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Thread: Why is this?

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    Default Why is this?

    December 31, 2003 the prison population in Illinois reached 43,418. K-12 Public Schools students (2001-2002) enrollment reached 2,068,182 in Illinois.
    I don't know about all the schools in Illinois but mine did not have air conditioning. EVERY prison in Illinois has air conditioning.

    WHY ARE PRISONERS TREADED BETTER THAN THE KIDS OF THIS STATE OR ANYWHERE FOR THAT MATTER? They also get full medical and dental, I live by the law and work 40+ hours a week and I don't get it paid in full. What's wrong with the people in charge of this country? This is not to bash any ONE republican or democrat. Illinois is a Democrat state, they are " for the people" but Bush don't want any child left behind. Why can't they come together and fix problems instead of complicating them?
    Last edited by big_daddy; 09-14-2005 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Added ---the and prison.
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    God/dess Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    So maybe if I get arrested I can get health insurance? Becuase as a hard working person who busted my ass in school for years I sure can't because I am a contractor. And yeah, I had no A/C in high school myself.

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    Default Re: Why is this?

    I'm with ya bigdaddy. Prisoners have too much time on their hands to read law books and learn how to sue the state, IMO.

    I attended schools in SEVERAL states, and remember SEVERAL classes without AC. It's not just AC and healthcare, it's alot of things. Better access to books/media/therapy/job training in some cases; three squares a day; tv/videos/entertainment; exercise facilities; on and on.

    I think it royally sucks that our criminals have it better than tons of working, law-abiding citizens and kids. Criminals getting thrown back on repeat offenses shortly after release in order to return to the cushy prison lifestyle has long been a well-documented phenomenon. I have to say I applaud the Maricopa County Sherriff (AZ, Phoenix metro) for his hardass policies in regards to prisoner treatment - he makes the guys wear shit uniforms, sleep in tents and bust ass, saying he'd rather make it a place they DON'T want to come back to....

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    This 'phenomenon' begins with the fact that prisoners legally become 'wards' of the state. This makes the state responsible/liable for damages if prisoners are 'mistreated'. Add to that a liberal judiciary and political elite who, subconsciously at least, view criminals as 'victims of society' or 'underpriveleged' first and as worthless scumbags second. On top of it all add the fact that the criminals, their families and their friends/associates are all registered voters. Throw in a pinch of unlimited time/law libraries/free legal help/free college courses, and there you go.

    On the other hand schoolchildren are wards of their parents, legally speaking, so schools are less likely to face mistreatment lawsuits and damage awards. Also, most parents do not have unlimited time/free resources available to them to use the judicial system to their advantage against a school system. Plus students can't vote.

    I also applaud Maricopa County's efforts to make 'doing time' the unpleasant experience our founding fathers intended it to be. But this is the exception rather than the rule. In 'liberal' states, the experience of 'doing time' as a first offender (minimum security) ain't all that bad - there are actually five state/county prisons in my county and the courts are jammed full of prison appeals/lawsuits.

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    Veteran Member TJAndDani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Prisons need to take a cue from leavenworth. Where you break big rocks into little rocks all day. And thats it. They dont have to call you by name, you are simply known as prisoner.

    I hate the judicial system here. I got in trouble once, i got the maximum punishment and it was my first offense EVER. So I appealed it, got another judge he reviewed the previous case looked at me and said, "I'm sorry our judicial system treated you so unfairly. No young man with an excellent record that you have should be punished in such a manner on charges that i see no real evidence for. Have a good day sir, your slate is clean."

    I know alot of people that would say well they should go into the military. A troublemaker will always be a troublemaker. You might have 1% that would actually do good but thats not worth the trouble the other 99% will do. And we cant have them learning how to make IED's and using C4.

    Have you tried calling your state representatives on this? I would let them know.

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    Default Re: Why is this?

