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Thread: Lincoln

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    Default Lincoln

    "If by the mere force of numbers a majority should deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify revolution"--Lincoln

    Patriot Act, anyone?

    Oh, I'm sorry...I can't check out that book. Big Brother is watching.

    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin

    "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither"--Thomas Jefferson

    "When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing" --Eisenhower (you know, that WWII veteran who became a Republican president)


    Just some food for thought.
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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lincoln

    ^ Name one Constitutional right that is abridged by the Patriot Act, and if you can, provide empirical data to support your assertion.

    We'll wait.

    Here's a hint...you're not going to find anything.

    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Give me just a little bit...
    Grinding is for coffee and meat.
    "I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute."-Asurfel
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    Default Re: Lincoln

    The PATRIOT Act’s Assault on the Bill of Rights
    http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1184
    A Guide to The Patriot Act; Part 1
    http://slate.msn.com/id/2087984

    For starters; still working....

    On edit: I'm sorry, you wanted me to elaborate instead of posting just links; I'll do that next post.
    Grinding is for coffee and meat.
    "I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute."-Asurfel
    Those Who Hear Not The Music Think The Dancers Mad.
    “Belgian Trappist Organically Farmed Multiple Orgasm Inducing. Bed Shaking, Neighbors Complaining, Heirloom Radishes”

  5. #5
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Section 505 of the Patriot Act authorizes a virtual subpoena by Federal agencies to search people's effects without probable cause or judicial monitoring. In fact, the person doesn't even need to be suspected of participation. The agency is then not required to disclose the fact or extent of its search.

    Amendment IV: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Here ya go for the libraries:

    'Law enforcement officials have made at least 200 formal and informal inquiries to libraries for information on reading material and other internal matters since October 2001, according to a new study that adds grist to the growing debate in Congress over the government's counterterrorism powers."
    <snip>
    "The survey also found what library association officials described as a "chilling effect" caused by public concerns about the government's powers. Nearly 40 percent of the libraries responding reported that users had asked about changes in practices related to the Patriot Act, and about 5 percent said they had altered their professional activities over the issues; for instance, by reviewing the types of books they bought."

    So I have to be careful what I buy and check out.....

    Libraries Say Yes, Officials Do Quiz Them About Users
    By ERIC LICHTBLAU
    06/20/05 "New York Times"

    http://informationclearinghouse.info/article9207.htm

    and other rights:They get to spy on us at work,too.

    "Section upon section of the law imposes new obligations on businesses to produce the personal records of their customers, or to spy and snitch on their customers as a condition of operating. Million-dollar fines and criminal liability are punishment for noncompliance."

    With Patriot Act, companies forced to play informant on customers
    By ROBYN E. BLUMNER
    05/18/03: (St. Petersburg Times)
    http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle3436.htm
    Grinding is for coffee and meat.
    "I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute."-Asurfel
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    “Belgian Trappist Organically Farmed Multiple Orgasm Inducing. Bed Shaking, Neighbors Complaining, Heirloom Radishes”

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    Default Re: Lincoln

    From Defending America.org; a detailed explination of the Patriot Act:
    <snip>
    "When approved by senior Justice Department officials, law enforcement officers may seek a court order authorizing them to secretly capture conversations concerning any of a statutory list of offenses (predicate offenses)."
    <snip>
    "Least demanding and perhaps least intrusive of all is the procedure that governs court orders approving the government’s use of trap and trace devices and pen registers, a kind of secret “caller id,” which identify the source and destination of calls made to and from a particular telephone, 18 U.S.C. 3121-3127 (Chapter 206). The orders are available based on the government's certification, RATHER THAN A FINDING OF A COURT (emphasis mine-lildreamer), that use of the device is likely to produce information relevant to the investigation of a crime, any crime. The devices record no more than identity of the participants in a telephone conversation, but neither the orders nor the results they produce need ever be revealed to the participants."
    <snip>
    "In other procedural adjustments designed to facilitate criminal investigations, the Act .....authorizes “sneak and peek” search warrants;... eases government access to confidential information; ......allows the Attorney General to collect DNA samples from prisoners convicted of any federal crime of violence....

    http://www.defendingamerica.org/Arti...atriot-act.htm

    (BTW: here is who Defending America is:"Defending America is a site created to help the average citizen understand the important and diverse issues regarding national security in our changing world and the complicated and often confusing jargon used in discussing those issues. There is never, and never will be, any charge for the information we provide. While our site is maintained on a for-profit basis, we make money only from our advertisers, if and when a visitor chooses to click on their ads.
    Our staff includes political scientists, writers, researchers, and web developers with a commitment to serving our visitors with the most accurate, easy-to-understand information we are able to assemble."--in other words, non-partisan)
    Grinding is for coffee and meat.
    "I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute."-Asurfel
    Those Who Hear Not The Music Think The Dancers Mad.
    “Belgian Trappist Organically Farmed Multiple Orgasm Inducing. Bed Shaking, Neighbors Complaining, Heirloom Radishes”

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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Thanks Jay; was gonna put that at the end anyway.
    Grinding is for coffee and meat.
    "I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute."-Asurfel
    Those Who Hear Not The Music Think The Dancers Mad.
    “Belgian Trappist Organically Farmed Multiple Orgasm Inducing. Bed Shaking, Neighbors Complaining, Heirloom Radishes”

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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Not a very good start. These articles are typical for Patriot Act hysteria--long on rhetoric, very short on actual fact and data. Let's summarize:

    The Independent article focuses on the "violation" of immigrant rights and of the use of FISA courts. The Slate article talks about the library clauses as it pertains, again, to FISA. Both of these are straw men arguments, considering their useful parameters, established law and the historic involvement of the FISA court.

