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Thread: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

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    Default "We've had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    The full quote is "We've had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...under Vicente W. Bush!" Just something I heard on the radio this morning. I only caught the very end of the topic, as it related to a new study of L.A.-area African-Americans dealing with "crappy schools" and crime. The host indicated there was no mention of how illegal immigration impacts African-Americans in this study, implying it was something that might have been purposely omitted.

    The point was made that in Los Angeles, if subsidized housing is being occupied by illegal immigrants, then it is unavailable for the poor (both African-American and otherwise) and also those homeless who would actually like to have shelter(i.e., anyone who does hold U.S. citizenship). Because in Los Angeles, there is "Special Order 40," which prohibits the police from asking people who have committed a crime (and I can accept making a major distinction between jaywalking and, say, theft here) if they are here legally. Therefore, the politicians here are also making their major contribution to exacerbating this problem. Provided the same politicians will solve the problems of providing sufficient housing, jobs, schools from which people actually graduate, etc., for everyone, citizen, legal immigrant, and illegal immigrant alike, then I would have no problem with accepting their behavior...but they don't! The same point was made re: entry-level jobs. So what of, then, employment for the poor who were born here, and those people who immigrated here legally, including those who immigrated here from Mexico, Central American and South America with every "i" dotted and "t" crossed.

    Yet another point made was that small businesses who might provide jobs to the poor in the area can't compete with those businesses who do hire illegal immigrants, and therefore must start hiring illegal immigrants themselves. This, in order for their businesses to survive. The meat packing and drywall-installation industries were given as examples of industries which provided fairly well-paying jobs in the past, but do not now due to the influx of much less expensive labor available from illegal immigration.

    I'm perfectly willing to leave the border situation as it is now, provided that any CEO, company owner, or president of a company is sent to prison for every count of hiring an illegal alien carrying a specified amount of prison time. This would at least partially solve illegal immigration by removing one of the biggest underlying reasons. And yes, I will either pay $15.00 for one basket of strawberries or do without, if necessary.


    PhaedrusZ

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    Scapegoating. Most illegal immigrant jobs are held by illegal immigrants because nobody else wants them. Meat packing is a perfect example of an industry that uses a great deal of immigrant labour, not specifically to save money, but because they are the only ones who will accept the working conditions. It's not because of illegal aliens. They are the result. Shelter - on this one I have no idea. But it could be an indication that more affordable housing is needed.
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    Phaed,
    "Because in Los Angeles, there is "Special Order 40," which prohibits the police from asking people who have committed a crime (and I can accept making a major distinction between jaywalking and, say, theft here) if they are here legally. "

    To do so risks the wrath of the International Court of Justice which ruled the US authorities have to provide access to consular officials to illegals who are arrested.

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    I say we go back to our policy of open immigration, circa pre-1920s

    Keep the illegals, send away the border patrol and ins
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    I dont think the illegal labor pool is any different then it was 15 yrs ago - I just think people are taking more notice - even though most Americans dont want the jobs these people are doing or want way too much money for the job they are doing( drywall ) ! I dont have a problem with anyone who is trying to support their family I would do the same if I was in their position wouldnt you ? And yes I know it isnt legal " its survival " for them .Now on the other hand the medical care is getting out of hand by the same people here - if they work here they can pay their bills here as well ..

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Scapegoating. Most illegal immigrant jobs are held by illegal immigrants because nobody else wants them...
    From the following link, an excerpt from Eric Schlosser's, "Fast Food Nation"

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/He...chine_FFN.html

    "...The industrialization of cattle-raising and meatpacking over the past two decades has completely altered how beef is produced-and the towns that produce it. Responding to the demands of the fast food and supermarket chains, the meatpacking giants have cut costs by cutting wages. They have turned one of the nation's best-paying manufacturing jobs into one of the lowest-paying, created a migrant industrial workforce of poor immigrants, tolerated high injury rates, and spawned rural ghettos in the American heartland. Crime, poverty, drug abuse, and homelessness have lately taken root in towns where you'd least expect to find them..."

    Provided the meat packing plants are billed for the social problems they cause by hiring illegal aliens, then I would have much less of a problem accepting illegal immigration. Also please see my reply to CuriousJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    I say we go back to our policy of open immigration, circa pre-1920s

    Keep the illegals, send away the border patrol and ins
    And if this is done, you do have some recommended method of control over disease transmission vectors?

    Quote Originally Posted by montythegeek
    ...To do so risks the wrath of the International Court of Justice which ruled the US authorities have to provide access to consular officials to illegals who are arrested.
    Actually, I'd have no problem at all with this provided the ICJ is willing to provide adequate financial compensation (from its own funding, of course) to anyone in the U.S., including illegal aliens, who see one of their family members murdered by illegal aliens. Nothing is adequate compensation for this, but 25-50 mil In U.S. dollars to any family in this situation might be a good start.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousJ
    ...I dont have a problem with anyone who is trying to support their family I would do the same if I was in their position wouldnt you ? And yes I know it isnt legal " its survival " for them...
    I suppose I would, if I were in their shoes. However, I will withdraw my criticism in this case provided the Congress passes legislation that I, and every other natural-born or naturalized U.S. citizen can also pick and choose which laws s/he is going to abide by...while the Congess (in addition to the corporations that own the Congress) kindly "look the other way."


