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Thread: Islam, Pro & Con

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    Default Islam, Pro & Con

    Per TerpsichoreToo's request about not posting certain comments in the thread she started re: Islam, I am posting my comments by starting this thread. I have already read all of the posts in the other thread.

    Quoting from the other thread, "Islam remains the best specimen of peace and a lighthouse for the whole humanity." My question, if this is so, is how are the so-called "honor killings" of women reflective of "...the best specimen of peace..."?

    While this link is only anecdotal, and the opinion of the man who authored it, it is still an interesting example of a certain kind of thinking

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/honor_killings.htm

    and in the interest of providing a different view from the Muslim Women's League

    http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hk.html



    PhaedrusZ

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    For whatever reason my other post was deleted, I will say it again..I don't think muslims and islams should be allowed to come over here to the US..theres no point! And how they get over here, who knows. I do understand that some people here in the US are all for them and even garb up like they do, and if they like it so much, send their ass back over there along with the others! I dont want to have to worry about my neighbors putting bombs under cars or doing some other stupid stuff to start crap over here. Sure, they got a place to live here, but only because they cant be discriminated against..doesnt mean the landlord doesnt want to evict them, because he would like nothing better. They sit out here on the curbs drinking beer all day long for cripes sakes! At least the "normal" people either stay inside or go in their backyard so no one can see them, but for some reason these islams/muslims think they can get special treatment. They really dont need to be here..thats why I say all the troops should be pulled out and quite a few bombs should be dropped over there..enough to turn it into a glass parking lot. Piss on them, they're the reason that people's families are getting killed and that some kids will grow up not knowing their fathers. Sure, they signed up for it knowing full well what they were getting into, but that doesnt change my feelings towards it. If the assholes over there would shape up and act like they have a lick of common sense, we wouldnt have as many problems. But no. They still want to train the kids to use guns and kill. And for some reason people say dont discriminate against them?? Bah. Send em all back over there where they came from. And I really hope my posts arent deleted -again- because I wasnt trying to start any kind of flame wars, I was just voicing my opinion like so many others do here in the poo. And if someone doesnt like it, who cares?? I dont like some opinions of others. Doesnt mean I make a big stink about it.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Silly me, I got so fired up and excited I realized my post wasnt deleted, lol. But since it really didnt belong where I put it in the first place......carry on!

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Wow post #2 was one of the more offensive and ignorant things I ever have read. In fact it sounds very much to me like the attitude that the actual terrorist express.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Sounds like the "Back to Africa" movement to me. Well, long ago we did started to in Liberia.

    Unfortunately it's 100% stereotyped now as it was then.

    How about Colombians and Oreintals and their cocaine imports. And Turks and French for their heroin trafic? How about Bosnians and Croats as they are related to the Turks who overran the Balkans in the Byzantine Empire? Or the Irish and their excessive drinking and their IRA? Or the Jews and their exporting of capital to Israel and control or the world banks and the media? Lets see....... I'm running out of stereotypes. More later....
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredDancer
    For whatever reason my other post was deleted, I will say it again..I don't think muslims and islams should be allowed to come over here to the US..theres no point!
    If someone had told me you were a racist, and a bigot...I would've never believed them...hmm guess I spoke to soon.







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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Thats fine, you can think what you want of me. I completely understand that there are all different sorts of opinions in this world, and I certainly won't resort to name calling when I don't agree with someone. No one is perfect, and Im not claiming to be.

  8. #8
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    It would be unconstitutional, and rightly so, to try to exclude immigrants on the basis of religion.

    Under this line of reasoning, the Catholics could've been excluded because there was "no point" in them being here. Same for French, Italians, Germans, Poles, Russians, Greeks, Jews. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. And so on. I suspect that some of these "what's the point" type of prohibitions could apply to ancestors of about any person who has posted here.

    If you have opinions that appear to be generally racist or ethnicist, you can expect dissent, whether the dissent is a "big stink" or not.

    If you're highly prejudiced in a country that works to eschew prejudice, and you make your prejudice public, you can expect some form of public rebuke.

    If you attribute bad acts to people who have not committed bad acts, you can expect rebuttal from people in a country that values due process and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    There are all types of people that make the world go round..

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
    Under this line of reasoning, the Catholics could've been excluded because there was "no point" in them being here. Same for French, Italians, Germans, Poles, Russians, Greeks, Jews. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. And so on. I suspect that some of these "what's the point" type of prohibitions could apply to ancestors of about any person who has posted here.
    Ditto.

    And I am pretty sure that the Native Americans would have dearly loved to get a piece of that "no point" action!