    I think being in a closed area with some of the worst criminal elements who are ROYALLY PISSED OFF that they were caught and had their freedom taken away and being subjected to the overworked, sometimes sadistic, custody police (guards), that is punishment enough. Of course we could try to find a Devils Island and drop them all off there to fend for themselves. Or maybe we've already done that.
    Point is - does our society want to punish everyone or reform everyone, or is it even able to distinguish between those who would get either treatment? Judging from most of the stupidity I see in our justice system, best thing to do is not ever to get yourself in a position to be subjected to that - AC and books or not.
    Last edited by threlayer; 09-16-2005 at 09:15 AM. Reason: confusing typos
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Definitely makes you think. I wonder if the prison guards are paid more than teachers also. I've always had a problem with the way the government overlooks the school system. It's so sad that our teacher's, who prep us for the future, don't get paid that much and don't get good benefits. A lot of them take on summer jobs so they can make ends meet.

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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    I have to say I applaud the Maricopa County Sherriff (AZ, Phoenix metro) for his hardass policies in regards to prisoner treatment - he makes the guys wear shit uniforms, sleep in tents and bust ass, saying he'd rather make it a place they DON'T want to come back to....
    Thumbs up to Sheriff Joe! Tent City is one place I DEFINATELY don't want to go in the middle of July or August (or any month of the year for that matter).




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    Featured Member DSUsb19's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    The A/C in my highschool was, and still is on the fritz, according to my mom, who works there. The sad thing is, it costs $20,000 a year to attend this university, and 4 of my 5 classes have no A/C. I have majors classes in a building built in the 1930's, and the classes are scheduled to have 90-100 studnts in a room big enough for 35.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    I know a guard at Stateville Prison in IL (max security prison)...he's been there for a few years and makes A LOT more than nost teachers do after 5-10 years. Granted, it's a more life-threatening job than teachers, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's as hard as teaching. Teachers AND students deserve a lot more. Many Chicago Public Schools are ridiculously bad schools and even though most of their overall test scores are 'improving', they are still very low. In fact, many CPS teachers, principals and administrators do not send their kids to public school.

    As far as prisoners go, a female relative of mine was in prison for about 3-4 years....during that time, she got her GED AND her Associates Degree (from a pretty pretigious university that has a deal with program with this prison) ALL FOR FREE!!







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    Default Re: Why is this?

    I believe I read somewhere that prison guards DO make a fair bit more than teachers in general. No time to find stats, but I'm sure they're out there if anyone cares to take a look. Yes I do think that's backwards - risky job or not, our teachers should be better compensated for their work. Perhaps if they were paid better we'd attract more qualified teachers. Duh!

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Not intending to slam teachers, but when you get right down to bean counting most teachers have extremely good compensation in terms of salary plus benefits given the number of hours that they actually work per year. 9 weeks off in the summer - 1 1/2 weeks off at Christmas - another 1 1/2 weeks off at Spring Break - plus every single holiday off, major and minor. Average this out over an entire year, and an experienced teacher with an established lesson plan winds up working the same number of actual hours per week as a 'part time' employee.

    On the other hand, besides the fact that the work involves close contact with lots of people who would kill without hesitation if given the chance, maximum security prison guards definitely work 'full time' hours - plus weekends plus holidays plus overtime. Thus any comparison between the two occupations constitutes 'apples and oranges'.

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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Aw Mel, I hate it when you ruin our emotional rantings with your confounded logic!!

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Mel - I agree that comparing the two is pointless. However things to keep in mind: teachers require more education and a higher skill level than prison guards. Teachers are (in theory) meant to keep themselves up to date with seminars, more degrees, etc. Teachers also spend a great deal of time doing things like marking and prep work. They also spend a lot of time on extra-curriculars - coaching the basketball team, etc, heading the yearbook, conducing the choir. And, of course, they are ideally NOT using the SAME lesson plan every year. They are meant to keep up to date. If you work out how much time most teachers spend actually working in a given week, the holidays may start to seem like a reasonable perk. I realize that not all teachers are that dedicated, and that some may barely scrape by. But a surprising percentage of my teachers in high school regularly worked up to 12 hours in the school alone.

