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Thread: MW's HG OTC

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    I think it's just wrong to say that strippers who selectively "date" a few customers are deluded for thinking they aren't hookers, and to say they're stupid for charging below market rates.

    First, the rates. I would think that a component of a prostitute's rate is a risk premium. Whatever screening method she uses, she doesn't have that great an ability to screen out johns who could be dangerous and abusive. Strippers who only "date" customers they've gotten to know pretty well over a decent period of time are in a much better position to protect themselves in this regard. I'd also imagine there's less of an "ick" factor in only selling sex to guys you know pretty well already and have a large hand in choosing, as opposed to complete strangers.

    That's from the stripper's perspective. From the customer's prospective, look at the difference in what you have to go through beforehand in order to strike a deal. With a prostitute, you pick up the phone, give some info, make an appointment, and there you are. With the kind of strippers we're talking about, you establish a relationship over a period of weeks or even months, you spend money in the club, and then if you're lucky you get to "date" her -- at her convenience, not yours. Why wouldn't you fairly pay less to the stripper?

    The selectivity I referred to above also shows why I don't think these girls are completely deluded in denying they're prostitutes. Prostitutes can have varying degrees of selectivity, but the fact remains that their basic job is to fuck guys they don't know. They can't turn away that many potential johns, or else they're out a job. The kind of strippers we're talking about here, in contrast, will only "date" guys they affirmatively choose to (for whatever reason -- I'm not supporting some customers' delusional posts here that it's all about their sexual magnetism). I don't think these girls are completely on Mars if they don't think of themselves as full-scale prostitutes.

    (I hope it goes without saying that none of the foregoing is meant to imply that I think these strippers are "better" than prostitutes. In some ways, I respect prostitutes more for being braver and more upfront. I just think Evan and Jenny are being a bit unfair here.)

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Well stated, Rath. The social psychology of microeconomics is an emerging field that attempts to explain decisions that are not purely rational in a monetary reward sense.

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    First, the rates. I would think that a component of a prostitute's rate is a risk premium. Whatever screening method she uses, she doesn't have that great an ability to screen out johns who could be dangerous and abusive. Strippers who only "date" customers they've gotten to know pretty well over a decent period of time are in a much better position to protect themselves in this regard. I'd also imagine there's less of an "ick" factor in only selling sex to guys you know pretty well already and have a large hand in choosing, as opposed to complete strangers.
    So you are arguing that strippers may charge less because they "know" their customers. Well - you are assuming here that knowing someone actually makes them more palatable. And that you actually know someone through a strip club. I don't think there is less of an ick factor because you know someone. And, honestly, I don't think the ick factor has anything to do with it. You can be all sorts of hot for your clientele and STILL get the market rate. If you want to be not a hooker, you can fuck them for free. And if you want the cash you can get the going rate. It still seems stupid to accept less money and then rationalize it to yourself. I would like to point out that I personally don't know any girls who do this. The girls I know who exchange heavy contact or sex for cheap are doing it because either A) they are too drunk to make good decisions or B) they believe this is the best they can do because they are not savvy neogotiators or it is all they have to offer. I have never seen a girl who was like "Well, why don't you only pay me $200 so I'm not really exchanging sex for money. Except that I am. So I'm hoping for some boost in "morality" by only accepting a little money. Plus I just love cock." I think this may be an urban myth.

    Incidentally - in terms of risk premium. The guys that seek out prostitutes don't tend to be rapists and meanies. The rapists and meanies tend to go home and beat their wives. Like I know there are serial killers and such that have targetted prostitutes, but in general. And, of course, because in Canada prostitution has never been illegal (granted it's not illegal in kind of complicated way, but it's still not illegal) the risk is not really as great - like the prostitute can go to the police just as readily as anyone else.