    -Ww
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Jay - no point to the Chinese? No point to the Japanese? Who else do you think was going to build the railways? As I'm sure you are aware, after the railways were built and there was indeed, no point to them, was when prohibitive head taxes were introduced to prevent the Chinese immigrants from bringing over spouses and breeding here.

    And
    If you attribute bad acts to people who have not committed bad acts, you can expect rebuttal from people in a country that values due process and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
    to quote my mother, Word!
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Ditto.

    And I am pretty sure that the Native Americans would have dearly loved to get a piece of that "no point" action!

    -Ww
    <----- Mescalero Apache

    Well, yes. It would have been appreciated.
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    If you have opinions that appear to be generally racist or ethnicist, you can expect dissent, whether the dissent is a "big stink" or not.

    If you're highly prejudiced in a country that works to eschew prejudice, and you make your prejudice public, you can expect some form of public rebuke.

    If you attribute bad acts to people who have not committed bad acts, you can expect rebuttal from people in a country that values due process and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
    That's all well and good, but our miserable immigration policies are based on fear of being labelled racist rather than protection of national sovereignty and border security. Merely saying so tends to elicit kneejerk labelling...like the term, "racist."

    We're not looking for Lutherans from Norway or Catholics from Nigeria or Buddists from Nepal to target American or European interests and civilians; we're looking for Islamists that have their roots in Middle Eastern nations, who may or may not have migrated to Western Europe or the United States, with the intent of carrying out jihad. If that makes people uncomfortable, that's really too bad but that's reality.

    Reality is a right bitch sometimes.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    <----- Apache & Blackfoot.

    You dont see me whining about how the white men stole our land, do you?

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    Veteran Member lwtex52's Avatar
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    ...and as I used to explain to my ex-inlaws, we no longer rape and pillage except on holiday weekends, at weddings, and the occasional bar mitzvah. They never understood the humor in that statement.
    My latest conspiracy theory: I am convinced that Dick Cheney is, in reality, Elmer Fudd.

  16. #16
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    That's all well and good, but our miserable immigration policies are based on fear of being labelled racist rather than protection of national sovereignty and border security. Merely saying so tends to elicit kneejerk labelling...like the term, "racist."

    We're not looking for Lutherans from Norway or Catholics from Nigeria or Buddists from Nepal to target American or European interests and civilians; we're looking for Islamists that have their roots in Middle Eastern nations, who may or may not have migrated to Western Europe or the United States, with the intent of carrying out jihad. If that makes people uncomfortable, that's really too bad but that's reality.
    And that's all well and good, but it's not quite the point of what is now Post #2 in this thread, which is what I was rebutting.

    If people want to come over in support of violence, of course keep them out.

    If you want to exclude people based on religion, that is unAmerican and unConstitutional. So is punishing people for crimes they haven't committed.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    BUT if you dont KNOW if they are coming over in support of violence or not, would you want them here at all? There's no way to tell what their intentions are. Thats why I think they shouldnt be here.

  18. #18
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    That is true of any immigrant.

    And frankly, it doesn't matter. Discriminating based on religion, which is specifically the proposal here, is unConstitutional.

    I had racially bigoted relatives. I was critical of their most outrageous statements that specifically targeted black Americans. They would shrug their shoulders and say, "That's the way I feel." I still felt perfectly OK with being critical. As I do now.

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    While no suspects have been arrested in the London murders, police are focusing on Islamic groups based in Europe. You may recall that four of the leaders in the 9/11 attacks were originally drawn to terrorism in one of Germany's radical Muslim communities. Thanks to a friend that e-mailed me an article in today's Wall Street Journal, I thought I'd share what type of world these Mulsims seek.

    TORCY, France -- Mourad Amriou slowly warmed up the crowd inside a small mosque on the outskirts of Paris, giving the congregation a pep talk after the Friday evening prayer.
    "Just nearby here are Fatimas and Mohammeds who are drinking," said the beefy 26-year-old former rapper, using generic names for Muslim women and men. "Can you believe it? Just around the corner, going to nightclubs. Do you accept it?"

    There were murmurs of disapproval as he continued. Life, he said, should center on mosques. Not just for prayer, but for everything from language classes for children to social life. Otherwise, he said, Muslims will become indistinguishable from their French neighbors. "Society has to be based on Islam," he told the gathering.

    In France and across Europe, messages like this are finding a broad audience...the message is radical: People who are different are held in contempt. Mingling with mainstream society is frowned upon. Society should be founded on one religion: Islam. Magnified by the power of demographics, messages like Mr. Amriou's are presenting a profound challenge to Europe's secular democracies...