    Section 505 of the Patriot Act authorizes a virtual subpoena by Federal agencies to search people's effects without probable cause or judicial monitoring
    It's under appeal, so the jury is still out on this provision, so to speak.

    There is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about the FISA court, nor the expansion of its purview; if the secret court issues warrants for search in a national security investigaton, the FBI can carry out the search and seizure. This is not only established law, but actually protects our current system of civil rights protections. The judiciary is never, never going to rescind their review perogative that they have over government investigations (see aforemention Section 505 debate); it would be counterproductive and strip them of their own power. No law will ever pass the SCOTUS that seeks to remove any and all manner of judicial review from the process.

    The ACLU forwarded 12,000+ complaints about the Patriot Act to their patron saint, Senator Diane Feinstein of California, who incidentally sits on the SSIC. Her staff reviewed all 12,000+ complaints and supposed violations of civil rights. Guess how many Constitutional violations she and her staff found?

    Zero. Not one. And this is from arguably the most liberal senator west of the Mississippi. And she's no friend of the GWB administration, either.

    The Patriot Act is often vilified, but almost never read, since it's just easier to panic. I was in grad school last year where there was a rally against the Patriot Act. There were two speakers on the topic, one a professor of communications, the other a professor of international relations and former intelligence officer. After the Colombian neo-Marxist student that started the rally finished speaking, he turned over the opening to the communications professor, who spoke with dread and foreboding about "warrantless" searches and how anyone can be a target of the government's spy machine.

    After much clapping, hooting and hollering subsided, the IR/intelligence professor quietly stood up and asked the crowd one simple question: How many of you have actually read the Patriot Act? Two people raised their hands, including the professor.

    At this point, the professor pointed out the history of not only FISA, but of judicial review and how it works in cases of national security. Basically, if the FBI establishes the national security imperative with sufficient cause to convince the FISA panel of judges, FISA says it's OK to wiretap, search or surveil. And there's no 4th, 5th or 14th Amendment violations in that process, since the court orders eventually become public record. FISA is an old law. It's had myriad opportunities for both Republican and Democratic governments to change it, not to mention the influence of the SCOTUS. And yet it remains law because it is in fact, Constitutional.

    Perhaps the most important aspects of the Patriot Act that needed to be included and renewed are the expansion of electronic surveillance portions; previously, there was no convenient way for the FBI to tap email, cellular or internet-based communications. That's a big change, and a positive one, if we're at all interested in catching global organized criminals and terrorists.

    For all the heat and smoke about the Patriot Act, there's remarkably little fire.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  10. #10
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Lincoln

    I have not read the Patriot Act. . It's approximately 160 sections, and it is not exactly written in page-turning style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    It's under appeal, so the jury is still out on this provision, so to speak
    Then I would argue there's substance to the argument, regardless of how many students at meetings you've attended have read it.

    I'm not being hysterical. Long ago, Ted Kennedy was advocating a national database to make criminal tracking more readily available. Conservatives cringed and called it a step down the slippery road to Big Brother and the loss of individual rights. Indeed, we have been sliding down steadily, to the point where a private investigator with a subscription to databases can just about tell you what color socks you're wearing today, if he wanted. I don't get hysterical about it - it's just the way it is. But the more the government wants to get into my fellow citizens' shorts, out of convenience to the government, the more uneasy I become.

    There is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about the FISA court, nor the expansion of its purview; if the secret court issues warrants for search in a national security investigaton, the FBI can carry out the search and seizure. This is not only established law, but actually protects our current system of civil rights protections.
    A secret court, (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court), by broad powes that allow it to rummage through the virtual underwear drawers of anyone, protects our current system - by being above it? Beyond it? Violative of it?

    Perhaps the most important aspects of the Patriot Act that needed to be included and renewed are the expansion of electronic surveillance portions; previously, there was no convenient (emphasis added) way for the FBI to tap email, cellular or internet-based communications. That's a big change, and a positive one, if we're at all interested in catching global organized criminals and terrorists.
    More rights given up for security. We all see a different optimal balance. I frankly don't want to make it convenient for the government to peer into the private communications of anyone they want to. From Hoover to Nixon to Clinton, that is a convenience that is all too easily abused.

    For all the heat and smoke about the Patriot Act, there's remarkably little fire.
    I don't mean this to sound as smug as it does. My little paragraph sure generated a hearty response (and I always appreciate your writing, whether I agree or not). Must've been a spark in there somewhere.

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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Lincoln was a proto-Nazi and has a nice front row seat in hell right now.

    The Constitution was the Patriot Act of its day. I'd be happy if both dissappeared.
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    Default Re: Lincoln

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    Lincoln was a proto-Nazi and has a nice front row seat in hell right now.

    The Constitution was the Patriot Act of its day. I'd be happy if both dissappeared.
    Libritarian, I presume? Just wondering, no slam intended....
    Grinding is for coffee and meat.
    "I want to entertain people who wish to be entertained, not be an expensive but poor substitute for someone who can't find themselves a prostitute."-Asurfel
    Those Who Hear Not The Music Think The Dancers Mad.
    “Belgian Trappist Organically Farmed Multiple Orgasm Inducing. Bed Shaking, Neighbors Complaining, Heirloom Radishes”

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