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Thread: Baptism Refusal

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    Default Baptism Refusal

    Church to restrict baptism of gay couples' children
    'We can't accept two fathers or two mothers as parents,' cardinal tells senators

    Repulsive Story of Assholes Here...
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by MojoJojo
    very odd,this comes from Canada.Isnt gay marriage legal up there??

    As for the catholic church being assholes,again,very odd imo.

    Its not like they are changing the rules or anything,the view from the pope-on-a-rope and the bible hasnt really changed in many many years.

    Just for shits and giggles,can you tell me if the islamic or hindu faiths openly except homosexuals into thier ranks??

    Im just asking because its my belief that these three religions comprise most of the worlds population.
    This would make the statement"people in general,are assholes" to be true,and not just the catholics.

    Maybe just maybe,its the homosexuals who are being assholes, and not most of the worlds population??

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM

    As for the catholic church being assholes,again,very odd imo.

    Just for shits and giggles,can you tell me if the islamic or hindu faiths openly except homosexuals into thier ranks??

    This would make the statement"people in general,are assholes" to be true,and not just the catholics.

    Maybe just maybe,its the homosexuals who are being assholes, and not most of the worlds population??
    Oh, I'm not saying that the Catholics, in particular, are assholes. I'm saying the individuals who made this decision are the assholes. It has nothing to do with them specifically being Catholic. Hell, my wife is Catholic, and I completely respect (most of) her views and attitudes.
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    I am not sure why the child's soul should be banned from baptism for the sins of the parents....

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    I am not sure why the child's soul should be banned from baptism for the sins of the parents....
    I dunno,when children die,dont they sit at the side of god until the parents get there??
    I thought in all three religions,a childs soul is "saved" or somehow exempted from sin???Isnt this the same in all three religions i listed??

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by MojoJojo
    Oh, I'm not saying that the Catholics, in particular, are assholes. I'm saying the individuals who made this decision are the assholes. It has nothing to do with them specifically being Catholic. Hell, my wife is Catholic, and I completely respect (most of) her views and attitudes.
    Ok so if the catholic,or islamic,or hindu views ,beliefs,and attitudes, are ANTI homosexual,the decision has already been made,long before any of us got to the show,all the "assholes"are doing is following thier religions beliefs and following the word of whatever church they belong to.

    Why would they want to put a child into a religion that will teach them to kill or hate thier parents(actually 1 "parent"at best possible outcome)?

    Maybe just maybe,its the gay parents being assholes and just wanting to further an agenda,and involving a kid usually gets media coverage and great propaganda bennies.

    Its the parents being assholes and using the kid imo,none of the three churches have hidden thier rule books,you can pick up a copy of either at any local bookstore.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Unfortunately (or not, depending on your position) this does fall under a freedom of religion issue. The state cannot force an established, legititmate religion to recognize same sex couples (which is specifically recognized in the legislation. The state cannot refuse to recognize same sex couple/parents because the state is bound by anti-discrimination laws and ethics. Churches aren't.) Personally, I think their logic is a little skewed, but I also see that they have to seize upon what power they still have - and this is it. Although I don't see how this is going to help the falling numbers of practicing Catholics in North America - unless they are simply hoping to galvinize the gay-bigots into church. Fortunately there are many religious (even Catholic) clergy who are interested and active in lobbying the church for fair treatment of its gay members.

    And if children were exempt from sin they wouldn't need to be baptized in the first place. Or christened. Or whatever.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    God/dess Rhiannon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Completely ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    In Catholicism Baptism removes the "stain" of original sin. Even a child cannot enter heaven (or purgatory) unless they have been baptised since god cannot abide sin (even original sin).

    It's lame.

    But, yeah, the Church is effectively saying that because the kid's parents are in a sinful dealiebob, the kid doesn't get to have salvation. I don't believe any of this in the slightest bit, but for the church of all people to deny baptism to an innocent when they believe in their hearts of hearts that if they do not then that child will not get to enter heaven is the height of assholistic behavior.

