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Thread: Sad day in London today...

  1. #26
    Veteran Member charlygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    What I dont understand is why on eart do news programmes insist on having features discussing public places that do not have any protection , or enough protection, from terrorists. Do they think these people dont watch TV?
    Its like telling a murderer parts of your body where they can stab you to ensure that you die.

    As for racial profiling, forget that, Londons so ethnically diverse the police would have to stop every 3rd person they see because a hell of a lot of different people can pass for looking like an Arab.

    I predicted when I left that someone would find some easy place to put bombs and they did, a train on teh underground and on teh seat of a bus are obvious because the majority of people still wont get it into thier heads that terrorism can be anywhere close to them and walk away after seeing these packages. Ita all so teribble. There has to be another way to solve problems than killing innocent people who've done nothing.

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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by charlygirl
    As for racial profiling, forget that, Londons so ethnically diverse the police would have to stop every 3rd person they see because a hell of a lot of different people can pass for looking like an Arab.
    We are indeed an ethnically diverse city, so stop and search on "racial profiling" grounds in not really an option. Unfortunately, political correctness does sometimes get in the way of policing. It's very difficult to strike a balance between increasing the surveilence/policing of people of Arab appearance - the most likely current terrorists - and not alienating the Arab polulation of london, 99.99% of which will want nothing to do with the bombers.

    Quote Originally Posted by charlygirl
    I predicted when I left that someone would find some easy place to put bombs and they did, a train on the underground and on the seat of a bus are obvious because the majority of people still wont get it into their heads that terrorism can be anywhere close to them and walk away after seeing these packages. Its all so teribble. There has to be another way to solve problems than killing innocent people who've done nothing.
    Firstly, London is a much bombed city, and certain basic precautions have been in place for years - for example you won't find many litter bins on railway and underground stations, because there were a favourite place to hide bombs. That said, there is no way you can stop a sfficiently determined terrorist orgsnisation planting a bomb in London - it's too "soft" a target.

    Secondly, the problem with a lot of these 'radical Islamic' terorists, (putting aside the obvious "motives" like Iraq and Afghanistan, is that they are inherently hostile to the West.

    The more radical forms of Islam, (or indeed any other religion), tend to flourish where there is great poverty. The quality of life can be so poor for people in some countries, that the only "hope" they have is the promise of a better life in the hereafter - a great selling point for any religion. Improve the quality of life, and people tend to be less religious, as some of their motivation for signing up has gone. IMHO it's for this reason that many in 'radical islam' tend to be hostile to the msterialistic West - rising standards of living reduce the recruits to their brand of religion, and tend to result in the more moderate and main-stream forms of islam becoming dominant.

    Phil.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    And, your problem with that is... what?
    My problem with that is that enemy spies and saboteurs caught on US soil in previous conflicts have been treated exactly as such ! In this latest example of legislation from the bench, the judge has determined that Mr. Moussaoui's 'US civilian' legal rights entitle him to 'face his accusers', which effectively requires that the US gov't/military divulge classified information in a public forum relating to other detainees captured and held outside of the USA i.e. how they were captured, how our intelligence services operate, how much we know about what in regard to intelligence info etc. This disclosure is absolutely certain to make future intelligence gathering and capture efforts more difficult, if not actually causing additional deaths of US military and civilians. Thus the US gov't faced a very real option of having to let Moussaoui 'walk' in order to protect intelligence sources and info thanks to this judge's unprecedented interpretation of relevant/proper application of US civilian law. Fortunately, Moussaoui's own stupidity in insisting on acting as his own attorney and eventually pleading guilty prevented him from 'walking' away a free man.

    From what little I understand about similar UK law ... typically applied to captured IRA members in the past but relevant to captured Islamic terrorists today... no such 'legal right' to an open trial with classified information being freely introduced into a public court record would exist.

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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    My problem with that is that enemy spies and saboteurs caught on US soil in previous conflicts have been treated exactly as such ! In this latest example of legislation from the bench, the judge has determined that Mr. Moussaoui's 'US civilian' legal rights entitle him to 'face his accusers', which effectively requires that the US gov't/military divulge classified information in a public forum relating to other detainees captured and held outside of the USA...