    The reason prison guards are paid as well as they are is, essentially, danger pay. What they do is very low skill and involves no education and little training. If they demanded that all prison guards have degrees in social work or psychology (which would probably be good for everyone, really) there may be more argument for a raise.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    You're right, Melonie...we do get the time off, and college instructors make a killing for the time we put in. Money is not the reason I teach though. I worked for 25 years as a Petroleum Engineer so I don't need the money.

    I do a lot of extracurricular work for which I do not get paid, but I have no complaints. I actually enjoy working with the kids at the high school, and they have the only teacher in America who does Marlon Brando and Popeye impressions.

    I would say that prison guards and police have it much worse. I had two uncles who were with the Texas Dept of Public Safety and, in fact, were Rangers. The hours were long, the money was pitiful, but there was nothing else they would rather do.

    Enough rambling. Reading the thread reminded me of an incident about ten years ago in Oklahoma.

    A Death Row inmate attempted suicide a couple of days before his scheduled execution. The guards revived him, and got him to a hospital for emergency treatment. They did manage to get him back in time for the execution. Taxpayer dollars at work.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    I have 2 close friends that are guards and they say by 2007 they will be up to $37 an hour. They also get like 20 some payed days off. So yes they make a hell of a lot more than teachers.
    "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny

    The reason prison guards are paid as well as they are is, essentially, danger pay. What they do is very low skill and involves no education and little training. If they demanded that all prison guards have degrees in social work or psychology (which would probably be good for everyone, really) there may be more argument for a raise.
    You must not know any prison guards!
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    No. But I do know that it doesn't require special education or training. I know that they don't need specialized skills. And teachers do. In this society, right or wrong, we tend to think that salary is, at least in part, commesurate with expertise, education and training.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    In this society, right or wrong, we tend to think that salary is, at least in part, commesurate with expertise, education and training
    I would again offer an alternate observation that salary, at least in part, is commesurate with on the job risk factors as well as 'supply vs demand' for willing workers. This is why prison guards, lumberjacks, coal miners etc. earn $30+ an hour, because on the job risks are high and not that many people are willing to do the work.

    In the 'world economy' there are lots of people with expertise, education and training who would gladly accept a computer, teaching, or other white collar job - which is the reason that a lot of white collar work has already been outsourced. Now the second wave is underway i.e. H1B visa workers coming to the USA from India etc. These H1B visa immigrants are professionals with college degrees and experience, but are also willing to work for $10-$15 an hour. These H1B visa immigrants are headed towards teaching jobs, computer jobs and other white collar jobs - not prison guard work, felling giant trees, or digging for coal 1/4 mile underground.

    IMHO the 'old paradigm' that if anyone in America gets a college education that they will be 'set for life' afterwards has now become not only inaccurate but dangerously flawed. Think of how many Americans invested tens of thousands of dollars in tuition plus four years of their lives to obtain IT degrees in the 90's, only to see their earnings potential gutted by outsourcing. H1B visa policies are slowly allowing the same thing to happen to other white collar professions where the 'work' cannot be outsourced. US school systems under heavy budget pressure basically have two options ... raise property taxes on residents sky high to continue to provide NEA union wages and benefits to US teachers, or begin hiring H1B teachers. Like the airline industry or the auto industry or even Starbucks ( see ) at some point an economic reality attack will occur.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-16-2005 at 02:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    No. But I do know that it doesn't require special education or training. I know that they don't need specialized skills. And teachers do. In this society, right or wrong, we tend to think that salary is, at least in part, commesurate with expertise, education and training.
    So you KNOW that they don't need to know how to protect themselves? Or how to read gangs or how to look for shanks or anything else that can kill them or other inmates? They don't need to know how to take someone down that want's to kill them? So what your saying is that prison guards don't need any kind of skills at all? Do they need the same kind of skills a teacher needs? No, but teachers these days need to know the skills of a prison guard. A lot of colleges are giving classes on prison guards, If you KNEW a prison guard you would know that they are the same as a cop but only at a prison. They have to know a lot of laws, some even have to have a Criminal Justice degree. They also take a 6 or 12 week course at the state police academy.
    Last edited by big_daddy; 09-16-2005 at 04:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    ok i may be going out on a limb here, but...i think that "prisoners" should be treated HUMANE. most of the people in there are in there for non-violent crimes, you know like pot, or getting caught driving while suspendid a few times. It's not like there animals, they need respect also, some made mistakes, granted, yes the school system could use an air conditioning, but so do people in prison.