    Often young Muslims in the West are unmoored from their traditional beliefs and ripe for recruitment by radicals," says Olivier Roy, a leading expert on political Islam and an adviser to the French government.

    Those recruiters sometimes come in the form of jihadist preachers who encourage acts of terrorism like Thursday's bombings in London...A network of terrorists drawn from the fringes of Europe's Muslims staged spectacular attacks in Madrid and the murder of a Dutch filmmaker last year...

    Laying the groundwork for such radicalization is the seductive idea of political Islam, which preaches a Utopian view of society where all citizens are part of a just and fair "umma," or community of Muslims. In this world, the separation of religion and politics is heretical, and Europe's Muslims -- now representing between 5% and 10% of the continent's population -- need to be walled off from Western culture...

    The effect on Paris's banlieues [suburban areas where many immigrants live in poverty] was dramatic. People living and working there recount how personal freedoms were restricted as the new ideology took hold.

    Nacera, a 27-year-old clerk living in Paris who asked that her last name not be used for fear of harassment, recalls that era. Like many Muslim children, she attended a mosque to study the Quran. She liked learning classical Arabic and counts the time there as one of the most memorable of her childhood.

    By the time she was a teenager, however, things began to change in her banlieue of Stains. As the Muslim community became more established, mosques began to pop up. Many were normal places of prayer, but others offered an agenda on how to behave. Her family's mosque, frequented by Mr. Amriou, fell into the latter category.

    "It used to be that at weddings people would mix and dance," she says. "Then we weren't allowed to mingle. It was an accumulation of little things."

    The religious fervor hit her youngest sister, who started wearing a veil. She quickly gave up school and married. Her brothers began to collect religious videos and books by Middle Eastern religious authorities on how to be a good Muslim.

    After repeated requests by stalwarts at the local mosque and pressure at home, Nacera started wearing a veil and was urged to marry and have children. But she was a few years older than her sisters and had already started to work. About two years ago, she realized she wanted a career. To do so, she says, she had to break with her family.

    "I felt I needed my own territory," says Nacera. She left Stains for a new home in the south of Paris. "I didn't want everything decided for me by the mosque."

    Others notice similar changes. Jocelyne Clarke, a teacher at a high school in Aubervilliers, says it is becoming harder to organize field trips and cultural outings with her students because Muslim boys and girls refuse to mix with the other sex. Some Muslim students have walked out of class during readings of Voltaire because the 18th-century author was scornful of religion in his writings, she says.

    Two years ago, the city council of Aubervilliers gave in to Muslim associations' demands that it close off the municipal pool to men at certain times of the week so that Muslim women could bathe in private, in keeping with the Quran's admonition that women dress and behave modestly. The city council also agreed to put up curtains over the pool's big bay windows, which give onto the street.

    In Saint-Denis, El Mostafa Ramsi says junior high-school students brought to tour the neighborhood's famous basilica, where most of France's kings are buried, have refused to enter the church on the grounds that it is "an impure place." Mr. Ramsi, 46, who emigrated to France from Morocco when he was 20 and now serves as the local representative of a center-left political party, says parents of children who attend the local elementary school have asked for translations of parent-teacher meetings in Arabic. "It shows that they couldn't care less about integrating," he says. "They don't even make the effort of learning French."

    Nadia Amiri, a 45-year-old Algerian immigrant who works in the central office of France's state-run hospital association, says the divisions go beyond schools. Hospitals are under pressure not to allow men and women into the same wards -- even as visitors. If carried out, that would require separate Muslim hospitals, she says. Doctors are also increasingly asked by fathers to issue their daughters virginity certificates.

    That's the kind of world these people seek. A world centered around the mosque, where all political decisions are at their essence religious ones. A place where the idea of separation of church and state is unknown. A world where having a drink or even an innocent dance at a wedding is evil. Where little girls are coerced and pressured to give up the idea of an education and a career, marry and and have children. After they have obtained their "virginity certificate" of course.

    We are involved in an epic clash of cultures. At stake is whether the world will continue to advance or whether these narrow-minded religious zealots will drag a large portion of the planet back into the 19th century. It's interesting that some of Islam's biggest defenders on this board are frequent critics of the "religious right" here in the U.S. Can someone show me the difference? Oh yes, there is one, the religious right rarely resorts to violence while for radical Islam, terrorism is standard procedure.


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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    ^ The wolf is at the door in France and the Netherlands. It's probably too late for them to correct this course.

