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Thread: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    (snip)"Unfortunately, the clubs have already found a way to circumvent A.B. 2509 and make dancers' working conditions worse. Déjà Vu, a corporation that owns at least 10 clubs in San Francisco, has implemented a "ticket system" to get around the new law. Customers now buy "Couch Rent certificates" from the club and exchange these coupons for dances. A dancer named Stacy read to me from five signs she had torn off the walls of the club where she works: "Due to the passing of Assembly Bill 2509 ... clubs will no longer permit patrons to directly pay for private dance or other goods or services.... All patrons must purchase Couch Rent certificates in order to obtain any private dance." She added, "This is a ridiculous law that was proposed by a freshman legislator because of a half a dozen ex-dancers who claimed their peep show arcade was forcing them to split their tips."

    As laughable as the "Couch Rent certificates" sound, Stacy says that this new system is worse for the dancers. Under the old system, the dancers collected the money, then paid their employers a portion of their earnings. "Now the club collects all the money, and they don't have to pay the dancers anything. They're still supposed to be paying us minimum wage, and they're not even doing that!" (snip)

    from

    This blurb illustrates the difference in basic legal principle between a dancer working as an 'employee' versus an 'independent contractor', or at least the legal principle put forth by DejaVu corporate attorneys. When working as an 'employee', it is the dancer's job to perform lap dances for the club. The club, and not the dancer, therefore legally 'owns' the lap dances produced by their employee. The club, and not the dancer, legally sells the lap dances to customers.

    The club then has a variety of options in regard to compensating the dancer for performing her job, with the basic legal minimum being an hourly pay rate regardless of the number of lap dances a given dancer actually performed. All of the money that the club receives from the customer for each lap dance must therefore be considered as 'club income', except for those portions of that customer's money which the club can document paying out to individual dancers in the form of a 'sales commission'. Those documented payouts of 'sales commissions' to employee dancers then become a business expense tax deduction for the club, and become (automatically reported) taxable income for the dancer.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Thanks melonie. I was looking for something like that. Lawsuit-crazed wenches don't help matters for anyone who remains in the industry after the dust settles.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Captain Rob
    If this action really did set the "standard" for all clubs nationally, it would be a disaster for dancers nationally. The clubs would work around the new laws and make it harder on performers
    You bet they will.

    And Femme, PLEASE try to lay off with the know-it-all attitude. There are alot of people around here who know as much about this industry as you, possibly more, who happen to have different opinions than you. You're coming off like you think anyone who disagrees with you is just stupid, uneducated and spouting nothing but nonsense. Not really a good way to make your point hun.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Of course it makes sense that this would only happen in CA. A state full of liberal judges that would hear a case on these merits. I would also beware of a counter action, whatever you may win in the settlement (if that even happens) you would pay in back taxes after the club in retaliation drops your personal information into the hands of the IRS.
    Well, CA is not the only state which would love to see dancers categorized as employees. NY courts have made similar local rulings supporting the position of dancers being 'statutory' employees. I suspect the motivating force has very little to do with liberalism i.e. labor rights, but has a lot to do with liberal gov't spending habits i.e. the state's ability to force the official accounting and reporting of club customer cash into either taxable income to the club or into taxable income to the dancer.

    As far as the 'sentiment' behind CA dancers who support these lawsuits, based on my dancer friends who live and work in CA I would attribute this to a very zealous desire to pursue supposed 'dancer labor rights' being 'abused' by clubowners as a matter of principle, but with a very shortsighted view of the potential 'law of unintended consequences' and its probable effect on their future after-tax earnings potential and club working conditions which will stem from their efforts.

    When dancer vs. club lawsuits happened in NY in the early 90's, those 'unintended consequences' became very apparent, both to the dancers whose take-home income declined substantially, and to clubowners who were forced to pay employee benefit comp and unemployment premiums to the state of NY on behalf of their employee dancers. Basically, within a year, the handful of clubs who the NY courts ruled must treat their dancers as 'employees' found themselves without any 'hot' dancers (who moved to IC clubs where they could keep more of the money they were 'producing'), without any big spending customers (who followed the 'hot' dancers to a different club), and therefore without much of a profit margin.

    Fortunately for the future of exotic dancing in NY, all of these NY court rulings were specifically applied only to those clubs named in the various lawsuits, meaning that the next club down the street was still free to operate IC. Of the affected NY clubs which I know of, today only one is still in business, still treats its dancers as 'employees', still pays them minimum wage, does not even bother doing VIP or private dances, and pays its bills based on cover charges and drink sales at the bar. The dancers in this club are 'mediocre' (meaning that they haven't yet been able to get hired as IC's by another nearby club). They are indeed able to work without paying a stage fee and are able to keep 100% of their stage and table dance tips ... well to be more precise the clubowners take 0% of tip money but the IRS and NY income tax take probably 30%, since the dancers must turn in their tip money at the end of the night for the bar to record and change into bigger bills (and of course report on the dancer's weekly minimum wage paycheck stub) ! All told, the dancers at this club are lucky to net $100 a night.

