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Thread: Sad day in London today...

  1. #1
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Sad day in London today...

    You all must know the story by now...

    I am noticing that people on TV are starting to use the words "radical Islam" in place of "terrorism." They are saying "Don't go and blame the friendly muslim next door" but I am seeing a change of words slowly creeping in. This is a change of attitude and perspective.

    Funny it is the Europeans starting to use the words instead of the US who has always been careful to try and seperate terrorism from Islam.

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    It's REACTIONARY not RADICAL. Should be called EXTREMIST if the newsmedia people still can't use their dictionaries.

    We have many kinds of terrorists in this world. Here are a few of them -
    • political terrorists, as we see most everyday (whose political agenda is paramount to them)
    • disease terrorists (those who dont care who they infect (HIV, HepC, etc), as long as they get off)
    • sexual terrorists (predatorswho dont care who they ruin, as long as they get off)
    • chemical terrorists (drug pushers who are killing society's security in such insidious ways)

    Largely these people should just be eliminated. They very well know what they do; they just dont friggin' care. So why should we care about their lives?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Britain, Holland, Spain, Germany, and other european countries have experienced a large amount of Arab immigration in recent years. Arab immigrants have been particularly obstinate about integrating into european society. Arab immigrants have been a 'magnet' for government benefit money, in much the same way as Mexican immigrants in California. Arabs have also been caught taking an active part in many crimes, including high profile assassinations. Thus many 'non-immigrant europeans' look upon Arabs with a rough equivalent of racial descrimination i.e. Deutsche-neo-nazis, Pym Fortuyn (sp?), Jean LePen, and Arab immigrant policies were openly discussed issues in recent elections.

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    Veteran Member leebay88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Call it whatever you want. Makes me sick to my stomach. Called my buddy who lives in London and he said one of the bombs went off right outside his office. uggg

    Funny that I was on the subway this morning (from Rock Center to my apt) no increased presense of any Police. Makes me feel so fucking safe in NYC.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Funny that I was on the subway this morning (from Rock Center to my apt) no increased presense of any Police. Makes me feel so fucking safe in NYC.
    Not meaning to be facetious at all, but there really isn't a lot that NYC cops are allowed by law to do anymore. They couldn't randomly detain and search 'arab looking' subway travellers for fear of being sued for 'profiling'. Since the courts have decided that terrorists are entitled to the same US civil rights and due process any any other criminal, the cops couldn't take any action without 'probable cause' - which is not going to happen unless a would-be terrorist bomber is stupid enough to carry a package with TNT stamped on the sides.

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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    im the onethat wantsto be with yooooou (im the ojneeee)
    deepinside i hopeyou feel ittoooo (feel it tooooooo
    im standin on alineof green and blue (standin on a line)
    just tobe the enxt to be with you
    slut


    anyway yeah wasnt the uk working on pushing a national idcard./chipthing through



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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    chemical terrorists (drug pushers who are killing society's security in such insidious ways)


    what?

    drugs are cool

    haha

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    Veteran Member leebay88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Not meaning to be facetious at all, but there really isn't a lot that NYC cops are allowed by law to do anymore. They couldn't randomly detain and search 'arab looking' subway travellers for fear of being sued for 'profiling'. Since the courts have decided that terrorists are entitled to the same US civil rights and due process any any other criminal, the cops couldn't take any action without 'probable cause' - which is not going to happen unless a would-be terrorist bomber is stupid enough to carry a package with TNT stamped on the sides.
    Yeah I know that just a little more presense would have been nice.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    Largely these people should just be eliminated. They very well know what they do; they just dont friggin' care. So why should we care about their lives?
    Perhaps because we aren't like them?

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    I have a British colleague who has been telling me for years that it is essentially impossible to protect the mass transit system of any large city from attacks of this type, that preventing hijackings of commercial airliners is child's play by comparison.

    Sometimes it must be a terrible feeling to be right.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Banned TerpsichoreToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Britain, Holland, Spain, Germany, and other european countries have experienced a large amount of Arab immigration in recent years. Arab immigrants have been particularly obstinate about integrating into european society. Arab immigrants have been a 'magnet' for government benefit money, in much the same way as Mexican immigrants in California. Arabs have also been caught taking an active part in many crimes, including high profile assassinations. Thus many 'non-immigrant europeans' look upon Arabs with a rough equivalent of racial descrimination i.e. Deutsche-neo-nazis, Pym Fortuyn (sp?), Jean LePen, and Arab immigrant policies were openly discussed issues in recent elections.
    Having just returned from spending a year in Europe I can tell you that is not the commonplace view at all. That maner of thought is usually limited to members of hate based groups just as it is here in America. The main group of people Europeans seem to dislike these days is Americans and mostly because of the war in Iraq.

