Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 102

Thread: Scientology

  1. #51
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    1,391
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon
    And no, I don't believe that publishing a book makes a person an expert. I have a problem with the word "expert" in general. It says in a way that a person knows everything there is to know about a topic. And I think that's pretty impossible.
    Hey! You trying to say you're an expert at "experts"???


    I'll go back under my bridge now....
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

  2. #52
    Banned Madcap's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Saint effing Louis
    Posts
    6,804
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Carl Sagan's
    Baloney Detection Kit



    Based on the book "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark" published by Headline 1996.


    The following are suggested as tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious or fraudulent arguments:




    • Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts
    • Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
    • Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").
    • Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
    • Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.
    • Quantify, wherever possible.
    • If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.
    • "Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.
    • Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, it is testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?


    Additional issues are

    Conduct control experiments - especially "double blind" experiments where the person taking measurements is not aware of the test and control subjects.
    Check for confounding factors - separate the variables.


    Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric

    Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.
    Argument from "authority".
    Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision).
    Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).
    Special pleading (typically referring to god's will).
    Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
    Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).
    Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).
    Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!)
    Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved").
    Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.
    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect.
    Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).
    Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).
    Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?").
    Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).
    Confusion of correlation and causation.
    Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..
    Suppressed evidence or half-truths.
    Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public"

  3. #53
    God/dess erotictonic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Watching lalaland
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    .......

  4. #54
    Banned Madcap's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Saint effing Louis
    Posts
    6,804
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    .....


  5. #55
    God/dess erotictonic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Watching lalaland
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    ...........

  6. #56
    God/dess
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,210
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlerz
    I celebrate breastology...is it true pumpkin pie scent is a sexual turn on for men?
    You will only lure me into your bed with SWEET POTATO pie miss whirl.
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


  7. #57
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    209
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    If you can't say anything nice, hold hands and sing "Kumbaya"!
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

  8. #58
    God/dess Rhiannon's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lil Rhody
    Posts
    10,471
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by polecat
    Hey! You trying to say you're an expert at "experts"???
    Heh.. Oh yeah, that's me.. Totally!

  9. #59
    Featured Member Crow's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Down South
    Posts
    1,145
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
    My Mood
    Happy

    Default Re: Tom Cruise is nuts dot com

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsy_girlchild
    Are you saying that none of this can be found in other religions? Please don't try to tell me that. The history of many religions it built on lies, murder, and extortion. Plus, all I am defending is what I chose to take from the religion. Why do YOU feel the need to rip into a religion anyway? Everyone treats their religion differently, some follow it to the hilt and some just call themselves a part of it. So why can't I try and defend some of it?
    Have I said that it is perfect? No. There are many things I don't like about it and of course right now I feel like I am repeating myself.
    So call it a cult if you want, I don't believe it is. If you don't want to be a part of it then don't be, but don't try to rip into something that I grew up with. SO I don't know everything, does anyone truly know everything about their religion? No.
    Do I want to know everything, obviously not. Would you rather I list the things wrong with it? Or the things I took with me? I choose to remeber what I took with me.
    Speaking of lies, murder and deception.. Do I really need to point the finger at the catholic church? Hell, they have methodically and slowly even picked apart entire nations of people, like when they took Indian children away from their families and just destroyed an entire way of life. I wont go into the many incidents that involved blood, killing and all in the name of their "god".

    This is documented history, Like the Salem witch Trials. Which was under the guise of once again, God and his so called law - Scientology is no better and I treat it as such.

    When individuals ask me to give my time, money and faith to something that is that hypocritical, no. I think I'll just stick to my ideals and be happy with that - at least I don't have to subjugate people to get them to listen to me.

    Miss R

  10. #60
    Senior Member Archangel's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    100
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    For the record... I am a Roman Catholic. I know several Scientologists. All are extremely well adjusted, highly educated (MBAs, CPAs and PhDs), and wealthy. They seem to be genuinely happy and love to spread good cheer. None of them mention anything about Scientology unless directly asked. There are also members that still hold their positions as rabbis, priests and ministers.

    None of these things point to a brainwashing cult.

    Personally, I believe taking anything I hear (even from my own family) or read with a grain of salt. I do, however, put full faith in my own experiences. My experiences with scientology show me that most members (ie. the several I've met) are perfectly sane and respectable, regardless of what people think of their religous philosophy.
    -=# Archangel

    "Who is to say what is a sin in God's eyes?" (Pearl from The Scarlet Letter)
    "Every man dies; not every man really lives." (William Wallace from Braveheart)

  11. #61
    Banned Madcap's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Saint effing Louis
    Posts
    6,804
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    I don't know how well adjusted they were, but most of the people in the Heaven's Gate cult were highly educated and wealthy.