    PhaedrusZ


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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t
    I say we go back to our policy of open immigration, circa pre-1920s

    Keep the illegals, send away the border patrol and ins
    Maybe I'm just too stupid to be able to figure this out. But why is it that a jobless woman from Tijuana has an easier time than a surgeon from Europe? They make Europeans (and other non-latin areas) jump through so many hoops in order to come hear but by God if you can make swim across the Rio Grande or float on over in a 62 Chevy you're welcome to stay. Not just stay but be welcome to any and all benefits you can soak in. Taxes? Don't worry about it, you're gonna be paid in cash so Uncle Sam won't even know you're making any money.

    Now I understand that there are no Americans that would ever want to work in a minumum wage job to make ends meet. I'm sure that if you were to walk the slums of the midwest and east coast you couldn't possibly find someone willing to pack meat or wait tables. Nope. You could never find a high school or college student willing to work those kind of jobs and actually be an American citizen.

    I see that recently there was talk of Canada stopping selling prescription drugs to non-Canadians (mainly Americans, understandably so). What do you think would be the reaction if the US did the same thing with their services?

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...

    Now I understand that there are no Americans that would ever want to work in a minumum wage job to make ends meet. I'm sure that if you were to walk the slums of the midwest and east coast you couldn't possibly find someone willing to pack meat or wait tables. Nope. You could never find a high school or college student willing to work those kind of jobs and actually be an American citizen.
    In New York at least, you've got THAT right. Nobody in their right mind is going to take a job that pays $10 per hour in exchange for 'serious' work, while at the same time losing eligibility for welfare/medicaid/subsidized rent/subsidized utilities benefits which have a cash value that exceeds the $10 an hour pay rate for the job. This is New York's version of a de-facto 'living wage'. Unreported cash income from illegal employment of course does not count against eligibility for benefits.

    Generous social services is also a reason that a large number of illegal immigrants crossing the US border into Arizona keep on going to California, and the reason that a large number of illegal immigrants on the east coast gravitate to New York.

    I see that recently there was talk of Canada stopping selling prescription drugs to non-Canadians (mainly Americans, understandably so). What do you think would be the reaction if the US did the same thing with their services?
    Actually, the roots of this Canadian decision go much deeper than the surface. For a fact, the low retail price of Canadian prescription drugs are due to both bulk purchases (large but finite quantites) of drugs from American and European drug companies at discounted prices, plus embedded gov't subsidies in the drug distribution chain. The Canadians figured out that if they sell off all of the finite quantities of bulk purchased drugs, that Canadians will either not have additional supply of those drugs available or will be forced to pay market prices to obtain additional supply. The Canadian Gov't figured out that cross-border sales of Canadian drugs also create embedded gov't subsidy costs (i.e. Canadian taxpayers indirectly financing discounted drugs being sold to Americans). Personally I thought that this was a fair trade off re American drug customers financing new drug research which benefits Canadians, but I guess the Canadian gov't budget people didn't feel the same way.

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    The facts are :
    The taxpayers end up footing the bills for these illegals in terms of health care and eductional cost and all other social services which they need when they arrive here. THis means we are indirectly subsidizing a number of large corporate businesses not the least of which is the Western agricultural business sector. Many other illegals work for restaurants and do domestic work for mainly wealthy Americans.

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...

    Jenny is right, many of the jobs held by illegals, Americans just would not do for any amount of money. I don't know that GWB's stewardship of our borders is any worse than any other president. What a lot of people in other states don't realize is the extent to which the border state's economies depend on this labor force. Bush was governor of Texas, he understands that. Sadly, I fear the only way this will ever change is if some terrorist attack occured here and it was proved that the terrorists entered the country illegally across the Mexican-U.S. border.
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...

    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    Jenny is right, many of the jobs held by illegals, Americans just would not do for any amount of money. I don't know that GWB's stewardship of our borders is any worse than any other president. What a lot of people in other states don't realize is the extent to which the border state's economies depend on this labor force. Bush was governor of Texas, he understands that. Sadly, I fear the only way this will ever change is if some terrorist attack occured here and it was proved that the terrorists entered the country illegally across the Mexican-U.S. border.
    Americans "won't" do it, or simply "can't" do it - as in can't afford to work for that amount of money as it won't pay the rent, food, and put clothes on the backs of their kids.

    The illegals come here, do some camping in a house or work barracks, get paid in US dollars and return to central/south america "rich." Mexico's second largest import is American dollars from the illegals. Is it any wonder why they make pamphlets on how to cross the border?

    I agree the only time the border will be tightened up is when it is proven that a terrorist crossed it. While the government seems to be bla-zae about it - the citizens are becoming less so as the Minutemen show. Cities are not to happy about it either as they have the direct costs of illegal immigration.

    If the feds had to pay the direct costs of illegal immigration, I bet there would be a very different attitude about it.

    I was in California during the black outs - and the lights really did go out for parts of the day - yea, I have real confidence in the ideals and abilities of California.

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    From the following link, an excerpt from Eric Schlosser's, "Fast Food Nation"
    Interestingly enough, I have read Fast Food Nation in its entirety, and I am pretty sure that Schlosser would agree that illegal, immigrant labour is the result of the of the wage drops and working conditions and not the cause. And packing meat is a very dangerous and unpleasant job for very low pay. I don't think you'd find a lot of college students giving up their table waiting jobs to do it.

    The Canadians figured out that if they sell off all of the finite quantities of bulk purchased drugs, that Canadians will either not have additional supply of those drugs available or will be forced to pay market prices to obtain additional supply. The Canadian Gov't figured out that cross-border sales of Canadian drugs also create embedded gov't subsidy costs (i.e. Canadian taxpayers indirectly financing discounted drugs being sold to Americans).
    I'm sure that you, as a NY person, must be aware that the pressure on the Canadian Government to SOMEHOW stop pharmacies from selling drugs to Americans comes directly from the American government and pharmaceuticals. It had nothing to do with Canadian subsidies and everything to do with American business losing money.
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousJ
    I dont think the illegal labor pool is any different then it was 15 yrs ago - I just think people are taking more notice
    I've taken notice (and this is not meant to offend anyone, but I will explain)- my mother (who lives WAY out in the country, mind you...and this is "deep in the heart of Texas") is situated right next to "Baja Mexico"! My mom has 5 acres of land, they've got more than that. It started with two houses, then four, then six, add a few trailers, then a bunch of junked cars, maybe another house, and it ended when my step-dad busted them for illegally hooking up their water pipes (we knew the pressure in our area had gone down a bunch). Do they care? Obviously not. Does anyone else? Nope, don't guess so. They are a scary looking bunch, and they even shot my cat! (Poor little Kato) They do all the concrete type work (which I've heard is mediocre at best), but they all seem to be really happy with the litte village they've constructed- maybe that's why my mom decided to sell the house!

    On a side note: I am going to make it VERY clear that I'm not cutting down Mexican people. My guy's half-brother is part Mexican, and I am VERY close with that part of the family. (There is an obvious difference between his family and these neighbors, however.) I am simply giving an observation, so I don't want to end up in any heated conversations because somebody takes somethig wrong!

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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Americans "won't" do it, or simply "can't" do it - as in can't afford to work for that amount of money as it won't pay the rent, food, and put clothes on the backs of their kids.
    Won't. Jenny is right, there is some work Americans just will not do.

    The illegals come here, do some camping in a house or work barracks, get paid in US dollars and return to central/south america "rich." Mexico's second largest import is American dollars from the illegals. Is it any wonder why they make pamphlets on how to cross the border?
    Actually, because it is becoming more difficult to cross the border, many Mexicans are making fewer and fewer trips back.

    I agree the only time the border will be tightened up is when it is proven that a terrorist crossed it. While the government seems to be bla-zae about it - the citizens are becoming less so as the Minutemen show. Cities are not to happy about it either as they have the direct costs of illegal immigration.
    And are we prepared for the border to be tightened for Americans as well? Many Americans that live near the border like to go across into Mexico and shop. The dollar goes a lot further, you escape some taxes, especially on cigarettes and such. And what about NAFTA? By treaty, isn't the border supposed to be pretty open?

    If the feds had to pay the direct costs of illegal immigration, I bet there would be a very different attitude about it.
    But the federal government never will. Some years ago, the border states sued the U.S. government asking them to pay for the education and health care costs of illegals. The states' argument was that it was the federal government's responsibility to secure our borders. If they failed to do that, they should pay the resulting costs. The Supreme Court said no, the state's taxpayers had to pick up the tab.
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Cities are not to happy about it either as they have the direct costs of illegal immigration.
    Yes....taxpayers in effect subsidizing the corporations who hire these illegals through our taxes and government deficits. All so A) the corp can make a larger profit and B) the price at the store goes down 1/19th cent (maybe)

    Just pay people what itcosts to live, charge what it costs to stay in business, and let THE TRULY FREE MARKET resolve itself.

    Provide a safety net for those who CAN't (NOT JUST WON't) work. Provide childcare if needed, and training as well as a GOVERNMENT JOB for those who cant find honest work. FDR made it happen...and giving a check for a day of brushing the streets is a heck of alot better than giving a welfare check.

    Require companies outsourcing US work to other countries treat their facilities, workers, etc respectfully...and not simply abuse the other nations' lack of development or laws.

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    Featured Member discretedancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Weve had absolutely the worst stewardship of our borders under George W. Bush..."

    Oh, as for stewardship...why should we expect GW to do any better here than he has in environmental stewardship, protection of our higher-paying job opportunities, benefits and respect for our armed service and other employees (cutting VA benefits in a war has gotta be the lowest) not to mention our international respect/honor/perception as a partner and not a bullly

    Simply put: it's more of the disgusting same folks!

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