    And, M&M, the church IS changing it's rules here. Baptism is one of the sacrements, you can spout "homosexual agenda" untill you head falls off, but that's still the bottom line. They are denying an innocent the first of the sacrements, and by doing so they believe that should this innocent die it will not enter heaven. That's changing the rules.

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    Banned BigGreenMnM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Unfortunately (or not, depending on your position) this does fall under a freedom of religion issue.
    And thank whatever god you pray to for it!!!!
    Sorry,i dont want the government to tell me what i can or can not belive in.

    The state cannot force an established, legititmate religion to recognize same sex couples (which is specifically recognized in the legislation. The state cannot refuse to recognize same sex couple/parents because the state is bound by anti-discrimination laws and ethics. Churches aren't.) Personally, I think their logic is a little skewed,
    again,thank whatever god,for the same reasons listed above.

    I see canada facing alot of the issues regarding homosexual couples and marriage that the USA did over the last 10 years.
    America voted,did Canada??

    Can someone tell me what the major religion of Canada is??
    Im asking because imo,catholics rule in America,so it makes sense to me that alot of its faiths beliefs are mirrored in our laws and rules.

    Its just my opinion,but I think canada jumped on the band wagon way to soon in an attempt to grab all the gay marriage tourist industry before mexico did.
    I think Canada is in for alot of problems over this in the future.

    "I could care less who you fuck,I could care less if you live next door to me,I could care less if our kids play together,but for kripes sake,dont try to change my religion or my definition of marriage just to include your beliefs".

    Thats what i heard from america,im sure it will soon be the same further north.

    but I also see that they have to seize upon what power they still have - and this is it. Although I don't see how this is going to help the falling numbers of practicing Catholics in North America - unless they are simply hoping to galvinize the gay-bigots into church.
    the power they still have??
    There is nothing more powerfull then religion,its even bigger then America.

    And if its "falling numbers",what church are they going to??

    Fortunately there are many religious (even Catholic) clergy who are interested and active in lobbying the church for fair treatment of its gay members.
    Are you suggesting this is where they are all going??
    Even most??
    And if children were exempt from sin they wouldn't need to be baptized in the first place. Or christened. Or whatever.
    lol
    Nobody said it made any sense!!!!!!lolol
    When all three religions were formed,i bet they didnt think the peasents would ever grow smart enough to question the loopholes.
    Im not 100% sure,but I think all three religions have a safety net to keep the babies and children from falling thru a loophole,I know the bible has a few quotes on it,I would bet the quran does also,wish someone knew the hindu take on it,might be interesting.

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    Banned Madcap's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I dunno,when children die,dont they sit at the side of god until the parents get there??
    I thought in all three religions,a childs soul is "saved" or somehow exempted from sin???Isnt this the same in all three religions i listed??
    Only in protestantism. Protestants get baptised as adults because of this belief, they don't have to as children because they don't have original sin until a certain age (I forget what the age is called, though).

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap
    In Catholicism Baptism removes the "stain" of original sin. Even a child cannot enter heaven (or purgatory) unless they have been baptised since god cannot abide sin (even original sin).