    So my comments about the possible applications of the 'law of unintended consequences' regarding the SF club lawsuits and 'employee' dancer treatment are not purely theoretical. California is not the first state to attempt this. However, California apparently refuses to learn from the previous unfortunate experiences of other clubs and dancers who once faced the exact same situation.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-23-2005 at 03:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Femmes Fatales
    IT’S ABOUT THE LAW AND JUSTICE AND DON’T THINK THIS WILL NOT BE A NATIONAL LAW BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DETERMINES WHAT AN IC AND EMPLOYEE ARE.

    The dancers want protection under labor laws like anyone else who goes to work!
    The irony is that what you are proposing to do to protect dancers is in the end going to get a lot of them put out of work.

    A strip club has to make money. If it can't, there is no incentive for the club owner to run it. If the owner of a club is running 40 IC dancers on his night shift, and is forced to treat his dancers as employees, the number of gals he can actually have on staff will be dependent on the amount of income coming into the club. A cap would have to be imposed which depending on business conditions could rise or fall at any time.

    Suppose after taking a look at club records, that with the loss of stage fee revenue and the added business expenses (employer share of FICA taxes, etc.), management concludes that they can only run 20 girls on the night shift. This means the other 20 girls will have to be laid off.

    Now the question comes down to how does the club decide who has to leave (or at least be forcibly changed to a less desirable shift), and who gets to stay. If this cut is based on a seniority system, it means the club's longest tenured dancers, (ot neccesarily their best ones), will get to keep their jobs.

    Of course, it could possibly be argued the gals who get cut might be the lucky ones (assuming they can find work elsewhere). When customers coming in to the new "employee" club discover:

    1. That there are now half as many gals working (less quantity).
    2. That many of the better dancers are now gone since they didn't have seniority or left on their own because they knew the new system would be to their detriment (less quality).
    3. Many of the dancers who are remaining don't seem to motivated to entertain. Why should a gal sell lap dances for a 40-50% commission (that she'll have to wait 2-3 weeks to get via paycheck, minus payroll deductions) when she can make almost as much money sitting on her bum.
    4. That an increase in cover, drink, and dance prices may have to be instituted to help pay for this new system (greater expense for a lesser product).

    ...then they'll stop going to that club altogether. And unless part of this plan involves forcing men off the street at gunpoint to come in and spend money, there's not much that can be done about that.

    The club notices the cash register ringing less and less, and you guessed it, decides they're going to have to lay off even more dancers off to stay in the black, and the downward spiral continues, until the situation is so grave that the club is eventually forced out of business. Now, in the interest of giving dancers "protection", everyone is out of a job.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    Lawsuit-crazed wenches don't help matters for anyone who remains in the industry after the dust settles.
    Very true.

    This is a very complex issue and it is far from new. These wage/hour labor lawsuits are common and are not necessarily as simple to determine who benefits as is represented in this thread. Certainly the outcome of this one will have little impact nationally. If such were the case, earlier cases already would have.

    I fundamentally disagree with the economic model proposed by doc, which in my opinion essentially advocates legally problematic conduct as a business model. This topic in general is not a wise one to discuss on a public website.

    For certain "elephant in the room" reasons, neither management nor workers in this industry seem eager to fight these cases. Melanie and I have debated this much earlier and in a much more civil way and I agree with many of her points. One of the key questions I had was about worker injuries and fines. Without getting back into it, although case law and statutes favor the plaintiff here, in my opinion, history does not. The law is more complex than the hyperbole and rants of one or two allegedly aggrieved people. Any reform will take far more than one localized class action. Also, the referenced cite has virtually no information.

    I'd beware of any premature celebrating, which invariably leads to sloppiness and dissappointment. Also, read A Civil Action, by Jonathon Harr. Anyone so thrilled as Ms. Fatale seems to be to be a party in a lawsuit needs to. It ain't pretty, and it ain't a party.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Melanie and I have debated this much earlier and in a much more civil way and I agree with many of her points. One of the key questions I had was about worker injuries and fines. Without getting back into it, although case law and statutes favor the plaintiff here, in my opinion, history does not. The law is more complex than the hyperbole and rants of one or two allegedly aggrieved people. Any reform will take far more than one localized class action.
    Well, as another 'unintended consequence', you've just focused attention on yet another area where 'employee' treatment could negatively impact dancers. Federal and state laws all differentiate between 'full time' employees and 'part time' employees. The primary criteria is that 'full time' employees must be provided a minimum level of fringe benefits by their employer, while the employer need not provide such benefits for 'part time' employees. The usual legal definition of 'part time' is an employee who works 24 hours per week or less. Thus one 'unintended consequence' may be that, faced with paying incredibly high premiums for unemployment and worker's comp insurance and other fringe benefits for 'full time' employees, clubowners may restrict the maximum weekly working hours for ALL employee dancers to 24 hours or less.

    In this 'part time' scenario, in addition to your previous point about dancer shift assignments now being based on 'employee' criteria such as seniority, different night of the week assignments could very well wind up being decided in the same manner. Thus a 'mediocre' dancer with high seniority would be guaranteed of working thursday, friday and saturday nights, while any potential 'hot' new dancer would be relegated to monday, tuesday and wednesday. This is NOT a business model which tends to attract big spending club customers, nor one which tends to retain 'hot' new dancers !