  12. #62
    Veteran Member Pumpkin Pie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    718
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by polecat
    Hey! You trying to say you're an expert at "experts"???
    Have a question about boarding schools?
    Get it answered at Boarding School Forums.

  13. #63
    Jay Zeno
    Guest

    Default Re: Scientology

    Hey, my brand of arrogance is the best.

  14. #64
    Veteran Member Pumpkin Pie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    718
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by erotictonic
    A degree in psychology and a minor in business does not make you an expert on cults. Neither does writing a book.
    Those with the other things I listed does make me one. You don't get asked to sit on discussion panels at colleges by way of a raffle system.

    Encouraging a person to learn more does not include calling them ignorant or chastising them, which you have done both.
    Read the progression of my posts.

    It's how you are choosing to communicate your ideas that is annoying.
    You disagree with my position. That's clear.

    Everything you write has this narcissistic air about it, as if you are the number one expert on everything there is.
    You're the one making such great leaps in conclusions. I'm not. Have I said I'm the expert on everything? No. You disagree with my take on Scientology. I can back it up with facts. Your counter-argument is to call me "fucked-up" and a horrible parent. Yup, I'm the one that as a mental issue.
    Have a question about boarding schools?
    Get it answered at Boarding School Forums.

  15. #65
    Banned TerpsichoreToo's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    60
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Maybe if we just lie say he is the all knowing ,all seeing master of the universe the arrogant and narcissistic posts will end. Then people can go back to having a real discussion about the subject matter.

  16. #66
    God/dess
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,210
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Stripperweb is a cult
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


  17. #67
    God/dess Rhiannon's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lil Rhody
    Posts
    10,471
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    That we are.

    ::passes out Nikes and Kool-Aid to all::

    Look at that comet!

  18. #68
    Featured Member showgirlschloe's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Somewhere in Ohio
    Posts
    907
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: Scientology

    I actually find the things that Pumpkin Pie and Madcap have written very interesting. I know nothing about the religion Scientology and I always find the backgrounds and origins of religions very fascinating. My husband's uncle is a catholic priest and he is one of the most interesting people to talk to. He's one of those rebel priest that really tells you how things are and doesn't glaze it over to make you believe. One thing he says that cracks me up is that if you believe in water turning into wine, and the parting of the seas then you believe in santa claus, a fat little pervert sliding down fireplaces giving toys to kids.

  19. #69
    Veteran Member Pumpkin Pie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    718
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon
    I agree with ET. And no, I don't believe that publishing a book makes a person an expert.
    That's one of the biggest qualifiers for being classified as an expert. That's definitely one of them that the press uses as for who they go for expert opinions (a.k.a. soundbites). The quality of the book naturally having a major issue in that. How good are its reviews and the credentials (usually the books they've written themselves) of the reviewers.

    I have a problem with the word "expert" in general. It says in a way that a person knows everything there is to know about a topic. And I think that's pretty impossible. Things are constantly evolving and branching off. No one can possess ultimate knowledge. You just take what you've learned, work with it, learn even more still.
    So no one can be an expert on anything? Someone has already made the joke about how you can then be an expert on experts so I won't.

    My definition of what an expert is someone that has intensely studied a subject, has a good depth of understanding about it, can back their statements with facts, and is able to articulate their positions in discourse with others. And good indicators of an expert are, for example, being asked to speak on the topic to people in the field, being asked by a professor in the field to talk to their classes, asked to sit on discussion panels focusing on the topic, releasing a white paper on the topic (here's one that I did in 2003 on p2p: http://www.adservius.com/pdf/P2P_Revolution.pdf and that resulted in many calling me an expert on that technology and being interviewed by reporters, talk show hosts, college classes, and so forth), writing a non-fiction book on the topic (or aspect of it), doing one's doctorate dissertation on the topic, having one's paper on the topic published in a scientific journal in the field, and things along these lines.

    If you don't believe in experts, then I assume you ask the person on the street to give you a medical exam ... or review a legal document for you ... or ... well, you get the idea.