    It's lame.
    You might be right,but i dont think so.
    The bible has a rubber stamp for babies who die before birth,or during birth.
    It also has a "clause"that the pro choice side uses when explaining where aborted babies go.
    Correct???
    But, yeah, the Church is effectively saying that because the kid's parents are in a sinful dealiebob, the kid doesn't get to have salvation.
    Ok maybe i should read the piece again,but i dont think they are stopping the child from getting his head wet,I think the issue is how many manparents are listed on the churches paperwork.
    correct??
    I don't believe any of this in the slightest bit, but for the church of all people to deny baptism to an innocent when they believe in their hearts of hearts that if they do not then that child will not get to enter heaven is the height of assholistic behavior.
    This is why children make such good pawns in this issue,its easy to overlook actual facts,and turn this into an emotional issue instead.
    Did I read the OP wrong??
    They church isnt denying anything but "my two dads"names on the lil piece of paper they give ya after ya get dunked.
    One "dad"can walk in tomorrow and get the kid baptized.
    Correct??
    And, M&M, the church IS changing it's rules here.
    Hey,much props to the canuks!!!
    You broke ranks with the marriage issue and pretty much set the bar on this continent,and this side of the world.
    America voted and decided.
    If it works for the best up there,it can only be good for the issue down here.
    Correct??
    As for Canada changing the church and its rules,fat fuckin chance imo.
    The rules are made in Rome,just like in Islam they are made in mecca.
    No king,no president,no elected official will ever change that.
    Your country was founded on religion just like mine was.
    Baptism is one of the sacrements, you can spout "homosexual agenda" untill you head falls off, but that's still the bottom line. They are denying an innocent the first of the sacrements, and by doing so they believe that should this innocent die it will not enter heaven. That's changing the rules.
    I dunno,again,maybe im reading this wrong,or im able to see thru the "brians song"tears.
    It looks to me like the church is willing to do the baptism.
    It looks to me like the homosexual couple is using the kid as a pawn and trying to change the rules as opposed to going along with the rules of the church and getting the kid baptized.

    If the enternal damnation of the child was really the got dammed issue,ONE fuckin gay dad would have walked the brat in,gotten the baptism,and THEN went to the papers.

    But then,the kid would have been saved,and it would not make for very good emotional homosexual propaganda reading.

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap
    Only in protestantism. Protestants get baptised as adults because of this belief, they don't have to as children because they don't have original sin until a certain age (I forget what the age is called, though).
    kewl,i didnt know that.

    But it does make me wonder...

    If a gay married man in canada went to the protestant church,could they get baptised??
    Im afraid i dont know the protestant view on homosexuality??
    Dont they use the same rule book at the catholics??

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Wow I'm relieved now because I wont be making the trip to heaven or hell !The world really needs to adjust to the times if not this will just keep repeating itself over and over as it has done . Maybe God should start useing waivers ,variances lol..

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    No Canada didn't vote.
    then you cant say this.
    Its just your opinion.
    That would be stupid because A) it has been shown time and time again that in a straight referendum Canadian are overwhelmingly in favour of or indifferent to gay marriage. It is a small minority against it
    and B) That doesn't matter at all. It is a human rights issue, specifically outlined by the Supreme Court and in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Voting on it is equivalent to holding referenda on the rights of women or black people to own property. You don't vote on human rights. That is why they are called human rights.
    sorry,its not a human rights issue,its a religion issue,please stick to the topic at hand.
    There are religions that blacks are not invited to,there are religions where gays are not on the guest list,and im sure there are religions where females are less then men in written worth.
    If you dont agree,go to a different church that agrees closer to what you do.
    Easy.
    Gay being right or wrong,or a human condition isnt at issue and when added to this discussion is only fodder for usless flames,forcing a religion to except it against its beliefs is wrong imo.
    When the canuks legalized gay marriage,they opened the door to legal propaganda lawsuits against any and every church that doesnt openly and overtly except homosexual marriage.
    lol this wont be the last story we hear!!!!
    No, that doesn't make sense. The U.S.A. is meant to be a secular country - separation of church and state, etc. That is meant to go for state as well as the church. Freedom of religion - you can't have that while representing Roman Catholic interests.
    Faith is always included on any elected officials platform,some just more then others.
    Both countries are pretty much the same on that wouldnt you agree??

    Would you vote for someone who prayed to Saten??