    Also, if you want to see some real world proof of the results of clubs treating dancers as 'employees', and in California to boot, do a net search for 'Lusty Lady Bankruptcy' or simply start here -->
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-23-2005 at 12:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    A couple things:
    1) Clubs such as Mitchell Brothers are fairly well protected as they have been sued at least twice (both times resulting in astronomical increases in stage fees to help pay increased insurance premiums). They have implemented a similar plan to remove the visibility of stage fees (i.e. dance "chips" that only patrons can purchase, and pre-set quota of number of dance chips the dancers must turn-in per shift, which varies by shift, weekday or day/night shift).
    2) The real "problem" is more of a blessing in disguise, which is how some SF brothels impose harsh shift and hours regulation. While this is the 'worst of both worlds', it has limited staff to only those able to be accountable to tough schedules, which in turn reduces the 'flake' portion of the staff base. This does take stress off the girls working in them by not having lots of drugged out flakes that can only show up randomly, but instead women accountable enough to work enforced schedules like an employee. Clubs with more 'private contractor' shift flexibility always attract 'flakier' girls which makes the working environment that much less tolerable.
    3) Removing extras/brothels from SF would be a good long-term strategy, but it cannot happen until the rest of the sex industry here is reformed. Lawsuits and harsher penalties on brothel-owners would only have the end result of hurting women in these establishments NOW (as Bridgette stipulated), especially given the massive amount of massage parlours, broadway jack-shacks, hotel escort brothels and street walkers.

    Even the most rudimentary knowledge of SF from the past 10 years would prove lawsuits or pushing on stripclub/brothel owners has only resulted in increased suffering for the women working the sex industry in SF. This is no way invalidates the ploys of the exotic dancer's union, but it does place them in a position of lose-lose given their current plight.

    It should also not go without saying that the voter outcry does not support such measures as locals are more interested in the street walker, drug dealer/pimp, and other big city issues. Mayor and DA focus has always been negatively viewed by the voters when any focus is given to the less visible problem going on in the stripclubs when local neighborhoods are flushed with drug dealers, prostitutes and a greatly reduced tourist economy from more and more conventions and business opportunities lost over the past 5 years.
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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Ah, so they're suing against the old management, not Deja Vu. Hmmm...
    "We all must suffer from one of two pains: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. The difference is discipline weighs ounces while regret weighs tons. In order to achieve what others don't, you have to do what others won't."


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    Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action


    (snip)"Unfortunately, the clubs have already found a way to circumvent A.B. 2509 and make dancers' working conditions worse. Déjà Vu, a corporation that owns at least 10 clubs in San Francisco, has implemented a "ticket system" to get around the new law. Customers now buy "Couch Rent certificates" from the club and exchange these coupons for dances. A dancer named Stacy read to me from five signs she had torn off the walls of the club where she works: "Due to the passing of Assembly Bill 2509 ... clubs will no longer permit patrons to directly pay for private dance or other goods or services.... All patrons must purchase Couch Rent certificates in order to obtain any private dance." She added, "This is a ridiculous law that was proposed by a freshman legislator because of a half a dozen ex-dancers who claimed their peep show arcade was forcing them to split their tips."

    As laughable as the "Couch Rent certificates" sound, Stacy says that this new system is worse for the dancers. Under the old system, the dancers collected the money, then paid their employers a portion of their earnings. "Now the club collects all the money, and they don't have to pay the dancers anything. " (snip)

    from
    http://www.sfbg.com/SFLife/35/20/leadb.html





    Melonie don’t believe everything you read in the newspapers.

    The club that is referred to in the article is Show Girls Centerfolds. It was the first Déjà vu club to open in San Francisco on Broadway and Montgomery. This club only has it’s own unusual practices and always has. Of all the Déjà vu clubs it way of doing things one of it is besides the stage fee they have always taken half of the $20 fee for a lap dance.

    It’s important to understand there is a very fine line between prostitution and lap dancing if it is not a tip but a paid for service. This is something the clubs have tipped toed around for years hopping not to be called on it in court especially now!

    No one has circumvent A.B. 2509 the Ca. State Board has not been doing its job for some reason. Is it corruption under staffing? We don’t now and since the FBI is involved in the matter and a national article about the abuse of dancers is about ready to be launched we will see what happens!

    A.B. 2509 was a pourly written BILL. NOTHING NEW there it does not mean it can’t be fixed.

    As I keep pointing out there are many lawsuits filed against déjà vu including one in federal court. Can you see the owners trying to explain a $ 20 dollar coach/bed rental fee for nude dancers to dance with customers it’s ludicrous while at the same time why they didn’t follow the laws.” THEY’RE still supposed to be paying us minimum wage, and they're not even doing that!”