    That's from the stripper's perspective. From the customer's prospective, look at the difference in what you have to go through beforehand in order to strike a deal. With a prostitute, you pick up the phone, give some info, make an appointment, and there you are. With the kind of strippers we're talking about, you establish a relationship over a period of weeks or even months, you spend money in the club, and then if you're lucky you get to "date" her -- at her convenience, not yours. Why wouldn't you fairly pay less to the stripper?
    Yeah, but I think this is an equally stupid thing to do. Like, seriously - I have all the ego in the world, but I do not get that a guy would come into my club and spend months working his way into my pants (this is excluding the guys that think they love you. Because you know. To them you're special) when he can open the yellowpages and get the same thing in 30 minutes for way less than what he has spent on me (because I am bright and I have never let a customer finger me for the price of a drink. Not when I know perfectly well that I can get 2 drinks). This is, incidentally, why dancers are suspicious of guys who offer like $20 000 to sleep with them, and why they tend to say no without thinking about it. Because they're like "yeah, right. And I bet you've got a bridge to sell me".

    Prostitutes can have varying degrees of selectivity, but the fact remains that their basic job is to fuck guys they don't know. They can't turn away that many potential johns, or else they're out a job. The kind of strippers we're talking about here, in contrast, will only "date" guys they affirmatively choose to (for whatever reason -- I'm not supporting some customers' delusional posts here that it's all about their sexual magnetism). I don't think these girls are completely on Mars if they don't think of themselves as full-scale prostitutes.
    See - I think the basic job of a prostitute is to have sex for money. Full stop. I don't think the clientele's status of ickability of familiarity have a lot to do with it. I think there could be some room for debate around professional girlfriends, but that would largely be because their job is much, much bigger and more demanding than having sex with the guy. I'm not saying that the girl is lying if she still says "I'm a dancer" instead of "I'm a hooker" when someone asks her what she does - but I do think it is hopelessly stupid if she believes that taking less money makes her less of a hooker. Just out of curiosity though - would you think that a secretary who occasionally had sex for money (like as in cash for service, not a boyfriend that gives her presents) would be equally non-delusional?

    (I hope it goes without saying that none of the foregoing is meant to imply that I think these strippers are "better" than prostitutes. In some ways, I respect prostitutes more for being braver and more upfront. I just think Evan and Jenny are being a bit unfair here.)
    I wouldn't say that prostitutes are either braver or more upfront. I think they definitely have point though, in that a guy can't walk in and sample them for the price of a beer. I mean, he has to buy all the way the first time. This is one of the reasons they don't think we're bright. And really, I think I was the harsh one.
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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I do think it is hopelessly stupid if she believes that taking less money makes her less of a hooker. Just out of curiosity though - would you think that a secretary who occasionally had sex for money (like as in cash for service, not a boyfriend that gives her presents) would be equally non-delusional?
    I know a cute nurse who felt that very selective "dating" at less than market value was different than hooking. And she's right. There's a combination of feelings and wanting something if you can't be with the guy.

    This is the weakness of the stripclub business model. Some girls have to be themselves with real feelings, including infatuation and low self-esteem.

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    I know a cute nurse who felt that very selective "dating" at less than market value was different than hooking. And she's right. There's a combination of feelings and wanting something if you can't be with the guy.

    This is the weakness of the stripclub business model. Some girls have to be themselves with real feelings, including infatuation and low self-esteem.
    Okay so "wanting something if you can't be with the guy" - right now we're supposing that a woman who really, really likes a guy but can't have him, is going to, instead, occasionally fuck him for money, at a discount. Am I the only one to whom that particular model does not make sense? If you want the guy but can't have him and you are evidently not the kind of person to just buck the fuck up and move on, then go ahead and fuck him (although I think we can already safely assume that the guy who doesn't want her is probably not going to want her more afterwards). And you want to charge him for this? Alllriiight.... I don't see how cash comes into that situation, but whatever. I don't know everything. Finally - you are going to charge him at a bargain basement discount... yeah, okay I see this. Because he will probably respect you more if you are a CHEAP hooker.... hmm. Yeah, I'm still lost here.

    Secondly - we can suppose that in fact these girls who are fucking at ridiculously discounted rates are doing it, not because they are stupid (my first contention) or because they are drunk (my second) or because it is actually (for whatever reason) the best they can command (my third) but because they have low self esteem... yeah, that sounds better. Very well - I am willing to add a fourth contention - that she has low self-esteem and therefore doesn't BELIEVE that she can command any better.