    From what little I understand about similar UK law ... typically applied to captured IRA members in the past but relevant to captured Islamic terrorists today... no such 'legal right' to an open trial with classified information being freely introduced into a public court record would exist.
    There is a duty of disclosure in UK law - if the prosecution comes into possession of information that will be of use to the defence, that information must be passed over.

    There is an option open to the government where sensitive information will come into a public court - it's called Public Interest Immunity. In effect the goverment certifies that information that should be available to the defence would damage UK interests if released, and thus the information stays secret.

    This is perfectly acceptable if the individual taking the decision act in an impartial manner and for the public good. Unfortunately, there are examples of information being witheld because it was politically embarrasing, and not damaging to UK interests.

    A classic example of the was the Matrix Churchill trial about 15 years ago. A maverick minister, Alan Clark, overrode the advice of his civil servants and would not sign the PII certificate. Information embarrasing to the government came out and the trial collaped. Had Clark not had the courage to act as a disinterested servant of the Crown, innocent men would have gone to jail.

    Non-disclosure of information to protect intelligence sources, etc., is OK if done for the highest of motives. Unfortunately politicans and civil servants are all too human, and can sometimes withold the information purely to save themselves problems.

    Phil.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Thank you, Phil. The USA of course also has its share of politicians, both liberal and conservative, who are not shy about leaking or supressing particular information for political purposes. Be that as it may ...

    There is an option open to the government where sensitive information will come into a public court - it's called Public Interest Immunity. In effect the goverment certifies that information that should be available to the defence would damage UK interests if released, and thus the information stays secret.(snip)

    Non-disclosure of information to protect intelligence sources, etc., is OK if done for the highest of motives
    This was exactly what I was talking about. The US federal judge in the Moussaoui case basically issued a ruling that suspected terrorists/spies/saboteurs cannot be prosecuted based on evidence stemming from sensitive/classified information unless the US gov't is willing to fully disclose that information in open court thus making said information, the sources of that information, and the means that said information was collected, totally public.

  6. #31
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Note that countries whose citizens enjoy few, if any, of the civil rights being discussed here have no better luck than we or the Brits at preventing terrorism. The current salient example would be Chechnyan terrorism in Russia. So, in addition to all of the other reasons for not compromising our standards of cvil rights in the "war on terrorism", note that giving them up doesn't even help the anti-terrorist effort much. In other words, we have a lot to lose and little to gain.

    -Ww
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    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
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  7. #32
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Note that countries whose citizens enjoy few, if any, of the civil rights being discussed here have no better luck than we or the Brits at preventing terrorism. The current salient example would be Chechnyan terrorism in Russia. So, in addition to all of the other reasons for not compromising our standards of cvil rights in the "war on terrorism", note that giving them up doesn't even help the anti-terrorist effort much. In other words, we have a lot to lose and little to gain.

    -Ww
    That is an excellent observation!

  8. #33
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Note that countries whose citizens enjoy few, if any, of the civil rights being discussed here have no better luck than we or the Brits at preventing terrorism. The current salient example would be Chechnyan terrorism in Russia.
    Obviously there are a large number of 'other' factors involved which essentially negate the analogy ... including local gov't officials and a significant percentage of the local population supporting Islamic Terrorism as an adjunct to their own campaign for political independence, and Al Queda/other organized Islamic Terrorist groups supporting that campaign for independence as an adjunct to their own agenda. It is also very noteworthy that since Putin has responded with an 'iron fist' policy, Chechnya has indeed become very 'quiet', and Chechyn islamic terrorists are turning up fighing in the Middle East instead of at 'home'.

    It is actually arguable that an 'iron fist' policy has in fact been quite effective in causing islamic terrorists to change their 'foreign targets' list away from countries who have enacted stricter border controls and domestic anti-terrorism measures, to other countries with lax border controls and domestic anti-terrorism measures. Of the list of 'foreign targets' actually hit so far, the US, Russia and Australia (Bali) responded with tougher policies and a firmer determination to oppose islamic terrorism. Only Spain chose not to do so, arguably resulting in its current use as a conduit for islamic terrorists to enter Europe and arguably bolstering Osama's stated goal of reinstituting a modern day Andalusia.

    Of course that same question is now before the Brits, and it remains to be seen how that will actually play out.
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-10-2005 at 06:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Note that countries whose citizens enjoy few, if any, of the civil rights being discussed here have no better luck than we or the Brits at preventing terrorism. The current salient example would be Chechnyan terrorism in Russia. So, in addition to all of the other reasons for not compromising our standards of cvil rights in the "war on terrorism", note that giving them up doesn't even help the anti-terrorist effort much. In other words, we have a lot to lose and little to gain.

    -Ww
    I would've liked to see the Chechens try it back in the days of the Soviet Union, though. Russia isn't what it used to be.

    Friend of mine who used to be on a SAR team in the military told me a story once of how a Soviet diplomat was kidnapped back in Lebanon ("back in the day" heh).

    The Soviets figured out who did it and kidnapped their entire families and took them to Russia for "safeguarding". They didn't want anyone retaliating against the families of those who had taken the Soviet diplomat was the official reasoning.

    Their diplomat was soon released after the Soviets dropped several hints of how long they'd safeguard the families of the terrorists and no other Soviets were ever kidnapped like that.

    We, on the other hand, endured a year+ hostage situation.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Lunetta's Avatar
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    Sad Re: Sad day in London today...

    what happened in England is really horrible!

    I'm scared it will happen again in some other countries. I live in Amsterdam -Holland- and in the summer is one of the most populated EU capitals .

    In Holland we have a lot of Arabs, we can not controle them anymore!!! This winter the journalist T. van Gogh propropro nephew of the famous painter van Gogh made a film about moslim women and how their husbands treat them. He made it to make Dutch people understand how difficult the life of moslim women is... and ... the moslims immediatly killed him, even before this movie was in the cinema is was killed!
    Since this happens moslims became very aggressive here. They put boms in the centre in some shops and museums, they raped many Dutch girls and they even made manifestations.
    I'm very scared from them, there are so many here and they even have their moslim political party... unbelieveble!!!

    xxxLuna

  11. #36
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Obviously there are a large number of 'other' factors involved which essentially negate the analogy ... including local gov't officials and a significant percentage of the local population supporting Islamic Terrorism as an adjunct to their own campaign for political independence, and Al Queda/other organized Islamic Terrorist groups supporting that campaign for independence as an adjunct to their own agenda.
    Any specific case will differ from any other specific case in many ways, so I suppose one cannot prove anything definitive about how much it would help our anti-terrrorist efforts if we were willing to sacrifice (more of) our civil rights, but the fact remains that terrorist movements have operated very successfully in many countries in which the authorities are not constrained by significant civil rights issues. One could name many examples other than Chechnyan terrorists in modern Russia. A very extreme one would be the extensive terrorists campaigns by the populations of many countries occupied by the Germans in WW2 (which we, of course, more normally characterize as courageous resistance movements). Surely no one could wish for a more iron fisted and less civil rights constrained effort to suppress them than that mounted by the Nazis, but it still didn't work.

    It is actually arguable that an 'iron fist' policy has in fact been quite effective in causing islamic terrorists to change their 'foreign targets' list away from countries who have enacted stricter border controls and domestic anti-terrorism measures
    The Israelis will be delighted to hear that ... (another example of how limited the effectiveness of the "iron fist" is in reality).

    Imo, the deeper point is that we so abhor the prospect of living with terrorism that we (some of us) are willing to grasp at straws and embrace any possible policy that we think will just make it go away. If you go around the net a bit, you can quickly find people who think that nearly every possibility, from appeasement of the Arab/Islamic radicals to nuking the whole ME, would be a quick and easy answer. All illusion, imo; they can hit us in the way they did in London and in other similar ways and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future no matter what we do.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Lunetta, while I'm sure that the Theo Van Goch assassination, Pym Fortuyn's political movement and subsequent assassination etc. are well understood in Holland, they received essentially zero press coverage in the USA. I get the distinct impression that mainstream US media does not want the impression to be left that in fact a significant number of Dutch, along with a significant number of Brits, Germans, French, Italians & other europeans, in reality have 'had it up to here' with Islamic immigrants ... many of whom do little else besides collect social welfare benefits while preparing for the next assassination/bombing.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    As the BBC article below illustrates, the governements of the European democracies are typically less constrained by the legal civil rights of their citizens (a la our Bill of Rights etc). If they deem it necessary these governments can act much more freely against suspected terrorists. It will be interesting to see if this gives them any effective protection from actual attacks; as per my posts above, I expect that it will be of little help.