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    Featured Member GnBeret's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Although the level of care undoubtedly varies from state to state, there's nothing to be envious about insofar as the free medical and dental care that are provided to prisoners in the systems I've seen goes... it's about on par with what I've seen in the poorer parts of Africa, Central & South America, and the Middle East. Basically, because they're prisoners and medical treatment costs $$$, they're provided the absolute minimum that the system can manage to get away with providing - which usually equates to only being provided treatment when a condition becomes severe and/or in an emergency type situation, and even then it's most often provided in an unsanitary and substandard facility by a "doctor" that every med-mal lawyer in town would characterize as a "butcher" were he in private practice. And, yes, while they can and have sued for relief on numerous occasions, if you take a look at the evidence in those cases where they actually managed to prevail such that the Federal Court stepped in and ordered the state to provide better treatment, you'll be appalled at just how bad it has to get before the courts will grant them any relief.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by tootsie
    ok i may be going out on a limb here, but...i think that "prisoners" should be treated HUMANE. most of the people in there are in there for non-violent crimes, you know like pot, or getting caught driving while suspendid a few times. It's not like there animals, they need respect also, some made mistakes, granted, yes the school system could use an air conditioning, but so do people in prison.
    You are speaking of the minimum security and prison camp crowd. There is also the drunk tank and the city jail. Those people I agree with you.

    There is another crowd in maximum security and super-max security. Just a step above barbarian some these people are.

    Multiple count killers, abusers, assaulters, rapists, and border-line psychopaths. Think of the gang-thugs shown here ( and then click "view video") - do you think you can reason with these guys if they think they have the upper hand? Or do you have to mace them, put their face in the floor and a knee in their back to shackle them - and then they listen!

    Sometimes you cannot interact with these people in a civil manner - that is why they are in cages to begin with.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by big_daddy
    So you KNOW that they don't need to know how to protect themselves? Or how to read gangs or how to look for shanks or anything else that can kill them or other inmates? They don't need to know how to take someone down that want's to kill them? So what your saying is that prison guards don't need any kind of skills at all? Do they need the same kind of skills a teacher needs? No, but teachers these days need to know the skills of a prison guard. A lot of colleges are giving classes on prison guards, If you KNEW a prison guard you would know that they are the same as a cop but only at a prison. They have to know a lot of laws, some even have to have a Criminal Justice degree. They also take a 6 or 12 week course at the state police academy.
    You're misunderstanding me. When I say a job is low skilled I mean that the job requirements do not include any special skills or training. A prison guard does not need any special training in self-defense for example (you point out that guards need to defend themselves, but it is not a qualification. You don't need any training in that arena to get the job. I just checked the union agreement). That is not me making an evaluation of the job, or me saying that it is an easy job; and it's not really contentious. And, unfortunate though it may be, prison guarding, as a position, involves less training than policing. Knowing a prison guard is not going to change these facts.

    Mel - that is not an alternate view. That goes without saying. In fact when I said that prison guards were getting "danger pay" that is exactly what I was talking about (so I guess I still said it). I was simply pointing out reasonable points about teacher's salaries, comparatively.
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    Default Re: Why is this?

    I see.......but they do get trained.
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