    I called my good friend who lives in London to make sure she was ok when I heard the news today. Thankfully she is fine as are her loved ones. She did however tell me that there is a alot buzz going around there that George Bush may have ordered the bombings to try and scare Blair into not withdrawling troops.
    Last edited by TerpsichoreToo; 07-07-2005 at 11:58 PM.

  12. #12
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    First off, my heart goes out to the Londoners.

    Second off, when it comes to just pulling over someone who "looks wrong," I'll note that there are Greeks, Turks, Italians, Albanians, Arabs, Palestinians, Jews, Persians, Kurds, Egyptians, etc., who all could pass for "Arab-looking."

    I'll also note that there are many hundreds of thousands of these types of folks living perfectly normal lives in New York who are not remotely terrorist. You want to start pulling them all over without probable cause?

    I'll also note that before 9/11, the worst terrorist act on American soil was carried out by a red-haired Caucasian of Scottish descent.

    In the land of the mostly free, the balance of security and freedom is a tough act. I personally don't care for my country to turn into a place where you'll get pulled over by a "Do you heff your papers?" authoritarian because you have olive skin, a five o'clock shadow, and dark hair.

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    Banned TerpsichoreToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    In the land of the mostly free, the balance of security and freedom is a tough act. I personally don't care for my country to turn into a place where you'll get pulled over by a "Do you heff your papers?" authoritarian because you have olive skin, a five o'clock shadow, and dark hair.
    I agree.

    Let's not turn back the hands of time and go with mindset of the blonde hair blue eyes equals a superiour human being please. I thought the world had beome a better place than that....reading some of the posts in this section has given me pause on that subject though

  14. #14
    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    I think Britian, Australia and plenty of other countries have always tried to remember that Islam doesn't = terrorism. British media especially is generally careful and thourghtful with the terms it uses.
    I think the distinctions are used here (England) currently because traditionally bombings and bomb scares in London tended to almost always be by the IRA. The recent bombings however seem more in par with other bombings by Islamic groups in recent years.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Again Godwin's law is proven !

    I agree with you that as long as a significant portion of the US and European populations continue to view Islamic Terrorism as the insane acts of a tiny minority of loosely organized malcontents, that there will be no real safety and no real 'victory'. Ultimately, it will probably take the death of 100,000+ civilians and a radioactive crater 1/4 mile wide to change that view.

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    ... there really isn't a lot that NYC cops are allowed by law to do anymore. They couldn't randomly detain and search 'arab looking' subway travellers for fear of being sued for 'profiling'.
    And why should they. What percentage are terrorists? How many has the govt caught in the US yet? Say there are 5 times as many as have been caught. So what is that? Maybe 100? Out of a few million Arabs? Sounds like the needle in the haystack. Percentage-wise lot more inner-city negroes sell/use illegal drugs. And Latinos are illegal immigrants. so do we round up the whole lot iof them for investigation. Sounds like paranoia tome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Since the courts have decided that terrorists are entitled to the same US civil rights and due process any any other criminal, the cops couldn't take any action without 'probable cause' - which is not going to happen unless a would-be terrorist bomber is stupid enough to carry a package with TNT stamped on the sides.
    This cannot be right. If we catch possible terrorists in a country like Afghanistan or Iraq, we lock them up in Guantanamo for the duration of the war (what, 10-20 years?) with no trial. You think this country would hesitate to do that to an alien caught in a US terrorist plot? They would probably get their faces blow off first. Court would never see them.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  17. #17
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Again Godwin's law is proven !
    Mel, that is patently unfair. I have not, and never have, compared any poster here or their views as Nazi-like, and I view such comparisons as ill-guided and ignorant of what Nazis really were. My little fake-quote was meant to be a satirical sample of a society where freedom has given way to "security," and I think that that meaning is fairly clear in the context of my posting.

  18. #18
    Banned TerpsichoreToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    as long as a significant portion of the US and European populations continue to view Islamic Terrorism as the insane acts of a tiny minority of loosely organized malcontents, that there will be no real safety
    So we are suppossed to treat every person of Islamic faith or has physical triats similar to Islamic desent as terrorist now ?

    -shakes head disapprovingly-

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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    OK, I live just outside london and went in last night to pick up a friend.

    The roads were fairly quiet last night as many people had heeded the call to stay at home. Worst hit was public transport. It pretty well shut down as a precaution as the bombs went off and slowly repoened.

    The main line, (overground), railway services were up and running within a few hours and the buses started running in outer London, but not in the city itself. The underground stayed closed yesterday, (Thursday), but has largely now reopened. The bomb damaged bit will need repair, a few days in two cases, several weeks in the worst instance.

    Everywhere was pretty calm - the good old British stiff upper lip - and everyone, (transport permitting), just got on with their business.

    Hell of a mass of people in central London though - many gave up and stayed in hotels, (some of which disgracefully doubled their prices.)

    I think the basic attitude of anyone in London to the bombers is "f*ck em". Personally, I don't give a sh*t what they do, I'm not changing a thing I'm doing.

    Don't usually agree with the Mayor of london, Ken Livingstone, but thought I'd share his message to the terrorists with you.

    "....I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life."

    "I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail."

    "In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential."

    "They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don't want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail."

    Phil.
    (From London and proud of it.)

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W
    (From London and proud of it.)
    As well you should be.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    My first suspect is Mi5
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    This cannot be right. If we catch possible terrorists in a country like Afghanistan or Iraq, we lock them up in Guantanamo for the duration of the war (what, 10-20 years?) with no trial. You think this country would hesitate to do that to an alien caught in a US terrorist plot?
    yes, for a fact. The courts have already ruled that suspected terrorists captured within the USA (precedent Moussaoui trial) must be afforded equivalent US civilian legal and due process rights. See then follow up with

    excerpt ...

    "(US federal court judge*) Brinkema said she barred any Sept. 11 evidence against the defendant because "it would simply be unfair to require Moussaoui to defend against such prejudicial accusations while being denied the ability to present testimony from witnesses who could assist him in contradicting those accusations."

    Brinkema postponed the effect of her ruling so the government could appeal.

    Two of the prisoners (Moussaoui wanted to question in open court*) were among Osama bin Laden's top operatives, Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and a key planner of the attacks, Ramzi Binalshibh. The third is Mustafa Ahmed al-Hawsawi, a suspected paymaster for al-Qaida.

    Brinkema was responding to government defiance of her rulings in January and August, which granted Moussaoui the right to question the prisoners through a satellite connection. Their testimony also could have been used during his trial.

    Brinkema concluded that Moussaoui's constitutional right to potentially favorable witnesses took precedence over the government's need to protect classified information that could be revealed in testimony by the captives. (which would immediately become a matter of public record via trial transcripts*)"


    PS, Jay, my Godwin's Law comment was crystallized by Terp's response to your post (which IMHO left very little room for alternate interpretation), not by your original post.
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-08-2005 at 06:13 PM.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    My first suspect is Mi5
    Nah man, it was James... James Bond.

    If not him, then it was KAOS.

  24. #24
    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    yes, for a fact. The courts have already ruled that suspected terrorists captured within the USA (precedent Moussaoui trial) must be afforded equivalent US civilian legal and due process rights.
    And, your problem with that is... what?

    The key words here are suspected and within the USA. Accusations are incredibly easy to make - and the government's not only got a long and well-documented history of making accusations against individuals as well as groups that are ultimately shown to be specious at best, and wholly unsubstantiated at worst, but its also got a long and sordid track record of going after specific ethnic groups when it decides it suits its purpose - and, almost every single time "National Security" is offered (with virtually no contemporaneous explanation tof any kind, whatsoever - just the standard "it'll compromise 'sources and methods'") as justification.

    Bullshit. The whole point of the Constitution is to have a basic, invioable set of restrictions on the authority and the power of the government so as to prevent it from ever acting and behaving in just such a way.... What good is the damned thing if we're just going to toss it on the side every time the going gets tough? That's the "Ed Meese/John Ashcroft School of Social Problem Solving," i.e., GOT A PROBLEM? TRADE A RIGHT... too much gun violence, no prob... f*** the 2nd Amendment; too much drug use, no prob... f*** the 4th Amendment; too many "suspected terrorists" running around inside our borders, no prob... who the Hell needs Due Process anyway. And eventually, of course, we'll get to too much info about how much of this crap the governments making up leaking out or being exposed in Court, no prob... f*** the 1st Amendment ('cause hey, it's 'NATIONAL SECURITY") and WTF, if the "WE SAY SO CORPORATION ACCUSES YOU, WHY THE HELL DO YOU EVEN NEED A TRIAL ANYWAY?!?

    Hmmm... oops, my bad, forgot (well, truth is keep trying to forget!), WE'RE PRETTY MUCH THERE ALREADY, COURTESY OF THE 'PATRIOT ACT.'
    "That's your answer Old Man? I guess you're a Hard Case too...."
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  25. #25
    Banned TerpsichoreToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Excellant post GnBeret !

    I'd like to add that by allowing our individual and collective suspicions and fears manipulate us into giving up these rights we are letting the terrorist win.

    If a person is suspect of anyone and everyone that walks by them on the street or in the airport who "looks" like some of the terrorist (i.e dark hair and olive skin or in traditional Muslim dress) then they have allowed the terrorist to win.

    The only way to beat these people is to not think or act in such a manner.

    Terrorism's ultimate goal is to take away our freedoms, our way of life. To make us fearful everyday.

    When Americans or other "free people start profiling the entire Middle Eastern population or the entire religion of Islam as a threat then the first step in terrorism's ultimate goal has been advanced.

    If people are serious about doing their part against terrorism it starts with not judging the many by the acts of a few.

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