    -Ww

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    France 'to expel radical imams'
    French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy has vowed to deport any Muslim cleric preaching violence.
    Speaking after meeting his Spanish counterpart in Madrid, Mr Sarkozy said he would seek the expulsion of imams in France "whose sermons are radical".

    Mr Sarkozy said France and Spain had agreed tougher joint measures against Islamic militancy.

    Two days ago, France reimposed border controls with its EU neighbours following the London bombings.

    Call for unity

    After meeting Spanish Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso, Mr Sarkozy told reporters radical preaching would no longer be tolerated in France.

    "The [French] republic is not a weak regime and it does not have to accept speech which on the pretext that it is happening in a place of worship calls for hate and murder.
    "Those who persist in this way will systematically be the object of an expulsion procedure."

    Over the past decade France has expelled several foreign-born Muslim preachers after accusing them of abusing their positions by inciting violence.

    The minister said Western countries must unite in the fight against al-Qaeda.

    "I know of only one policy against these people - firmness, arresting them, punishing them, penalising them, in Madrid, London, New York, everywhere.

    "We must never allow ourselves to give them the satisfaction of a division between us," he said.


    Mr Sarkozy said he and Mr Alonso had agreed to strengthen co-operation in the fight against Islamic militancy.

    France has stepped up security measures in the light of the London bombings, including restoring border controls with its EU neighbours.

    On Thursday, French President Jacques Chirac warned that no country was immune from terrorist attacks.

    "These terrorists have a mentality, a psychological state that is different from our own. All efforts must be made to fight against terrorism," he said.

    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...pe/4688111.stm
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    As the BBC article below illustrates, the governements of the European democracies are typically less constrained by the legal civil rights of their citizens (a la our Bill of Rights etc). If they deem it necessary these governments can act much more freely against suspected terrorists. It will be interesting to see if this gives them any effective protection from actual attacks; as per my posts above, I expect that it will be of little help.....
    Much as I hate to rain on your parade, the measures quoted in the BBC article were agreed well over a year ago - the European Union has been dithering on introducing them for 12 months and it took something like the London bomb to spur them into action. Being a Brit, and having long experience of the EU, my money is on these measures fading back into oblivion as soon as the London bombing becomes yesterday's news.

    What would be effective in the UK would be to depart the very small number of really radical Islamic preachers - maybe 50 - 100 in all. Many of them came to the UK with the express intent of radicalising the Islamic population - and in the most extreme cases have expoused a Caliphate where the UK becomes an Islamic state subject to strict Islamic law.

    Now I have nothing against free speech - roll on Voltaire - but I believe that free speech carries obligations as well. One of those obligations is to respect the traditions of the UK, which after all gave these radical preachers sanctuary, not least because they claimed they were fleeing persecution in their own countries.

    If you can't respect our centuries old British custom of tolerance towards all races and creeds, and instead advocate a Caliphate in the UK, then as far as I'm concerned you should be deported forthwith.

    Phil.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sad day in London today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Lunetta, while I'm sure that the Theo Van Goch assassination, Pym Fortuyn's political movement and subsequent assassination etc. are well understood in Holland, they received essentially zero press coverage in the USA. I get the distinct impression that mainstream US media does not want the impression to be left that in fact a significant number of Dutch, along with a significant number of Brits, Germans, French, Italians & other europeans, in reality have 'had it up to here' with Islamic immigrants ... many of whom do little else besides collect social welfare benefits while preparing for the next assassination/bombing.
    On an email discussion list I am on, there was a dutch guy who had a lot of words about tolerance and was somewhat anti-american in his views - especially when it came to dealing with radical muslims.

    Then van goch was stabbed to death with a note literally pinned to his heart with a knife and he settled down a little bit.

    This is a cultural war no matter what anyone says. If it wasn't for one thing (aka the Israeli support) it would be for another.

    France has been dealing with gangs of immigrant muslim men raping french women. Apparently wearing a short skirt means you had it coming and "your just a woman of low morals so what does it matter?"

    With the import of all those foreigners was the import of foreign ways and beliefs... and we can certainly see what a mess of the muslim world those have made.

    I feel sorry for the moderate muslim to be grouped in with such thugs.

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