    This blurb illustrates the difference in basic legal principle between a dancer working as an 'employee' versus an 'independent contractor', or at least the legal principle put forth by déjà vu corporate attorneys. When working as an 'employee', it is the dancer's job to perform lap dances for the club. The club, and not the dancer, therefore legally 'owns' the lap dances produced by their employee. The club, and not the dancer, legally sells the lap dances to customers.

    The club then has a variety of options in regard to compensating the dancer for performing her job, with the basic legal minimum being an hourly pay rate regardless of the number of lap dances a given dancer actually performed. All of the money that the club receives from the customer for each lap dance must therefore be considered as 'club income', except for those portions of that customer's money, which the club can document paying out to individual dancers in the form of a 'sales commission'. Those documented payouts of 'sales commissions' to employee dancers then become a business expense tax deduction for the club, and become (automatically reported) taxable income for the dancer.







    Déjà vu corporate attorneys ha! Do you think what they are doing is legal or just some BS they concocted to try to extend the gravy train longer? I do not believe any of it will hold up in court and that’s what going to be determined.

    Remember the dancers have already won lawsuit the only major one file recently settled out of court in 1998. Now pay attention here. The same time these pimps are going to court The article about how dancers in San Francisco were denied legal protection their right under the law for 10 years, hmm along with the FBI on there ass.

    Why do you think déjà vu stopped the prostitution in its clubs? Maybe to eliminate more evidence that the jury could walk into and see what their business’s are like?




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Well, CA is not the only state which would love to see dancers categorized as employees. NY courts have made similar local rulings supporting the position of dancers being 'statutory' employees. I suspect the motivating force has very little to do with liberalism i.e. labor rights, but has a lot to do with liberal gov't spending habits i.e. the state's ability to force the official accounting and reporting of club customer cash into either taxable income to the club or into taxable income to the dancer.

    As far as the 'sentiment' behind CA dancers who support these lawsuits, based on my dancer friends who live and work in CA I would attribute this to a very zealous desire to pursue supposed 'dancer labor rights' being 'abused' by clubowners as a matter of principle, but with a very shortsighted view of the potential 'law of unintended consequences' and its probable effect on their future after-tax earnings potential and club working conditions which will stem from their efforts.

    When dancer vs. club lawsuits happened in NY in the early 90's, those 'unintended consequences' became very apparent, both to the dancers whose take-home income declined substantially, and to clubowners who were forced to pay employee benefit comp and unemployment premiums to the state of NY on behalf of their employee dancers. Basically, within a year, the handful of clubs who the NY courts ruled must treat their dancers as 'employees' found themselves without any 'hot' dancers (who moved to IC clubs where they could keep more of the money they were 'producing'), without any big spending customers (who followed the 'hot' dancers to a different club), and therefore without much of a profit margin.

    Fortunately for the future of exotic dancing in NY, all of these NY court rulings were specifically applied only to those clubs named in the various lawsuits, meaning that the next club down the street was still free to operate IC. Of the affected NY clubs which I know of, today only one is still in business, still treats its dancers as 'employees', still pays them minimum wage, does not even bother doing VIP or private dances, and pays its bills based on cover charges and drink sales at the bar. The dancers in this club are 'mediocre' (meaning that they haven't yet been able to get hired as IC's by another nearby club). They are indeed able to work without paying a stage fee and are able to keep 100% of their stage and table dance tips ... well to be more precise the clubowners take 0% of tip money but the IRS and NY income tax take probably 30%, since the dancers must turn in their tip money at the end of the night for the bar to record and change into bigger bills (and of course report on the dancer's weekly minimum wage paycheck stub) ! All told, the dancers at this club are lucky to net $100 a night.

    So my comments about the possible applications of the 'law of unintended consequences' regarding the SF club lawsuits and 'employee' dancer treatment are not purely theoretical. California is not the first state to attempt this. However, California apparently refuses to learn from the previous unfortunate experiences of other clubs and dancers who once faced the exact same situation.
    Do you have any documentation? Anything to back up the story you just told?




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    Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action


    The irony is that what you are proposing to do to protect dancers is in the end going to get a lot of them put out of work.


    Now hold on there doc-catfish I’m not proposing anything yet! I have just posted a Class action notice that other dancer proposed!


    A strip club has to make money. If it can't, there is no incentive for the club owner to run it. If the owner of a club is running 40 IC dancers on his night shift, and is forced to treat his dancers as employees, the number of gals he can actually have on staff will be dependent on the amount of income coming into the club. A cap would have to be imposed which depending on business conditions could rise or fall at any time.






    There will always be Adult Entertainment Theaters in America. If one dope can’t figure out how to make money some smart guy will legally!


    Suppose after taking a look at club records, that with the loss of stage fee revenue and the added business expenses (employer share of FICA taxes, etc.), management concludes that they can only run 20 girls on the night shift. This means the other 20 girls will have to be laid off.

    Now the question comes down to how does the club decide who has to leave (or at least be forcibly changed to a less desirable shift), and who gets to stay. If this cut is based on a seniority system, it means the club's longest tenured dancers, (ot neccesarily their best ones), will get to keep their jobs.