    I would be very interested in reviewing the proposal.
    PM me your postal address and real name. I'll send you a NDA for you to sign and mail back to me. You'll need to get it notarized. I'll then send you the book proposal. The NDA is needed to prevent the proposal from being posted to the web or circulated in another fashion as doing so would hurt its sale to publishers.

    I'm open-minded enough.
    The book is not open-minded. It makes conclusions and is judgmental. One of those being that cults (and religions for that matter) are bad overall for society. Scientology will be a common thread through it since it is a modern-day cult that is in the process of becoming an established religion. Not that it will become an established religion as there are other perils it has yet to survive (such of the passing of the first generation of disciples), but it has survived earlier killers of cults (such as the death of its founder).

    I just ask that you are the same way with other members is all.
    Re-read my posts. I agree with Gypsy at times. I've tried to keep a level tone. However, I do point out some things and don't sugar coat them. We learn not by agreement but through evolution of our thoughts. Evolution is Darwinian.
    Last edited by Pumpkin Pie; 07-08-2005 at 11:19 AM.
    Have a question about boarding schools?
    Get it answered at Boarding School Forums.

  20. #70
    God/dess erotictonic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Watching lalaland
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Pumpkin Pie
    Those with the other things I listed does make me one. You don't get asked to sit on discussion panels at colleges by way of a raffle system.

    Oh bullshit. You sat on discussion panels at colleges as much as the man in the moon did. Everyone can see you are full of fucking shit. Why don't you cut the crap. The "other things you've listed" include being a marketer. Yea, that makes you an expert on cults. Hey, just calling a spade a spade. It takes a LOT LOT LOT more than the credentials you've listed to call yourself an expert on anything other than bullshit.



    Read the progression of my posts.



    You disagree with my position. That's clear.



    You're the one making such great leaps in conclusions. I'm not. Have I said I'm the expert on everything? No. You disagree with my take on Scientology. I can back it up with facts. Your counter-argument is to call me "fucked-up" and a horrible parent. Yup, I'm the one that as a mental issue.
    You HAVE said you were an expert.... on cults. The point is not that you have SAID you were an expert on everything, but over time reading what you post, it would seem you think you are. Everything you write is from a superiority stance of "I'm an expert, so listen to me, young padawan." I never said I necessarily disagree with anything.... that's not the arguement, and a whole different issue. I just don't like, and have never liked, the way you choose to communicate your ideas. I could give a shit about scientology. My point with calling you "fucked up", which I think you are, possibly an NPD, is to point out that you thinking she is "ignorant" and you need to educate her, others think that about you, but they don't say it, as if they are the supreme knowledgeable being of the universe. For the time I have posted on this board, you have been here with the same problem. That was my point, not just to call you fucked up, but you missed it. It's apparent that you have some pretty disturbing issues in the way you choose to communicate. Hey, I've been there, so don't get all bent out of shape. Just try to become aware of it.
    Last edited by erotictonic; 07-08-2005 at 10:51 AM.

  21. #71
    Veteran Member Lurker's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    209
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    It's definitely hard to try and start a major religion in modern times since all your ideas are scrutinized scientifically and debunked. The Mormons cribbed some stuff from Christianity so they got a running start. Scientology is basically a huge, carefully-crafted tax shelter, from what little I know about it. But I'm not sure that the core teachings of either are any more or less valid/defensible than any of the major world religions--they're just coming of age in a more skeptical time.

    It's pretty clear to me that if you use the dictionary definition of expert (a specialist), PP qualifies as an expert on cults based on his presented pedigree. If you want to define the word in such a way that it basically never applies for nontrivial matters (someone who knows EVERYTHING about a subject) and deny that he's an expert on that basis, I'm not sure who you're trying to prove something to.

    We can judge religions by what they do for their believers (often a great deal of good, sometimes not), what they do to the world at large (often a great deal of bad, sometimes not), or their stated beliefs about the universe (generally hard to swallow or even ludicrous). If people take comfort in the things Scientology tells them and teaches them, I don't know that it's my place (or anyone's place) to try to shake them out of it.

    But it's not the way I would want to live my life.
    "All this time you were pretending
    So much for my happy ending."
    --Avril Lavigne

  22. #72
    Jay Zeno
    Guest

    Default Re: Scientology

    Pumpkin is an expert in cults.