    By the way - are you implying above that they girls who actually fuck at the going rate, or god forbid, just dance at the going rate (oh, I'm sorry - if we are doing away with euphemisms - "grind on guys cocks" at the going rate) are the one's NOT "being themselves"? Like, somehow, being the slightest bit savvy and getting the market value for your service adds up to duplicitous character?
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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Not wishing to oversimplify but, again, sex for money is sex for money. The selection process of either the buyer or the seller is pretty much irrelevant once the act is taking place or when the bill is being paid. Many participants on both the buying and the selling side try and find ways to justify their actions in order to feel less like a "whore" or a "loser who has to pay for sex". If some choose to use the amount charged for the act as an indicator of how severe the act may be that's their business. It's stupid logic but that works for some people.

    The act of exchanging sex for money is prostitution as far as the dictionary is concerned. Legalities and moral implications aside that's what it is - weather you are a streetwalker, a call girl, an escort, a dancer who does OTC, a dancer who does FS in VIP or a dental hygienist who meets clients in hotel rooms (don't laugh, it happened to me and she was really good).

    I wouldn't consider any one group of women who engage in prostitution to be any braver or smarter than another. Dancers get stalked every day by "normal" customers. Many escorts demand extensive "real life" contact info on their customers and check an ID as soon as you walk in the door. I have a dancer friend who meats guys for sex without even knowing their last names
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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    The kind of strippers we're talking about here, in contrast, will only "date" guys they affirmatively choose to (for whatever reason -- I'm not supporting some customers' delusional posts here that it's all about their sexual magnetism).
    Yeah, I was afraid that post could be misunderstood.

    The point of that post was different, anyway -- to emphasize that a customer's "failure" in the real world was responsible for a certain hostility manifested toward other customers inside the club. This was a subtle psychological observation that I should have explained more clearly.

    On the broader subject, it might be helpful to clarify our terms when discussing OTC activities.

    "Date" = Pay for Play (MW's catch and release program, for example). Money is one of the primary factors here, but as you and others have pointed out, it's not the only one. Familiarity, sense of connection, and yes, sexual magnetism, curiosity and dramatic tension are all at work, too.

    Date = No pay, No way. A "real" date. Here, there is an inverse relationship between money and the degree to which the relationship is "real." (Insert obligatory "you pay one way or the other" comment here). It's probably fair to say that sexual magnetism plays a much stronger role here.

    Now these two concepts are usually parallel lines -- they do not intersect -- but maybe I'm just trying to convince myself of this because of the bizarro world implications of a massive collision between the two universes.

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    I know a cute nurse who felt that very selective "dating" at less than market value was different than hooking. And she's right. There's a combination of feelings and wanting something if you can't be with the guy.
    Um, yeah, whatever definition she wants to apply is fine if it helps her when she looks in the mirror. The act is what it is however.


    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    This is the weakness of the stripclub business model. Some girls have to be themselves with real feelings, including infatuation and low self-esteem.
    There is no weakness in the business model Sporty. The breakdown is in people and in human nature. The model works - strip clubs and their owners make money. The dancer model may have to be a bit different since, unlike the fat bald owner in the back room counting the money, the dancer actually has to market herself to the guys out on the floor with cash in their hands. Lots of different approaches work and real feelings can be one of them. Unfortunately infatuation and low self-esteem usually don't work....at least, not for the dancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Okay so "wanting something if you can't be with the guy" - right now we're supposing that a woman who really, really likes a guy but can't have him, is going to, instead, occasionally fuck him for money, at a discount. Am I the only one to whom that particular model does not make sense?
    You understand the obverse model: a RIL knows a dancer has a BF, but he offers lots of money to occasionally take her to dinner. Does that particular model make sense? Yes, if you understand the social psychology of the decision.

    You might say the RIL should "just buck the fuck up" and find an alternative at the market price (but NOT, God forbid, below the market price).