    Failure to assimilate is rejection of the culture of the host nation. We have the same problem here with the Southwest.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    ^ The wolf is at the door in France and the Netherlands. It's probably too late for them to correct this course.
    True. And don't forget Andalusia ... formerly known as Spain ! Andalusia's resurrection is one of Osama's stated priorities. "Those who refuse to learn from history are destined to repeat it" ... with bombs instead of swords this time.

    "Only the ignorant and enemies of Islam will not want to talk on Caliphate. Middle East means Caliphate and nothing. A Muslim must take baya i.e. the oath of allegiance at the hand of a Caliph as it is part of faith. No nation can survive without a leader. So World Muslims can not survive without a Caliph. So called Israel was created after Sultan (Caliph) Abdul Hamid refused it and so Without Caliphate there will be no peace in This World, I repeat without Caliphate there will be no peace in this World and surely without Caliphate the World will be destroyed by those who destroyed the Caliphate." (from "GLIMPSES OF WORLD HISTORY ON "END OF FIRST MILLENNIUM AFTER CHRIST" BY JAWAHARLAL NEHRU )
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-11-2005 at 08:05 PM.

  22. #22
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    I think this stuff is supposed to be contrary to what I was writing, although I haven't seen direct rebuttal in the last three posts.

    And I'm not saying to ignore realities. But I'm also saying that we mustn't ignore American principles.

    There are people who would bomb abortion clinics, who would administer a test for faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to qualify for public office, and who would put their faith-based institutions as the cultural center of the country. I'm not making this up.

    Another set of people will talk about how the country has turned totalitarian and repressive long ago, that it's up to them to teach the citizens the truth, to overthrow the repressive regime by force, and perhaps to send anyone who isn't white Anglo-Saxon packing to prison camps and other countries.

    But all that is illegal and unConstitutional. One can get frightened to hear them talk and wonder about what they'll do to advance their agenda. And then one can devise ways to keep them from advancing their agenda too dangerously.

    So let's take the ones who look wrong and believe wrong and not let any more in. Ship out the ones who are already here. Repress religion. Storm the camps of the crazies and lock them up. And then we have become illegal and unConstitutional ourselves. It's the balance between establishing security and honoring freedom.

    The United States was built on the strength of English common law and legislative and judicial process, and the strength of the diversity and character of its immigrants. There is almost always, in just about every arena, a test of balance. Overbalance immigration, and you invite invasion. Underbalance immigration, and you weaken the human resources flowing to the country.

    But build a brick wall on the basis of religion? Or style of worship? Or ethnic appearance? That simply does not fit with the principles of this country. And I consider that, the concept of "equal justice under the law," to be a conservative principle.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    It's interesting that some of Islam's biggest defenders on this board are frequent critics of the "religious right" here in the U.S. Can someone show me the difference? Oh yes, there is one, the religious right rarely resorts to violence while for radical Islam, terrorism is standard procedure.
    Yes, but I think there's an explanation for this. Christianity for the most part is practiced in parts of the world where a free press, high amounts of literacy, diversity of opinion, tolerance of other religions/cultures and a fair system of justice are to some degree in place. In such an environment, its very difficult for radical sects of any type to push their way on the rest of the country without inciting outrage from a significant amount of the populace. The reason that radical Christianity has been resigned to a handful of nutcases is because mainstream Christianity has been exposed to opinions that run counter to fundamentalist viewpoints.

    These safeguards do not exist in much of the world where Islam is the prevalent religion. Without such, its very easy for a smaller sect of determined malcontents to use religion as a vehicle to help spread a creed of hatred amongst a populace, desperate for something to revere in, that feels it has very little to live for. When one is living in oppressive squalor, the thought of 72 virgins for blowing oneself up on a bus full of "infidels" doesn't seem like that bad of a trade off.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Serbians killed thousands of Muslims in Bosnia and other Balkan states. This was beyond terrorism; it was genocide. Similar genocides had happened in recent years in Africa, with hundreds of thousands killed.

    And this in countries with those characteristics listed (free press, high amounts of literacy, diversity of opinion, tolerance of other religions/cultures and a fair system of justice).

    And then there was WWII; not genocide, but with massive civilian casualties.

    My point is that other cultures (non-Muslim) have committed worse than the terrorism we see in parts of the Middle East and Southern Asia.

    Let's keep a little more perspective im these discussions.
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    Default Re: Islam, Pro & Con

    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiMuse
    Wow post #2 was one of the more offensive and ignorant things I ever have read. In fact it sounds very much to me like the attitude that the actual terrorist express.
    last time i checked retired hasn't beheaded anyone on tape.

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