    Of course, it could possibly be argued the gals who get cut might be the lucky ones (assuming they can find work elsewhere). When customers coming in to the new "employee" club discover:

    1. That there are now half as many gals working (less quantity).
    2. That many of the better dancers are now gone since they didn't have seniority or left on their own because they knew the new system would be to their detriment (less quality).
    3. Many of the dancers who are remaining don't seem to motivated to entertain. Why should a gal sell lap dances for a 40-50% commission (that she'll have to wait 2-3 weeks to get via paycheck, minus payroll deductions) when she can make almost as much money sitting on her bum.
    4. That an increase in cover, drink, and dance prices may have to be instituted to help pay for this new system (greater expense for a lesser product).

    ...then they'll stop going to that club altogether. And unless part of this plan involves forcing men off the street at gunpoint to come in and spend money, there's not much that can be done about that.

    The club notices the cash register ringing less and less, and you guessed it, decides they're going to have to lay off even more dancers off to stay in the black, and the downward spiral continues, until the situation is so grave that the club is eventually forced out of business. Now, in the interest of giving dancers "protection", everyone is out of a job.





    Sorry doc-catfish I’m not in the suppose business I’m in the fact business!



    Suppose dancers get a union and get paid $20 to $100 an hour. Remember guys are there not to see management but dancers. So if management wants to get up there and try to dance for a bunch of horny fat old men let them.



    Are all your proposals a negative Do you have one positive outcome.



    Dancers deserve what the law states including workmen’s comp and disability.



    If one of these dancers is injured there is no safety net they deserve their American rights.

    That’s what I’m proposing give the girls there rights as American citizens and human beings.



    Are you a club owner?




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    The irony is that what you are proposing to do to protect dancers is in the end going to get a lot of them put out of work.
    Now hold on there doc-catfish I’m not proposing anything yet! I have just posted a Class action notice that other dancer proposed!

    A strip club has to make money. If it can't, there is no incentive for the club owner to run it. If the owner of a club is running 40 IC dancers on his night shift, and is forced to treat his dancers as employees, the number of gals he can actually have on staff will be dependent on the amount of income coming into the club. A cap would have to be imposed which depending on business conditions could rise or fall at any time.

    There will always be Adult Entertainment Theaters in America. If one dope can’t figure out how to make money some smart guy will legally!

    Suppose after taking a look at club records, that with the loss of stage fee revenue and the added business expenses (employer share of FICA taxes, etc.), management concludes that they can only run 20 girls on the night shift. This means the other 20 girls will have to be laid off.

    Now the question comes down to how does the club decide who has to leave (or at least be forcibly changed to a less desirable shift), and who gets to stay. If this cut is based on a seniority system, it means the club's longest tenured dancers, (ot neccesarily their best ones), will get to keep their jobs.


    Of course, it could possibly be argued the gals who get cut might be the lucky ones (assuming they can find work elsewhere). When customers coming in to the new "employee" club discover:

    1. That there are now half as many gals working (less quantity).
    2. That many of the better dancers are now gone since they didn't have seniority or left on their own because they knew the new system would be to their detriment (less quality).
    3. Many of the dancers who are remaining don't seem to motivated to entertain. Why should a gal sell lap dances for a 40-50% commission (that she'll have to wait 2-3 weeks to get via paycheck, minus payroll deductions) when she can make almost as much money sitting on her bum.
    4. That an increase in cover, drink, and dance prices may have to be instituted to help pay for this new system (greater expense for a lesser product).

    ...then they'll stop going to that club altogether. And unless part of this plan involves forcing men off the street at gunpoint to come in and spend money, there's not much that can be done about that.

    The club notices the cash register ringing less and less, and you guessed it, decides they're going to have to lay off even more dancers off to stay in the black, and the downward spiral continues, until the situation is so grave that the club is eventually forced out of business. Now, in the interest of giving dancers "protection", everyone is out of a job.
    Sorry doc-catfish I’m not in the suppose business I’m in the fact business!

    Suppose dancers get a union and get paid $20 to $100 an hour. Remember guys are there not to see management but dancers. So if management wants to get up there and try to dance for a bunch of horny fat old men let them.

    Are all your proposals a negative Do you have one positive outcome.

    Dancers deserve what the law states including workmen’s comp and disability.

    If one of these dancers is injured there is no safety net they deserve their American rights.
    That’s what I’m proposing give the girls there rights as American citizens and human beings.

    Are you a club owner?




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    stant

    Also, the referenced cite has virtually no information.
    If you are referring to http://www.exoticdancerslib.com/you must have just stayed on the one page http://www.exoticdancerslib.com/noti...ass_action.htm
    there are over 110 artilces posted at http://www.exoticdancerslib.com/phpB...e4beafaecc713a.

    If not forget the message. If so show many any site that compares to the dancer news stored there.

    Seems to be alot of people reading no information including the media and the FBI.






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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    You know Femme, I have read your posts and the legal documentation that you have posted in this thread, and apparently since you decided to attack me due to my opinons based on my expierence in this business I have decided to clarify my point a little better for you. First off, I have been a Dj since I was 16, I have managed a few clubs and also been part of many inner management cores. I have dated dancers my whole life and have been close to many as friends and co-workers. I know based on what has been TOLD to me by many entertainers and thier own thoughts and opinions what many (I never said all) performers think about this topic.