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggieed
    Well, the 2-3 bill range for OTC isn't a myth based on my own personal experience and the experience of other guys I trust (of which there are only a small handful). I've paid two before (several times in fact with my last ATF ranging in "time" of 2-4 hours), was once quoted $250 for 1.5 hours by another (but never went through with it), and recently negotiated 3 bills with one dancer (but then got cold feet, so to speak, when I realized that most others were paying in the 2-250 range with that dancer...stupid me, especially since I was actually kinda proud that I negotiated down from the original 5 bills she quoted me...that and some other issues had me ignoring her phone calls. )
    I was talking about myself personally, and what I've been able to charge, not the skanks from Joy that you fuck (not that I'm any less a skank than they are, just a more costly skank ). And I can't believe you got cold feet over 50 fucking bucks. If you want to screw a chick and get a reasonable rate, then go for it. I think you like saving money more than you like sex with women. What do they call your type, stingysexuals?

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    ^^^
    Okay, but you are right now mixing up the supplier and the consumer. You can't screw around with that dynamic and expect it to make sense.

    And it is perfectly normal for the consumer (the RIL or the prostitute's client) to seek out something below the market rate. For him (or her) that would be called a "deal." That is why I didn't say that the client in question was stupid or drunk for offering below market value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    You understand the obverse model: a RIL knows a dancer has a BF, but he offers lots of money to occasionally take her to dinner. Does that particular model make sense? Yes, if you understand the social psychology of the decision.

    You might say the RIL should "just buck the fuck up" and find an alternative at the market price (but NOT, God forbid, below the market price).
    That's why he's RIL, because he's an idiot. I place him at the same level of stupidity as I do Miss J and any other dancer who consistently undercuts in terms of extras or OTC. Both parties are deluded, because they aren't honest with themselves about their goals. But everyone is receiving at least some benefit for a short time, until said RIL walks into the stripclub and mows down the dancer and half the staff. THAT'S when things get sticky......

    I don't need to repeat myself to you Sporty, you are totally without clue, but I think you'll be ok, and some young women are profiting decently from your good intentions, so I'll let you live this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    ^^^
    Okay, but you are right now mixing up the supplier and the consumer. You can't screw around with that dynamic and expect it to make sense.

    And it is perfectly normal for the consumer (the RIL or the prostitute's client) to seek out something below the market rate. For him (or her) that would be called a "deal." That is why I didn't say that the client in question was stupid or drunk for offering below market value.
    Huh? Let me make my example more concrete:

    Suppose the consumer (RIL) offer the supplier (dancer) $1000 to go to a fine restaurant with him, because she has a BF and he knows he has to pay more than market rate to get the "date." Is he stupid or drunk? Does he have low self-esteem? Suppose he's worth $20 million?

    Suppose a dancer bakes cookies and brings some in a bag for me. Is that an act of affection or is she stupid? Should I think of her as a kind person or a pathetic loser? How does it work in Jenny's world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    Huh? Let me make my example more concrete:

    Suppose the consumer (RIL) offer the supplier (dancer) $1000 to go to a fine restaurant with him, because she has a BF and he knows he has to pay more than market rate to get the "date." Is he stupid or drunk? Does he have low self-esteem? Suppose he's worth $20 million?

    Suppose a dancer bakes cookies and brings some in a bag for me. Is that an act of affection or is she stupid? Should I think of her as a kind person or a pathetic loser? How does it work in Jenny's world?
    I'm not Jenny, but I'm giving you my opinion anyway. Your cookie analogy is logically flawed. I'll let Jenny explain its weakness since I'm really tired of this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine
    I was talking about myself personally, and what I've been able to charge, not the skanks from Joy that you fuck (not that I'm any less a skank than they are, just a more costly skank ). And I can't believe you got cold feet over 50 fucking bucks. If you want to screw a chick and get a reasonable rate, then go for it. I think you like saving money more than you like sex with women. What do they call your type, stingysexuals?
    You liked writing that...makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, does it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggieed
    You liked writing that...makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, does it?
    I'm only mean to you because you refuse to meet me in real life. I feel rejected. You've won. Really. {extends olive branch}

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggieed
    ...recently negotiated 3 bills with one dancer (but then got cold feet, so to speak, when I realized that most others were paying in the 2-250 range with that dancer...stupid me, especially since I was actually kinda proud that I negotiated down from the original 5 bills she quoted me...that and some other issues had me ignoring her phone calls.
    That's the kind of honesty that makes SCJ great.

    If a dancer makes an offer, I always negotiate as if I know her lowest rate, then I use some ridiculous number as a deal breaker.

