dollar in military aid - I mean your ball - and going home. Going home would have been preferable. Structure in Indonesia? Indonesia was never the problem. Well, it was the problem, but not in such a way that structure was at issue. Structure would have been at issue in East Timor.
    Your example is well taken, Jenny, but geopolitics is a zero-sum game, and you don't get points for refusing to play. You can't influence change if you're not involved.
    That doesn't even make sense. The U.S. consciously makes these things possible through carefully allocated aid, and then says "Not our fault, nothing to do with us, we just work here?" Come on, man.
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    There's much more to it than just who's running the government and who's farming the land - there's the day-to-day operation, the continuing maintenance and upkeep and, over time, the major repair/overhaul of all that makes up the infrastructure of a country, i.e., the roads, the bridges, the water and sewer systems, the electric power generation plants and distribution grids, the pipeline systems, the docks and harbors, the railway system, etc., etc., etc. In much the same vein, there's the myriad information/documentation systems that are critically necessary for the long-term survival of any nation-state (deed records, birth and death records, court records, etc.). Unfortunately, with the notable exception of the Brits, who did a fairly decent job of teaching, training and educating the indigenous peoples in their colonies to operate, maintain and repair their own infrastructure, such that they were largely able to continue functioning as before when liberated, the major colonial powers chose to maintain complete control over everything considered "vital" or "critical" to the continuing operation of their colonies. And, quite predictably, when their colonies were "liberated" (which usually occurred in a rather abrupt manner), the entire infrastructure of the countries rapidly ground to a halt - 'cause there was nobody left who knew how to run, fix, etc., any of it. Take a look at Angola - was there shortly before the Portugese bailed and it was running just fine: clean water, fully operational sewerage system, electricity on demand, etc.; less than three months after the Portugese left the only operating telephone line to the outside world was on a Chevron platform offshore!

    Now, add all the other shit ya'll have been discussing on top of that, and it's easy to see why things went to hell so quickly when the colonial period ended.
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Your reductionist labelling tendencies are like a billboard of ignorance....
    Simplistic labels like....say..."strict constructionist", "social engineering", and the beyond ubiquitous "liberal" or "left" stamps of dissapproval from Ann Coulter clones.

    ---

    The problems of hunger, disease, crime and despair in many parts of Africa are currently actually improving, not worsening. See the recently published (in the UK) Africa Commission Report on how international aid is working or not, and a plan for future aid programs which will take into specific consideration, the lessons of the past. Sources of aid are not specifcally identified, only the effects and future.

    topic.http://www.commissionforafrica.org/e..._cr_report.pdf

    Of course our sensationalist media takes it upon itself to eschew relevant reporting in exchange for completely brain dead, but psychadelically colored vomit.
    Last edited by stant; 07-03-2005 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Declaring the colonizers to be honorary natives is cheap and completely fallacious. That being said - I don't agree with forced repatriation for them either. But I do think they have to give up what they took - and don't be silly. If you can inherit the land, you can inherit the guilt.
    Really? So, how far are you willing to take that? Own any real property? Willing to give it back to the Native Americans you (by virtue of inheritance and/or title passed to you after being similarly inherited) took it from?

    And how about the life, liberty, and labor taken from the African Americans enslaved by your forefathers that was effectively converted into a large portion of the basic wealth upon which this country has since been built? You willing to ante up a 5 or 6 digit figure sum to pay their heirs some 1/2 dozen or so generations removed for what your ancestors some 1/2 dozen generations back took from them?

    Sorry, but your theory re "inheritance" just won't work. In point of fact, the only real/time-honored method of gaining title to land is via the barrel of a gun. Basically, land paid for in blood is yours to keep and pass on through inheritance... and for however so long as the same basiic regime/government stays in power and manages to quell any domestic revolts and fend off any attempts to forcibly take it, it will remain yours. But, as the white Africans have learned the hard way, when the government which sanctions your title falls and/or ceases to assert sovereignty over the area in which your land lies, you don't own shit anymore.
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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    it's that you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it.
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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    I watch a lot of African news, music, etc, on TV5 and Telesud... it's a big continent with a multitude of cultures, peoples, traditions....incalculably more diverse than North America but more so than Europe as well... I promised some folks I'd visit them in France next year but Africa is definitely next...

    you never know until you go...

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Destiny - I'm not particularly politically savvy. But did you say that most countries in Africa are being ruled by communists? Are you sure, or were you joking, or what? My understanding is that the problems in Africa are largely because they are being ruled by (what are essentially) military junta, which are largely funded externally through military aid, etc. But as I said - politics and current events are not really my thing. So which countries in Africa are communist?...
    Jenny: Since Saturday morning follows Friday night, perhaps I should refrain from posting until my fourth cup of coffee? Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I actually meant to go back and insert something like, "and/or tyrannical dictators", or something to that effect. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was very successful in installing a number of communist governemnts on the continent. With the break up of the Soviet Union, some of these governments have changed their tone somewhat. Whether they have in fact, changed their practices, I do not know.

    If I understand correctly, many of the dictators of Africa came to power preaching Marxist/Lennist philosophy. You know, the poor worker is being oppressed by the rich, let's rise up and take control, that kind of thing. Given the huge disparity of wealth on the continent and the massive poverty, you could see how such a line would attract a large following. Once in power, the tyrant's commitment to Marxism varies greatly. Most only want to line their pockets with cash and conduct genocide on their enemies, which happens to coincide with what a lot of communist dictators do, but may not strictly be required in order to be a good communist. However, like most dictators, many of the rulers of Africa suffer from paranoia and are loathe to allow their citizens few, if any, freedoms, whether economic, political, or religious. Among Africa's many problems are the prevalence of corrupt, tyrannical dictatorships. These countries follow a strict top-down model of central economic planning, and greatly limit their people's freedoms, both of which are hallmarks of communist regimes. Whatever name we give them, they are the biggest hindrance to improving the quality of life of Africans.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    boom check it
    yall know a nigga expressed some suspicion on the true intent of this stupid pr front
    but i had no factsno nothin just a feelin
    so i looked it
    up
    from a biassource ofcourse!
    Pilger, going to the heart of the matter, said, "Africa's imperial plunder and tragedy have been turned into a circus for the benefit of the so-called G8 leaders due in Scotland next month and those of us willing to be distracted by the barkers of the circus: the establishment media and their 'celebrities.' The illusion of an anti-establishment crusade led by pop stars—a cultivated, controlling image of rebellion—serves to dilute a great political movement of anger. In summit after summit, not one significant 'promise' of the G8 has been kept, and the 'victory for millions' is no different. It is a fraud—actually a setback to reducing poverty in Africa. Entirely conditional on vicious, discredited economic programmes imposed by the World Bank and the IMF, the 'package' will ensure that the 'chosen' countries slip deeper into poverty." There's more, much more . . .

    "Is it any surprise that this is backed by Blair and Brown, and Bush; even the White House calls it a 'milestone'? For them, it is a useful facade, held up by the famous and the naive and the inane. Having effused about Blair, Geldof describes Bush as 'passionate and sincere' about ending poverty. Bono has called Blair and Brown 'the John and Paul of the global development stage.' Behind this front, rapacious power can 'reorder' the lives of millions in favour of totalitarian corporations and their control of the world's resources." That sounded more like the truth than Geldof and Bono's bone-headed praise.


    Pilger, going to the heart of the matter, said, "Africa's imperial plunder and tragedy have been turned into a circus for the benefit of the so-called G8 leaders due in Scotland next month and those of us willing to be distracted by the barkers of the circus: the establishment media and their 'celebrities.' The illusion of an anti-establishment crusade led by pop stars—a cultivated, controlling image of rebellion—serves to dilute a great political movement of anger. In summit after summit, not one significant 'promise' of the G8 has been kept, and the 'victory for millions' is no different. It is a fraud—actually a setback to reducing poverty in Africa. Entirely conditional on vicious, discredited economic programmes imposed by the World Bank and the IMF, the 'package' will ensure that the 'chosen' countries slip deeper into poverty." There's more, much more . . .

    "Is it any surprise that this is backed by Blair and Brown, and Bush; even the White House calls it a 'milestone'? For them, it is a useful facade, held up by the famous and the naive and the inane. Having effused about Blair, Geldof describes Bush as 'passionate and sincere' about ending poverty. Bono has called Blair and Brown 'the John and Paul of the global development stage.' Behind this front, rapacious power can 'reorder' the lives of millions in favour of totalitarian corporations and their control of the world's resources." That sounded more like the truth than Geldof and Bono's bone-headed praise.


    just as i syuspected!

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    the UK Guardian is usually pretty balanced if not outright liberal, and here is their 'take' on Mugabe's programs ...

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Okay Melonie - we are setting up a dichotomy where none exists. There is no liberal/conservative divide on this issue. In this world we are not limited to decisions of white/African feudalism or... well, Mugabe. I never said that Mugabe was a nice guy. What I did say was that to dismantle white colonialism in Africa one would necessarily have to redistribute the land. I also asked about how forced deregulation by the World Bank and IMF impacted the improving lives of Zimbabwans when they faced a debt crisis. Never did anyone on this board claim that the current government in Zimbabwe was not corrupt.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Is it just me or is it weird that Live 8 never wanted to raise any money for poverty but just wanted to raise awareness??

    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Live 8 actually wanted to raise .... your TAXES , such that the govt's of various countries would then be able to send more of your tax money to Africa.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Live8 is trying to gain political leverage - the idea being that at least some of the people attending the concerts will go home in their G8 countries and lobby their government for debt forgiveness in Africa. Because they decided that simply lobbing large amounts of money at Africa wasn't working.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Veteran Member stant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    the UK Guardian is usually pretty balanced if not outright liberal, and here is their 'take' on Mugabe's programs ...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/a...521337,00.html
    Bravo. Citing a source from a publication trusted (at least trusted not to be conservative) by the other camp is a powerful argument. Calling it outright liberal is also fair.

    A personal fave:

    This one could have been written by Ann Coulter's liberevil twin:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselection...314554,00.html

    More importantly, going back to the original Live-Aid , check out the line up of bands the participated:

    http://www.herald.co.uk/local_info/live_aid.html#prog

    Looks like just about everyone signed to a major label except pre-grunge pro-misery bands like REM and the Smith's showed up. They were spared the humiliation of singing in that endlessly played Christmas song, which still makes me cringe.
    Last edited by stant; 07-06-2005 at 07:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Live8 is trying to gain political leverage - the idea being that at least some of the people attending the concerts will go home in their G8 countries and lobby their government for debt forgiveness in Africa. Because they decided that simply lobbing large amounts of money at Africa wasn't working.

    Wow, someone who is actually conscious enough to be aware of the reality of what Live8 was actually about. Bravo Jenny!

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Weekend Reports
    Jenny,

    While it is very noble , it's probably a waste of your time to try and change the mind of a racist.

    I am enjoying your posts though as they are interesting, educational and just plain right on the money.
    They are not educational and not right on the money. It's called propaganda.

    White people come - it's their fault.
    White people leave - it's their fault.

    Luckily most thinking people simply write off such trolls and let them protest with their little signs out on the streets while the rest of us try to work to make a better world.

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    Default Re: Live8 kills americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    They are not educational and not right on the money. It's called propaganda.

    White people come - it's their fault.
    White people leave - it's their fault.

    Luckily most thinking people simply write off such trolls and let them protest with their little signs out on the streets while the rest of us try to work to make a better world.
    Wow. How unnecessarily rude and dismissive. This is because I'm a woman, isn't it? You are not even reading or engaging with what I type. You are simply doling out prefab response to what you think "people like me" will say. It's fine to think that you know everything that "people like me" will say to such situations. But when you type it out and put it down you just come off as insulting and illiterate. And in what way were my questions about ESAP/World Bank/IMF propoganda? Or, for that matter, about white people?

    The CIA website has details about how the crisis of debt in the early 90s impacted the life of Zimbabweans, and their rising standard of living. Last time I checked, they were not a site dedicated to liberal propoganda.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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