    Has a satanic worshiper ever held high office before in either country??
    Okay, you can't be serious? You seriously think that this is a Tourist issue?
    Hell yea i do.
    Canadians just aren't backwards, religious hicks. Nothing to do with tourism.
    lolololololol
    Then explain the story originating from up there??
    You da same same as meeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
    Only now,you guys gotta pay for all the legal fees to fight this all out in court.
    We are pretty much done with the issue here and will just sit back and see how it all goes.
    Fuckin american lazyness
    " This is also stupid. Your PERSONAL definition of marriage, as it applies to you and your spouse? Nobody (including Canadians) gives a fuck. The state discriminating against gay couples? That is what we care about.
    Ok,then protest when that issue comes up.

    This aint it.

    This is about the CHURCH,NOT the state.
    Climb down from the homosexual propaganda soapbox and read the OP about the CHURCH,not the STATE.
    or maybe im the one who should because it seems we are talking about two different topics.

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    Senior Member gothicgoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Im pagan but I grew up catholic...this is crazy.... I cant believe that they would deny children. Thats kinda fucked up.

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicgoddess
    Im pagan but I grew up catholic...this is crazy.... I cant believe that they would deny children. Thats kinda fucked up.
    Read the story again,they are not denying the child a catholic baptism.
    Its all about the paperwork,not the actual baptism.
    The kid can be baptized now,its the two dads who are stopping it.

    Just because Spain or Canada,or even if the USA did it,just because its legal where you live,dont think Islamics,Hindu's,or catholics are going to rewrite thier belief systems just because one country thinks homosexual marriage is ok.
    Religion is bigger then any country,specially the ones we are talking about.


    If you remove the homosexual propaganda hype,you will see that the child is being denied nothing,specially not the baptism.

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    Senior Member TnT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Well at least there are some churches that maintain the love thy neighbor thing that Jesus is supposed to have been so famous for....

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    kewl,i didnt know that.

    But it does make me wonder...

    If a gay married man in canada went to the protestant church,could they get baptised??
    Im afraid i dont know the protestant view on homosexuality??
    See, that's where me and you part ways. You are talking about Homosexuality and i'm talking about the simple fact that a child was refused the first of the (and one of the most sacred) Sacrements.

    The issue of homosexuality has to do with the daddies, and nothing to do with the baby in question. That's one of my problems with this whole thing. If they have a problem with gays, fine, i think it's retarded to have that problem but that's just me. They damned well shouldn't refuse a baby the first Sacrement.

    Catholicism is different from protestantism, M&M. For instance in the protestant versions of the bible there are verses that say "call no man father" except for god (paraphrasing), not so oin the catholic versions. And it is only the catholic versions we can speak of here, since it wasn't pentecostals that refused baptism (Pents don't baptise childred anyway, so that's all moot, but you get my point).

    If you stop falling for the "it's a couple homo's" sensationalistic trap you might see things my way.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Dont they use the same rule book at the catholics??
    You did not just ask that.

    No, protestants do not follow the same rulebook. The catholics have the Catholic version of the bible and the protestants have the King James Version, the New Iinternational Version, the Lutheran, and several others. You can say it's the same book, but it's not. There are entire books of the bible that are in the Catholic version that are nowhere to be seen in the others (Like the book of Judith) and vice versa (Revelation isn't even a whisper in the Catholic version).

    My whole family is catholic.

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by TnT
    Well at least there are some churches that maintain the love thy neighbor thing that Jesus is supposed to have been so famous for....
    Exactly!!!!

    The question is,do they have branch offices in Canada,and why isnt the two dads try to baptize the child in question into one of those churches???

    I think its propaganda and serving to further the parents agenda rather then the salvation of the child.

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    You might be right,but i dont think so.
    The bible has a rubber stamp for babies who die before birth,or during birth.
    It also has a "clause"that the pro choice side uses when explaining where aborted babies go.
    Correct???
    Protestant religions do. It's called the "Age of Accounting" or something like that. Once you get old enough to understand right from wrong you recieve original sin (because of the whole fucking apple thing). In Catholicism it's different, you have original sin the second you are born, that's why catholic babies are baptised right away.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Ok maybe i should read the piece again,but i dont think they are stopping the child from getting his head wet,I think the issue is how many manparents are listed on the churches paperwork.
    correct??
    Realize that anything these guys do will end up against a stone wall. If it's a gay rights issue these two are idiots for the target they chose. However, they could baptise the child and worry about the paperwork later. Something like that should be important enough to a priest to do it and fuck with the dotted line a bit later. Then the church can deal with it. And you know what they'll do, right? The theological equivalent of "Talk to the hand..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    This is why children make such good pawns in this issue,its easy to overlook actual facts,and turn this into an emotional issue instead.
    Did I read the OP wrong??
    They church isnt denying anything but "my two dads"names on the lil piece of paper they give ya after ya get dunked.
    One "dad"can walk in tomorrow and get the kid baptized.
    Correct??
    That depends on the details of the case, which i hesitate to actually trust from some article. Stuff like that is easy for one side to say, different often in practise. As we well know from recent events in the church, some priests are different than others (often a LOT different) and what they say publically might not be what they say to your face (I know that part for a fact from having attended Catholic school).


    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    Hey,much props to the canuks!!!
    You broke ranks with the marriage issue and pretty much set the bar on this continent,and this side of the world.
    America voted and decided.
    Um, i'm a breadbasted midwestern American. I was talking about the Catholic church changing catholic law about the sacrements. Something like that is VERY important, and must be done as soon as possible with all haste (does that sentence make sense or did i say the same thing twice? Oh well, i meant to do that for, uh, emphesis... yeah, that's it). Dotted lines can wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    If it works for the best up there,it can only be good for the issue down here.
    Correct??
    As for Canada changing the church and its rules,fat fuckin chance imo.
    The rules are made in Rome,just like in Islam they are made in mecca.
    No king,no president,no elected official will ever change that.
    Your country was founded on religion just like mine was.
    What country is that (I hope i'm not responding to something meant for Jenny, dammit i wish i could see the snippets you replied to)?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    I dunno,again,maybe im reading this wrong,or im able to see thru the "brians song"tears.
    Good one, i bow to your superior awesomeness, but one way or another a baby is in the middle of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    It looks to me like the church is willing to do the baptism.
    It looks to me like the homosexual couple is using the kid as a pawn and trying to change the rules as opposed to going along with the rules of the church and getting the kid baptized.
    Again, i'd like to know more about what's really going on. Maybe you're right. It wouldn't be the first time some gay folk used something to make a statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    If the enternal damnation of the child was really the got dammed issue,ONE fuckin gay dad would have walked the brat in,gotten the baptism,and THEN went to the papers.
    That's catholic doctarine. Baptism and Last Rights are the two most important sacrements.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    But then,the kid would have been saved,and it would not make for very good emotional homosexual propaganda reading.
    Probably not, but maybe we can find some more information on the case.

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    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    I've never understood why people seem so intent on changing religion to suit thier own opinions. It seems to mean the essence of religion is that it is trying to change mankind, not the other way around. If you don't agree with the teachings of one religion, find one you do agree with. No sense beating your head against a marble wall.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
    The question is,do they have branch offices in Canada,and why isnt the two dads try to baptize the child in question into one of those churches???

    I would assume because they are catholic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Destiny
    I've never understood why people seem so intent on changing religion to suit thier own opinions. It seems to mean the essence of religion is that it is trying to change mankind, not the other way around. If you don't agree with the teachings of one religion, find one you do agree with. No sense beating your head against a marble wall.
    Or they could always ...

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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    You might be right....they might all be assholes.
    "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
    -Humphrey Bogart

    "Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink."
    -Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
    "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."
    -His reply

    "If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
    -David Daye

  25. #25
    Featured Member Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism Refusal

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcap
    ...Or they could always start their own...
    Henceforth, I shall be known as Reverend Destiny.
    Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle

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