    Me: "You did a lawyer for $100."
    Dancer: "No I didn't. I swear to God I didn't."

    You always have to break off negotiations in the first round. Then she wonders who's telling stories about her. You get lots of interesting confessions that way, which is almost more fun than the act.

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    They should be paying a lot more to these girls just for the hurl factor. hmmm, maybe a new catch phrase for unattractive men. On the Hurl Factor Scale he is a 9.

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    But that's my point, Delany.

    The girls I'm talking about, through selectivity, get to minimize or even eliminate the Hurl Factor (for them).

    (And to be clear, I'm not saying they find the guys they choose to "date" wildly attractive -- just not repulsive.)

    So why shouldn't they charge less than an ordinary prostitute, who doesn't get to be so selective?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Just out of curiosity though - would you think that a secretary who occasionally had sex for money (like as in cash for service, not a boyfriend that gives her presents) would be equally non-delusional?
    It depends. If she was extremely selective, and only had sex for cash with a few guys she could convince herself she "liked" on some level, then yeah I think she'd be equally non-delusional.

    Please note I'm not saying these women are COMPLETELY non-delusional. Only that I don't think the distinction they're drawing is one without a difference.

    Here's a better way to put it, stolen from a guy named Wwanderer posting on another board. Everybody gets all up in arms saying that as soon as a woman accepts cash for sex, she's a prostitute, as if that proves some point. But you can correctly categorize both a tiger and a house tabby as "felines". All the important and useful information, however, lies in what makes them different, not in whatever similarities they may have.

    Finally, I never said that charging less than the market makes someone less a prostitute. Maybe someone else did. Although I do think these girls see themselves as getting both monetary and non-monetary compensation, which I think makes them feel less like full-out prostitutes. (OK: I know you and Delany and Evan and others will think I'm being deluded.)
    Last edited by Rath; 09-05-2005 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rath
    I do think these girls see themselves as getting both monetary and non-monetary compensation, which I think makes them feel less like full-out prostitutes.
    Hooters waitresses are JV strippers. Strippers who "date" customers selectively are JV prostitutes. Whatever.

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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    I've never paid a woman for sex who called HERSELF a prostitute-this includes real pros, OTC dancers and a few civilians in between. The difference between a $300 an hour escort and a dancer or any other non-full timer is simply that the escort is not trying to fool herself about who she is or what she does for a living.

    We could argue for days-and probably will-about when a woman crosses the line from engaging in acts of prostitution to BEING a prostitute. I don't think the definition is all that important. What is important is that no one involved is fooling themselves about what they are involved in. I think that, long term, the head-games and denial can do more damage than the acts performed.
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    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
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    Double team! 2 latinas with big tits!!

  23. #198
    Featured Member Moneywise's Avatar
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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Oh this cross is killing me.


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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    The sun is baking my blood.


  25. #200
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    Default Re: MW's HG OTC

    Damn! I go on a little roadie and return to 4 more pages debating the finer points of my HG. This thread has officially given me the heebie jeebies.

    Yes Sporty. The nails through my wrists & ankles are beginning to sting a bit.

    If you all have issues with this HG wait until I type out what happened to me at 1:17am EST today. Most call it Labor Day. It lived up to its reputation for me personally. On Sunday morning I made a trip east to take care of some family business. I've just driven 10 hours back home from my other home on the east coast and am dog tired.

    I arrived Sunday evening around 6pm. After spending some time with family I went out alone at around 12 midnight. I made it back to my mother's house to rest my head at 4am. I was back up at 9am and on the road by 9:30 after having a nice home cooked breakfast. Between 1:17am and 3:02am something happened that totally blew mind.

    Hmm? Why the precise times? I'll let the blue site vets answer that one. For now I need to rest my head. It has truly been a long day. However, something happened this morning that made a 10 hour drive home feel like 8.

    HG forthcoming. Just when I thought nothing could ever top the rush of hooking up with Ms. J...

    (readying my defenses for the barrage that will follow this HG)

    I'll be posting it in the "official" HG section created by Chili. The weirdness of the growing pages in this thread prevent me from posting any HGs here. This HG doesn't involves the pope.. oops I mean P... so it shouldn't ruffle too many feathers.


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