    Now, with that out of the way...lets get back to the issue.

    My point is (and i will repeat myself), that no matter how many of these lawsuits are brought into action, it will NEVER change the industry as a whole, all it could ever do is reclassify dancers as Employees as opposed to IC's. I promise you that the clubs would find a way around whatever new legislation may eventully be passed. I noticed you never addressed my example of what I know a few clubs would automatically do if forced to classify dancers as employees. Any thoughts on it?
    I will summarize it again so you dont have to re-read it.

    The clubs if forced to make dancers employees will pay you the state min hourly for tipped employees. Yes, you will get your comp and disabilty. But the trick is in the dances. At that point you would do ALL your vip dances for free. Because you work for the CLUB at that point and they dont have to pay you a dime for those dances. So customer pays bar for X no. of dances. (Which the money the club would make would more than cover the damages they would take for a large employee base) Plus, you would be scheduled to work when THEY want you to for a 8hr shift..etc etc. They could even go as far as to tell you what to wear, what music to play..etc etc. The club then could set any standard of rules and regulations for you to follow.
    Then of course your tips, when employers have "tipped" employees, they are required to report that income to the IRS and the state. You would have to report a certain amount of tips per shift on your time card which would be automaticaly taxed and deducted from your already small paycheck. There are lots of other tricks they could pull too, i am just naming a few.

    Now my question is this. What does the dancer industry as a whole REALLY gain if they all were employees? Why is this such a big deal? Yes everyone deserves thier rights I would never expect someone to sacrifice rights for anyone. But, is this campaign really realistic?? I dont understand why a small minority of dancers lobby for an employee classification. Don't they understand that will hurt the MAJORITY of dancers in the long run. Clubs can just up the costs as mentioned by someone.

    And addressing the union issue, there is no possible way on gods green earth that you will be able to unify the entire dancer community under one flag. Most dancers are working for themselves to begin with. Clubs wouldnt deal with a dancers union becuase there are 50 dancers standing outside wanting to work there that dont give a damn about "employee" benifits..etc etc. A vast majority have accepted the fact that...Hey, if i am going to make 500-1000 in a night I may just have to pay a little bit to the club, or pay a few tipouts. Thats why i can make this kinda money. Even with the a dancers union it would be hard for you to hold these clubs at gunpoint because what are you gonna do, go on strike till your demands are met?? The clubs could have 30 more girls the next day.

    It is just odd to me that a small minority of dancers try to set the standards for the whole, by waving the "my rights are being violated" flag. Hell i think the amount of tax free, cash that you make as an IC would far outwiegh the min wage paycheck, and a few basic benifits that an employee classification would bring. Someone please explain it to me.

    Of course this is my opinon, I in no way am speaking for millions of performers, I wouldnt want to be accused of my thumb up my ass again..lol. I just dont understand the campaign that this small batch are fighting. I cant believe that these people are so blind to see the serious damage they could do to the whole industry. I just dont understand thier motives...someone please tell me.

    Well thats enough for now...

    Cap't

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    Lightbulb Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Dj Captain Rob
    My point is (and i will repeat myself), that no matter how many of these lawsuits are brought into action, it will NEVER change the industry as a whole, all it could ever do is reclassify dancers as Employees as opposed to IC's. I promise you that the clubs would find a way around whatever new legislation may eventully be passed. I noticed you never addressed my example of what I know a few clubs would automatically do if forced to classify dancers as employees. Any thoughts on it?
    I will summarize it again so you dont have to re-read it.
    You are entitled to your opinion. I never tell give out personal details for security reasons but I have an opinion too. Yours and mine differ that’s life right?

    The clubs if forced to make dancers employees will pay you the state min hourly for tipped employees. Yes, you will get your comp and disabilty. But the trick is in the dances. At that point you would do ALL your vip dances for free. Because you work for the CLUB at that point and they dont have to pay you a dime for those dances. So customer pays bar for X no. of dances. (Which the money the club would make would more than cover the damages they would take for a large employee base) Plus, you would be scheduled to work when THEY want you to for a 8hr shift..etc etc. They could even go as far as to tell you what to wear, what music to play..etc etc. The club then could set any standard of rules and regulations for you to follow.
    Then of course your tips, when employers have "tipped" employees, they are required to report that income to the IRS and the state. You would have to report a certain amount of tips per shift on your time card which would be automaticaly taxed and deducted from your already small paycheck. There are lots of other tricks they could pull too, i am just naming a few.
    Yeah remove the mob from the clubs just as they did in the casinos in Vegas. Unionize and strike we will see who controls what.

    Dancers are stars who are treated like dirt.They could bring the management to its knees especially if they got their customers to help!

    Dancers have the power they just have to form together to make the fist that smashes the abusers!

    Now my question is this. What does the dancer industry as a whole REALLY gain if they all were employees? Why is this such a big deal? Yes everyone deserves thier rights I would never expect someone to sacrifice rights for anyone. But, is this campaign really realistic?? I dont understand why a small minority of dancers lobby for an employee classification. Don't they understand that will hurt the MAJORITY of dancers in the long run. Clubs can just up the costs as mentioned by someone.
    This site is so controlled by pro IC’s that no one dare speak up against them. They are squished and pulverized. So you have no way of know how many want how much. Your guessing and your guess is as good as mine.
    And addressing the union issue, there is no possible way on gods green earth that you will be able to unify the entire dancer community under one flag. Most dancers are working for themselves to begin with. Clubs wouldnt deal with a dancers union becuase there are 50 dancers standing outside wanting to work there that dont give a damn about "employee" benifits..etc etc. A vast majority have accepted the fact that...Hey, if i am going to make 500-1000 in a night I may just have to pay a little bit to the club, or pay a few tipouts. Thats why i can make this kinda money. Even with the a dancers union it would be hard for you to hold these clubs at gunpoint because what are you gonna do, go on strike till your demands are met?? The clubs could have 30 more girls the next day.
    I’m sure they said the same thing about the teamsters, long shore man and coal miners too. And look what happened to them. You have to realize the internet has given the girls the key to organize safely and anomalously and than Bam wild cat strike nationwide July the 4th weekend. The girls knew and saved up their money for months. Now will see how many scabs cross the line of these seasoned veterans.

    Remember the customers come to see beauty and class not pigs. Only pigs would dare cross the dancer sisterhood. They could never work in a club in that city again and would have to worry at each club that the secret would come out that they were a scab.

    Dancers know how to deal with double crossers!
    It is just odd to me that a small minority of dancers try to set the standards for the whole, by waving the "my rights are being violated" flag. Hell i think the amount of tax free, cash that you make as an IC would far outwiegh the min wage paycheck, and a few basic benifits that an employee classification would bring. Someone please explain it to me.
    WELL EXCUSE THE DANCERS ALL TO HELL FOR STANDING UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS!
    Of course this is my opinon, I in no way am speaking for millions of performers, I wouldnt want to be accused of my thumb up my ass again..lol. I just dont understand the campaign that this small batch are fighting. I cant believe that these people are so blind to see the serious damage they could do to the whole industry. I just dont understand thier motives...someone please tell me.
    This ”small batch” is in the same city that started the topless scene, lap dancing, stage fees, and the first dancers union. Why not be the first to start the ball rolling to improve conditions for dancer. God know it’s over do.

    Motive? Next time you find your rights taken away unfairly you’ll understand until than you’ll have to except that's it’s not expectable to them.
    Last edited by Femmes Fatales; 08-24-2005 at 02:46 AM.




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    FF, that's a mighty lot of glittering generalities and motivational jargon, but not much substance. Where are the issue-specific arguments? You say you have an opinion on the specific issues we bring up here, but you don't mention them. Instead you move on to the emotional motivational speech. I think you may have missed your calling. Maybe you should just hang up the stilettos and become a motivational speaker and sell videos and such on infomercials.

    Strippers are not in the business for the long haul. We're in it for the quick buck - to get as much as we can while we can. This in itself leads most of us to prefer IC over employee status, and to lack interest in unionizing or organizing time-consuming lawsuits. We're usually too busy making money... Except some girls in CA, I guess. But then CA is called the land of fruits and nuts.


    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Oh. And there will NEVER but NEVER in any of our lifetimes be a house stripper getting paid $100/hr by the club. LOL! They'd be damn lucky to even get $20. LOLOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    FF, that's a mighty lot of glittering generalities and motivational jargon, but not much substance. Where are the issue-specific arguments? You say you have an opinion on the specific issues we bring up here, but you don't mention them. Instead you move on to the emotional motivational speech. I think you may have missed your calling. Maybe you should just hang up the stilettos and become a motivational speaker and sell videos and such on infomercials.

    Strippers are not in the business for the long haul. We're in it for the quick buck - to get as much as we can while we can. This in itself leads most of us to prefer IC over employee status, and to lack interest in unionizing or organizing time-consuming lawsuits. We're usually too busy making money... Except some girls in CA, I guess. But then CA is called the land of fruits and nuts.

    No! That's the land of milk and honey!
    Last edited by Femmes Fatales; 08-24-2005 at 10:13 AM.




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Do you have any documentation? Anything to back up the story you just told?
    I probably have some old pay stubs somewhere ! I actually worked for this club for a couple of weeks early on in my career, while waiting to be put on the schedule of an IC club down the street. After tax withholding on my hourly base pay and tip earnings, I don't think that I ever cleared $100 a night during those two weeks - equivalent to $12 or less per hour.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    Oh. And there will NEVER but NEVER in any of our lifetimes be a house stripper getting paid $100/hr by the club. LOL! They'd be damn lucky to even get $20. LOLOL!
    Did you ever see the movie Show Girls? How much do you think the house strippers make in the Vegas shows. They are dancers and are “house” dancers in that they dance there on a regular basis! Especially the stars of the show I bet they probably get $1000’s of dollars and hour.

    You know I’ll have to look into that and get back to you !




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    I probably have some old pay stubs somewhere ! I actually worked for this club for a couple of weeks early on in my career, while waiting to be put on the schedule of an IC club down the street.
    No I mean a newspaper articles not pay stubs!




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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Femmes Fatales
    Did you ever see the movie Show Girls? How much do you think the house strippers make in the Vegas shows. They are dancers and are “house” dancers in that they dance there on a regular basis! Especially the stars of the show I bet they probably get $1000’s of dollars and hour.

    You know I’ll have to look into that and get back to you !
    Are you actually a stripper? The house dancers in Vegas are I.C. like in most places. They are NOT employees and they dance for tips. How many clubs have you actually danced in? I also don't consider newspaper articles any more informative than real-world experiences of the members here. The media has their agenda and biases too. Every story posted on that link was written to appeal to people who know nothing of the strip-club industry.

    If you are actually a stripper, you should be able to see through the civilian coddling and actually consider insider information. Collectively, we as a group have danced all over the world for 20 plus years. An intelligent person would take this into consideration.

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Femmes Fatales
    Did you ever see the movie Show Girls? How much do you think the house strippers make in the Vegas shows. Especially the stars of the show I bet they probably get $1000’s of dollars and hour.
    Vegas shows? Are we talking about strippers (ala Olympic Gardens, Spearmint Rhino) or casino property showgirls (ala Follies Bergere, Skintight) here? There's a hell of a difference. The latter category doesn't deal in direct performance sales to customers for starters. I also should point out that Showgirls was a fictional movie.

    If its the former, well we've got plenty of gals on the board who have danced in LV and can tell you straight up. Why don't you go to the Club Chat board and find out?
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Veteran Member Dj Captain Rob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Femme...


    Not once in my entire post did you address any of my specific questions...

    You say rights are being taken away?? Name them.

    Melanie was giving an example of how little money you would make in a employee based club. That was a perfect example.

    Now as far as unions go. A dancer "strike" would NEVER work. These are not airline mechanics, steal workers we are talking about. I hate to be the one to point this out but Dancers are a dime a dozen (and not just the pigs either) there are literally thousands that are waiting for thier 18th birthday just so they can start. There are many more than again dont give a damn about the "dancer sisterhood" and would be at work the next night If 20 walked out the night before. Real dancers you say... hmmm IMO real dancers are out to make their money and dont give a damn about yours. They are out to pay the car insurance, rent, credit cards, support the kids...etc. Where do you get the idea there is ANY loyality in this business.
    Maybe when it comes to how dancers are treated by CUSTOMERS you will find alot on the same page. But in this issue, common sense tells you that the dancers would be devistated financially by the classification and the clubs would easily find a way around it. If they can find away around all the state/city legislation to open a club in the first place then it wouldnt be too difficult to work around "labor" related issues. Not all clubs are "mob" controlled either probably a good thing... i dont think dancers that filed action against a mob controlled club and caused them to lose money would be doing very well (ever seen goodfellas? Since you like movies
    Anyways, yes we differ on our opinion, but my whole point about this lawsuit is that it is unrealistic and alot of flag waving for a cause that dosent really help. Is this all about the extra 100 dollar min wage paycheck that you might not be getting?? Hell, myself as a DJ (that is my primary job these days) gets trampled on, wanna know why?? Cause I am an employee!! I get a paycheck and a tipout from the girls (which is set by the club) and thats it, I have to accept and deal with that. I would much rather be and IC. I would gladly give up the workmans comp/disabilty. To set my own tipout, come and go as I please, work when i want and charge the club what I want for my services.
    As far as showgirls..yes I saw that movie. I went with about 15 girls from my club when it opened. Most of us couldnt stop laughing, it was a fictional picture based on vegas shows in a casino or showclub. Not your regular gentlemens club or the local corner titty bar.
    I notice alot of people and performers are agreeing with me here. Why would that be?? Maybe because these people understand how much they stand to lose, or maybe they dont like a small batch of performers trying to set the standard for all of them?
    So please...explain to me what rights are being trampled on, examples please. Not roundabout flag waving but I would like to see what you stand to gain by this action as opposed to how bad you are suffering without it and why?
    Again I am not defending the clubs here, they can be a pain in the ass to me also.

    Cap't

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    Default Re: Attention Gold Club (s.f.) Dancers Notice Of Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    FF, that's a mighty lot of glittering generalities and motivational jargon, but not much substance. Where are the issue-specific arguments? You say you have an opinion on the specific issues we bring up here, but you don't mention them. Instead you move on to the emotional motivational speech. I think you may have missed your calling. Maybe you should just hang up the stilettos and become a motivational speaker and sell videos and such on infomercials.

    Strippers are not in the business for the long haul. We're in it for the quick buck - to get as much as we can while we can. This in itself leads most of us to prefer IC over employee status, and to lack interest in unionizing or organizing time-consuming lawsuits. We're usually too busy making money... Except some girls in CA, I guess. But then CA is called the land of fruits and nuts.

    Excellent post Omg someone agrees with me. California....well it might break off into the ocean someday, i guess that would solve that problem..lol

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