    Dictionary definition: expert
    A person with special or superior skill or knowledge in a particular area

    He is a person with special knowledge in the area. I don't personally grant him superior knowledge, because he's talking and writing out of clear bias, with rigid conclusions, with a motive to persuade rather than present balanced evidence. But I doubt that he cares what I grant him.


    Legal definition: Expert
    A witness who by virtue of special knowledge, skill, training, or experience is qualified to provide testimony to aid the fact-finder in matters that exceed the common knowledge of ordinary people.


    He would be qualified in a court as an expert, because his knowledge exceeds that of the common person. However, the judge would also be careful to tell the jury that just because he's an expert doesn't make him believable. That's up for the recipient of his information to decide.

  23. #73
    Veteran Member Pumpkin Pie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    718
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by showgirlschloe
    I actually find the things that Pumpkin Pie and Madcap have written very interesting. I know nothing about the religion Scientology and I always find the backgrounds and origins of religions very fascinating. My husband's uncle is a catholic priest and he is one of the most interesting people to talk to. He's one of those rebel priest that really tells you how things are and doesn't glaze it over to make you believe. One thing he says that cracks me up is that if you believe in water turning into wine, and the parting of the seas then you believe in santa claus, a fat little pervert sliding down fireplaces giving toys to kids.
    He would be an interesting person to talk to. In fact, I almost became a minister myself. I was quite along the path to becoming one. To the point of having my childhood minister and church willing to sponsor me through seminary college. However, before I took such a final step, I decided to research in more depth the religion I was going to preach. That lead to me posing some pointed questions to ministers of my denomination ... which lead me to pose similar questions to ministers of other Christain denominations (from a Southern Baptist minister to a Catholic bishop) ... which lead me to asking similar questions of ministers of other religions ... which eventually lead me to become a realist (we're just animals and when we die, that's it). Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" (http://tinyurl.com/bpt29) was the last straw that broke my religious back. It was from here that my interest in cults began and continued since. I don't hate them. They're fasinating to me. A great subject to ponder, research, and discuss.
    Have a question about boarding schools?
    Get it answered at Boarding School Forums.

  24. #74
    God/dess erotictonic's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Watching lalaland
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts

    Default Re: Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    Pumpkin is an expert in cults.

    Dictionary definition: expert
    A person with special or superior skill or knowledge in a particular area

    He is a person with special knowledge in the area. I don't personally grant him superior knowledge, because he's talking and writing out of clear bias, with rigid conclusions, with a motive to persuade rather than present balanced evidence. But I doubt that he cares what I grant him.


    Legal definition: Expert
    A witness who by virtue of special knowledge, skill, training, or experience is qualified to provide testimony to aid the fact-finder in matters that exceed the common knowledge of ordinary people.


    He would be qualified in a court as an expert, because his knowledge exceeds that of the common person. However, the judge would also be careful to tell the jury that just because he's an expert doesn't make him believable. That's up for the recipient of his information to decide.
    He hasn't proven that to me. Just because someone says they are, doesn't mean they are. And if you go back to his posts over time, he thinks he's an expert on everything under the freaking sun. According to that definition, there are "experts" walking around all over the place. Hell, I'm an "expert" on certain subjects. I think an expert should have a lot of credentials, and I will stick to that definition.

    I along with Rhi have a problem with people who call themselves "experts". Anybody can do so, but that doesn't make them, in my mind, truly an expert. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that being an "expert" doesn't really mean anything then. I suppose I didn't know the true meaning of the word. Jesus, the way "expert" is thrown around, it's pretty pathetic. In other words, it's the first alert that the person is more than likely a bullshitter or they're trying to convince you to believe them, for some reason, monetary or whatnot. BEWARE OF EXPERTS!!!!
    Last edited by erotictonic; 07-08-2005 at 11:15 AM.

  25. #75
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: TomCruise etc etc etc

    So.....

    ...does Tom Cruise know the history of psychiatry or not?


    Now that this argument is settled,can we start talking about something else in Off-Topic Discussions...

    ...maybe Off-Color Discussions...

    ...like SEX?

    So what are you wearing? How many times do you do it per week?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Scientology (raising a kid)
    By Sophia_Ashley in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 05-11-2008, 10:51 AM
  2. Scientology ?
    By Sand in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 05-06-2008, 01:38 AM
  3. Scientology Vs Hackers OMG
    By Inna in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-06-2008, 01:09 AM
  4. Scientology's Wikipedia Page Hacked
    By Inna in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-31-2008, 03:36 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-07-2005, 10:08 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •