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Thread: Are strippers people????

  1. #26
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    Forgive any typos or grammatical lapses here; I'm on my third day of fighting a fever.

    None of us have to read this book to know where the story is going:

    Rejection, villification and demonization of the pursuit of sexuality by women in the same vein as that pursued by men, the nature of male sexuality ostensibly being inherently oppressive, degrading and misogynistic.

    Not like we haven't heard this before from all the familiar quarters.

    b) that, frequently, (and everyone is going to hate me for this one, but...) sometimes subjects are not truly aware of their own oppression (either in the personal or political/social sense). Women in Kenya (and please keep in mind that this analogy is only to clearly illustrate that people can be unaware of their own oppression, and not to analogize the actual oppression) frequently didn't see brutal female genital mutiliation as oppressive. But any reasonable person, with any personal distance can see that it is.
    It's this line of thinking that is a slap in the face to the concepts of intelligence, free will, and free enterprise among women. I won't dispute that some people aren't oppressed without their explicit knowledge, but that's a pretty friggin' broad spectrum. Is the office manager oppressed because he/she sits in traffic for an hour each way to work and then has to endure incompetent upper management?

    Books like this are written entirely on the basis of potential sales. I can hear the pitch meeting to the editor in my head. "Middle-aged women, angry and alienated from popular culture and unhappy with their daughters' rejection of their own beliefs will eat this book up. They account for almost all impulse buys in bookstores, and over 60% of the market itself." Sold.
    Exactly. They're capitalizing on the insecurity and bitterness of TOO's said demographic that are already predisposed to viewing in a completely negative light women that possess and demonstrate an expressive and expansive definition of sexuality, as if these women are a threat to their own existence. The fact these women (strippers, escorts, models, et al) are engaged in an act of overt commerce is practically irrelevant to the larger issue for the "aggrieved" audience.

    If Levy and her counterparts allowed themselves to see the humanity in sex workers, they'd have to admit their own sexually repressed character traits that have made them so averse to the acceptance and embrace of expressive female sexuality in the first place.
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    None of us have to read this book to know where the story is going:
    Well, certainly we've all been commenting based on what Nic has told us, and not upon reading the book itself. But surely we can agree that reading the book is... well, helpful in knowing where the story is going?

    It's this line of thinking that is a slap in the face to the concepts of intelligence, free will, and free enterprise among women.
    The fact that people can be unaware of their own oppression is a slap in the face to free enterprise? Specifically the fact that some women in Kenya don't see brutal female circumsicion as oppressive is a slap in the face to intelligence? I admit, I had not thought of that. Um. Come to think of it... do you think you could explain how that makes sense?

    I won't dispute that some people aren't oppressed without their explicit knowledge, but that's a pretty friggin' broad spectrum. Is the office manager oppressed because he/she sits in traffic for an hour each way to work and then has to endure incompetent upper management?
    Well, I agree that it's a wildly broad spectrum, and I think I paid heed to that in my post. As for your example - I don't understand it. You seem to be equating unpleasantness with oppression. Or at least, that is how it seems to me. I don't see the oppressive element in your example, although I do see how it would be unenjoyable.

    Exactly. They're capitalizing on the insecurity and bitterness of TOO's said demographic that are already predisposed to viewing in a completely negative light women that possess and demonstrate an expressive and expansive definition of sexuality, as if these women are a threat to their own existence. The fact these women (strippers, escorts, models, et al) are engaged in an act of overt commerce is practically irrelevant to the larger issue for the "aggrieved" audience.
    Yeah, and I bet they are all ugly and jealous.

    If Levy and her counterparts allowed themselves to see the humanity in sex workers, they'd have to admit their own sexually repressed character traits that have made them so averse to the acceptance and embrace of expressive female sexuality in the first place.
    Don't you think that is a bit of a daring and, frankly, ridiculous statement? Levy examines the women who are engaging in the consumer end of the sex trade - based on the discussion that we've had, we are assuming that she is dealing with heterosexual women who are not heading to the club with a sexual agenda, no matter how benign. She is also examining stripperchic on society and looking at a social double standard. You may intelligently disagree with her contention (as several people have). You may criticize her methodology (as, I believe, everyone has) but do you really think it is legitimate to simply dismiss the work as a result of her sexual repression (which you have no real reason to believe she has, except the rather circular mode in which you are dismissing her in the first place)? That seems... remarkably closed minded to me.

    And by the way - which counterparts? I cannot, offhand, think of another book that deals with female customers in the sex trade.

    And TOO - tell me, please, I beg you, that you are not embracing the common wisdom of Camille Paglia? Because, you know, she also compares rape to being hit (Rolling Stone) and argues, in her most contentious essay, pretty forcefully for the de facto sexual suppression of women through intimidation and fear (of the "there is no excuse for rape, except these..." variety).
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  3. #28
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    One thing that really pisses me off is how people crap on about the high level of sexual abuse amongst sex workers. Last time I checked (and I have checked out various figures a few times over the years...) the figures were EXACTLY the same as for women in any other profession! Unfortunatly there is a high level of sexual abuse period, no if's no buts. Survivors end up everywhere, not unproportionally in our workplace. It seems people just like to use the figures against women in the sex and related industry for their convenience. Fucking shits me bigtime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  4. #29
    madmaxine
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    If you read this thread, please don't buy this woman's book. She knows where her next meal is coming from- her thinking is the majority view in the US.
    INSTEAD, but the book "Why Men Are The Way They Are" by Warren Farrell, PhD (also the author of The Myth of Male Power.) Your brain will thank you.
    Some might say this man's viewpoint is dated (the book was first published in 1986) but he makes many valid points about the socialization of men & women.

    OK, here's MY rant- women like her give me a headache and so I try to ignore them because I like headaches as much as I like them. And no, I'm not defending male behavior. What do I think? If you want some intelligent ENTERTAINING discourse from a woman, see the works of Patti Smyth, Lydia Lunch or Chryssy Hynde.

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    Veteran Member jessica_rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    i think it just goes to show that womens' facination with strippers is often more perverse then mens'. Why DO women come into the strip club? And what conclusions do they draw when they leave?

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    And TOO - tell me, please, I beg you, that you are not embracing the common wisdom of Camille Paglia? Because, you know, she also compares rape to being hit (Rolling Stone) and argues, in her most contentious essay, pretty forcefully for the de facto sexual suppression of women through intimidation and fear (of the "there is no excuse for rape, except these..." variety).
    [Part I of II -- having trouble with long posts]

    Jenny, I'm not sure what essay you are referring to, but Camille arguing for the sexual suppression of women (de facto or de jure) would be like Marx arguing for the economic suppression of the proletariat. I'd certainly like to read the piece and see if our interpretations of it converge.

    I'm not in agreement with Camille across the board, but I do like her forceful, take-no-prisoners defense of empowering female sexuality. She takes no shit from anybody. In terms of style at least, does that remind you of anybody in particular?

    It's also helpful to keep in mind that the nature of iconoclasts is to throw Molotov cocktails. It helps them maintain public visibility and keep skin in the debate. It takes only one clever turn of phrase with a reporter to have their name appear in hundreds of newspapers or to have the bookers calling their agents. Camille knows this.

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    Part II of II

    And no, I do not consider the rape quote to be a clever turn of phrase. My point here is to discourage people from taking Rolling Stone or other media quotes too seriously on their face. There is usually another backstory or a different context informing the quote. At the very least, such quotes should be weighed against the entire body of scholarship or commentary. As you know, Camille is a professor and very serious social historian. She also considers herself to be an "alternative feminist" with a viewpoint that is nearly the polar opposite of Levy's. That makes it a useful touchstone in this discussion.


    As I said in my original post, my sense from Nic's comments is that this book wrote itself in the proposal stage. The theory seems to be driving the evidence, not the other way around. I can't stress enough how the commercial publishing world is its own universe where demographics and perceived sales -- not facts, solid argumentation and social insight -- are what drive editors' publishing decisions. It's why so much repetitive drivel and nonsense is published. It sells. And it sells largely to people who are already in agreement with the viewpoint.


    I'm pretty much at the point where I'm going to need to read the book to speak intelligently on its content. Nic's encapsulation was helpful, but it's impossible to fairly critique a book that you haven't read.

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    From amazon:

    a pervasive raunch culture wherein women make sex objects of other women and of ourselves...It has elevated porn above sexual pleasure. Most insidiously, it has usurped the keywords of the women's movement (liberation, empowerment) to serve as buzzwords for a female sexuality that denies passion (in all its forms) and embraces consumerism...how is resurrecting every stereotype of female sexuality that feminism endeavored to banish good for women? Why is laboring to look like Pamela Anderson empowering?
    Perhaps oddly, it all seems pretty organic to me- a very natural progression down the path of feminism.

    If these opposing stereotypes are true to even a degree: the straight-laced office worker not being taken seriously because of her good looks, and the stripper living it large thanks to her looks, (and I think they are), then the embracing of 'porn culture' only makes sense. Imo, women are currently in the state of mind of embracing anything that can help them use their looks as a tool to get ahead. Anyone can ugly themselves up if that's what necessary to be taken seriously at work; it's harder to be attractive. Having both as a possibility is real power.

    Or maybe it's just me- but I sure do feel that way. I'm taken very seriously at my non-dancing work and school, and I'm the girl with glasses, baggy clothes and no makeup. I do very well at dancing, because I look good. When I interview or present myself for anything, I decide beforehand if being attractive or plain would be best. It's a fantastic tool.

    Strippers and porn stars are the 'everyday girl' version of models and actresses. We're (I feel like a dolt including myself, lol) the accessible beautiful people that are revered for their looks, but don't need great luck or great talent to 'make it'. And so, a very easy template to copy.

    I'm not saying that every girl who emulates dancers is consciously thinking about this- but it' just a natural fact that attractive people have more options, so it's pretty intuitive that girls would strive to attain that.

    While beauty (no matter if it's natural or plastic) is only really empowering if properly harnessed, I defnitely don't think it's anti-feminist to use looks to get ahead. I don't see why she's presenting an awareness of, and interest in, the power of beauty, and general empowerment, as mutually exclusive. Even girls who use looks solely to attract men are doing something pretty natural- using their looks to get what they want. We can question their dependence or need for a man, but that's different topic. Fact is, they're using their looks to reach a goal. I only see this as a problem if looks are the only way to reach goals. And I don't think this is ever the case. They're just often the easiest way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    This is, obviously, not an accurate depiction either of the past or of the present. It is, first of all, setting up a dichotomy that doesn't actually exist. Feminism was about the equality of women (I'm not sure how people get the idea that it was in fact all about "choices"). In fact, the biggest feminist criticisms of the liberal feminism of the second wave was the fact that the "equality" that women were seeking was the equality of a certain class of, mainly, white women to a certain class of, mainly, white men and that women of other classes and other races were put by the wayside. For example - the women of Friedan's "Feminine Mystique" (which is in itself property situation and located) plan to go out to work, so who is going to look after the children and cooking now? Of couse - a poor woman, frequently of a different race. Now, seeing as that IS what our mother's and grandmother's marched on Washington for, how does that inform the current question?
    What could be more equal than absolute freedom of choice?

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Ah, see, here's the thing; freedom of choice is not at issue. Because, as is particularly relevant now, nobody really has it. Nobody - or at least few enough people so that those who do are more or less irrelevant - has unlimited options before them. "Choice" is an unrealistic goal for any political movement. Putting words like "choice" and "equal" together may make a certain amount of sense on an intuitive level, but there can't be any scrutiny. For example - what is this freedom of choice being equal to? To whom is this freedom seeking to equalize itself?

    I think, really, it seems a little fey and naive (yes, at the same time, no less) to simplify feminism (which is an incredibly complicated legal concept, political movement and school of thought) into "freedom of choice." Freedom of choice is a good thing, meaning it is a pleasant thing. But feminism is approaching a construction of the world - or (because I'm in danger of being wildly ethnocentric here) of a certain part of world.
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    girls like to be neurotic. It's not enough that we have the option of gaining knowledge and intelligence, that we can balance this with healthy emotions, that we can seek other options for spiritual paths that comply with our worlds, AND that we can explore different forms of sexual expression, while find an at worst realistic means of making an independent living, at best capitalizing on the American Creed. No, Levy, that would be too EASY. No Levy, we have to find a way to make our neurotic mills churn, put all of our actions for which all the analysis before was to pave the way, hold off on that thing they call living/trying, and spit out tedious "experts" who think fear and suspicion are marks of intelligence, and who take everything seriously enough to not warrant being taken seriously.

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    Interesting thread. I wish I had more time.

    You can look at Ariel Levy's book together with Ben Shapiro's Porn Generation and Pamela Paul's Pornified (all 2005).

    All three offer insights on the way the sex industry, especially Internet porn, is changing society and relationships. It's a generation of disposable sexual relationships where nothing is expected to last. Impulse wins out over commitment every time.

    I like the exit interviews in "reality" porn where the girl says she'd see the guy again, but only for sex. Is that empowerment? Maybe if she insisted on using condoms...

    One of my favorites has a BF who would rather jerk off to porn than have sex with her. I hear complaints all the time. No one gets what they want, so they go looking for a bigger and better cock.

    I'm surprised that so many young dancers talk about encounters with cocks as if they came on bodies with no heads, or guys with no minds.

    You can put this trend in a broader perspective. Most people sit on their couches and watch sitcoms, because they aren't sexually attractive and can't play. People still work for money, and the trash gets picked up every week.
    Last edited by SportsWriter2; 10-03-2005 at 06:25 PM.

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    This fever isn't helping my response time...

    The theory seems to be driving the evidence, not the other way around. I can't stress enough how the commercial publishing world is its own universe where demographics and perceived sales -- not facts, solid argumentation and social insight -- are what drive editors' publishing decisions. It's why so much repetitive drivel and nonsense is published. It sells. And it sells largely to people who are already in agreement with the viewpoint.


    Amen. The book is preaching to the choir already by its title alone.

    Specifically the fact that some women in Kenya don't see brutal female circumsicion as oppressive is a slap in the face to intelligence? I admit, I had not thought of that. Um. Come to think of it... do you think you could explain how that makes sense?

    Well, I agree that it's a wildly broad spectrum, and I think I paid heed to that in my post. As for your example - I don't understand it. You seem to be equating unpleasantness with oppression. Or at least, that is how it seems to me. I don't see the oppressive element in your example, although I do see how it would be unenjoyable.
    Your presumption is that the women participating in circumcision are being oppressed because of your own aversion to the practice--which by our own standards is indeed barbaric and savage. Does that mean, conversely, that men being circumsized after birth in the West are being oppressed and don't know it? Or that men in tribal Africa who endure group circumcision--usually with a single blade in a single stroke (think paper cutting table), thereby sharing blood and HIV--as a rite of adulthood are being oppressed? And how are you so quick to nullify the cultural significance of female circumcision in regions that have been practicing it for centuries? I'm the last person to embrace the fallacious notion of cultural equivalency, but to look down your nose and determine for other women how and why they're being oppressed suggests extreme presumption of an elitist nature, particularly when it's generally women with the shard of broken glass that are slicing off the clits of their own daughters and nieces.

    Yeah, and I bet they are all ugly and jealous.
    Even if you're being facetious here, I agree. The economic principles of the sex industry do not register for women that are already intimidated and marginalized (even if only in their own mind) by other women with the aforementioned expansive and expressive definition of sexuality; the fact that some women seek to economically capitalize on that condition is only considered to add further vitriol to their preexisting revulsion.

    Don't you think that is a bit of a daring and, frankly, ridiculous statement? Levy examines the women who are engaging in the consumer end of the sex trade - based on the discussion that we've had, we are assuming that she is dealing with heterosexual women who are not heading to the club with a sexual agenda, no matter how benign. She is also examining stripperchic on society and looking at a social double standard.
    It's not a ridiculous statement, because Levy's quasi-theory is predicated on a false premise from the beginning--that straight women pursuing the exploration of male sexuality via a segment of the sex industry is intrinsically destructive and counterproductive to the further empowerment of women. This is what's ridiculous.

    And by the way - which counterparts? I cannot, offhand, think of another book that deals with female customers in the sex trade.
    That's the point, Jenny; the book is using the female customers as a straw man to attack the very concept of stripperchic or sex workers in general. This is no different than the anti-porn work from leftists like Dworkin and MacKinnon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Does that mean, conversely, that men being circumsized after birth in the West are being oppressed and don't know it?
    Yes. I am strongly against circumsizing male children (although I think it is stupid to pretend like losing your foreskin is equivalent to losing your clitoris - imagine instead of the foreskin them cutting off the head of the penis) for non-religious reasons. I think it is sick and wrong to assume that because a baby cannot verbalize his pain that the pain if illegitimate or non-existant. If the child grows up and really feels like a foreskin is limiting the quality of his life he can choose have it removed with appropriate anaesthetic and pain management.

    Or that men in tribal Africa who endure group circumcision--usually with a single blade in a single stroke (think paper cutting table), thereby sharing blood and HIV--as a rite of adulthood are being oppressed?
    Most certainly. Although I still think that you have a limited understanding of the difference between oppression and unpleasantness.

    And how are you so quick to nullify the cultural significance of female circumcision in regions that have been practicing it for centuries?
    I'm not. I specified brutal circumcision in Kenya. There is a spectrum there as well.

    but to look down your nose and determine for other women how and why they're being oppressed suggests extreme presumption of an elitist nature, particularly when it's generally women with the shard of broken glass that are slicing off the clits of their own daughters and nieces.
    The fact that women are doing it means nothing to my point, except to underline the fact that women don't recognize it as oppression. As for the rest of your point - that is precisely the tension that Nic and I were both outlining. Balancing the fact that people are not always particularly aware of their own circumstances with the intrinsic paternalism of ignoring their viewpoint. That is precisely what I was trying to draw attention to - do you even read my posts?

    Even if you're being facetious here, I agree. The economic principles of the sex industry do not register for women that are already intimidated and marginalized (even if only in their own mind) by other women with the aforementioned expansive and expressive definition of sexuality; the fact that some women seek to economically capitalize on that condition is only considered to add further vitriol to their preexisting revulsion.
    Okay - this is stupid. For me to take this seriously would be degrading to our joint intelligence. Allow me to simply say that dismissing a woman's opinion because of how you assume she looks is the basest form of sexism, and is (I hope) beneath you.

    And I'm interested - what do you think is "expressive" about exotic dancing? Or, for that matter, expansive? Doesn't it seem as if it is mostly just existing within the framework of male-dominated sexuality? I mean, I've read threads and posts from you detailing how all strippers should fit a certain mold - that they shouldn't be fat or tattooed or whatever. I do see the point made here that stripping CAN feel empowering - but it is downright ostrich if you can't see the flip side of it.

    It's not a ridiculous statement, because Levy's quasi-theory is predicated on a false premise from the beginning--that straight women pursuing the exploration of male sexuality via a segment of the sex industry is intrinsically destructive and counterproductive to the further empowerment of women. This is what's ridiculous.
    See, I don't see offhand what is "ridiculous" about that. I can see problematic, debatable and approaching it rational skepticism (as has been done, quite intelligently, here). I can see examining rationally from a marketing perspective (as has also been done, intelligently, here). What I can't appreciate is "she's just jealous of sex-workers because they're pretty and she's not."


    That's the point, Jenny; the book is using the female customers as a straw man to attack the very concept of stripperchic or sex workers in general. This is no different than the anti-porn work from leftists like Dworkin and MacKinnon.
    This is also stupid - to know that the book is about something other than its premise (which is what we've been debating) you would certainly have to read it. Stripperchic IS problematic - anyone that denies that is sticking their heads in the sand (witness the above paragraph in which I actually had to tell you not to judge a woman's ideas based on her appearance - or rather her assumed appearance. It obviously hasn't done you any good.) The anti-porn work by Dworkin and MacKinnon also has some good points (and, just out of curiosity, have you read it or do you just assume it's bad because they are not pretty?)
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    Another angle- North American women shouldn't complain. In many Third World countries, a woman deprived of her sexual power is the norm. If tacky behavior & mutal shallow treatment in relationships is the price to pay for women acting like men, fine. I'd die if I had to live in a society where I had to cover my face, not speak for myself and be used as a baby machine.
    Weren't people saying all these same things in the Seventies, when the results of the civil rights movement were producing true changes in female autonomy?

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    Okay, I wrote this before I'd read Jenny's latest post, which answers some of the questions I posed, but I'll go ahead and post it unrevised anyway:

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Your presumption is that the women participating in circumcision are being oppressed because of your own aversion to the practice--which by our own standards is indeed barbaric and savage. Does that mean, conversely, that men being circumsized after birth in the West are being oppressed and don't know it? Or that men in tribal Africa who endure group circumcision--usually with a single blade in a single stroke (think paper cutting table), thereby sharing blood and HIV--as a rite of adulthood are being oppressed? And how are you so quick to nullify the cultural significance of female circumcision in regions that have been practicing it for centuries? I'm the last person to embrace the fallacious notion of cultural equivalency, but to look down your nose and determine for other women how and why they're being oppressed suggests extreme presumption of an elitist nature, particularly when it's generally women with the shard of broken glass that are slicing off the clits of their own daughters and nieces.


    Okay, I was actually going to bring this up, too. I have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of "female circumcision" because my understanding is that it severely reduces sexual pleasure for women. (Does it make orgasm difficult or impossible? Does anyone know?) But people who argue against male circumcision also say that the procedure reduces male sexual pleasure significantly (though it obviously doesn't prevent orgasm).



    Is there, in fact, some difference between male and female circumcision that makes one abusive and oppressive while the other is not?



    In fact, in the book "Root of Bitterness", Nancy Cott claims that clitoridectomy was used in the West as a treatment for "nymphomania" (a primary symptom of which was masturbation.)



    This is one of my most serious problems with theorists like Dworkin, MacKinnon, and Levy (not that Levy comes anywhere near the other two in terms of pure intellect or scholarly accomplishments). While they sometimes complain that women are accused of being "frigid" if they aren't ready for sex on command, they seem to forget or ignore how viciously women have been punished throughout history for liking sex "too much," or behaving in ways that were deemed sexually inappropriate.



    I think the urge of men to punish women who seem "overly sexual" has its roots in the fear of being cuckolded--but I won't venture too far into the territory of "evolutionary psychology" here, since I know that Jenny and many others don't buy it (even if it's true ). I also think that this kind of punishment and repression has been extremely damaging to women as a whole. Of course, we see this taken to extremes in many Muslim countries even now. (Anyone read "Reading Lolita in Tehran?" One little detail I found really interesting in that book was how the radical women she knew in the U.S. in the 1970's were fighting, in part, for the right NOT to wear lipstick and be "femme", while the radical women she knew in Tehran felt oppressed by the fact that they weren't allowed to wear lipstick. )



    My understanding is that, in the 1700's in Europe, women were believed to be far more sexual than men. Victorian women strove to refute that idea and present themselves as chaste, and immune to the pleasures of the flesh, because they thought it would encourage men to take them more seriously. (I don't know though. I'm thinking back to a research paper I wrote like 18 years ago, so I could have some of my facts wrong.)



    So, in some sense, it seems that the pendulum swings back and forth. First we like sex too much, then not enough, then too much again, then again not enough. On it goes.



    Let me present one more example regarding arrogant or culture-bound judgments on "oppression" and "victimization." I never read the actual source, but I heard this from an anthropology prof, and I always thought it was fascinating:



    In a small tribe that dwells on an island in the South Pacific, the initiation ceremony of adolescent boys involves fellating the older men of the tribe and swallowing their semen. The idea is that they are becoming men by imbibing this "man juice" (as CO might say ).



    Now, in our culture, if older men did this to adolescent boys, those boys would undoubtedly be victims of abuse. HOWEVER, I'd argue that in the cultural context of this island tribe, the behavior does not constitute abuse, and the boys are not victims.



    Your thoughts?
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Oh, and just for the record, CO, Ariel Levy is not ugly. She's not drop-dead gorgeous--she wasn't wearing any makeup in the jacket photo, and she's clearly not an eyebrow plucker--but she's a perfectly attractive woman.

    (If you gussied her up a little, she could probably even be a stripper )

    I agree that the "they're ugly and jealous" argument is stupid. Let's face it: strippers look attractive at work because they use all kinds of tricks to make themselves attractive. Of course, there are some ravishing natural beauties in the biz, but a great many dancers(myself included) are fairly average-looking women who invest a lot of effort (and money!) in the quest to create a certain physical illusion while at work.

    Really, you guys have NO idea what wonders can be worked with fake eyelashes, glue-on hair extensions, spray-on tans, and a purse full of Mac makeup. Also, those 7" plats make a woman's body look completely different than it does in stocking feet. (And I haven't even mentioned plastic surgery yet.)

    My point is that practically any woman, if she were so inclined, could conceivably make herself look good enough to get a job in a strip club (really, the hiring standards at all but the most upscale clubs really aren't that stringent).

    CO, I love ya, baby, but you have to concede the fact that there really are some women--possibly even some beautiful women--who disapprove of the sex industry for reasons more substantial than just a hysterical fit of jealousy.
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    My point is that practically any woman, if she were so inclined, could conceivably make herself look good enough to get a job in a strip club.
    Baby, modesty is a wonderful quality, but it brings us no closer to the truth. You can't put lipstick and 7" plats on a pig and turn that bad girl into a fine piece of ass. As Seinfeld once said about the dating scene: "It's a leper colony out there."

    Let's face it: There is nothing in all of primate evolution to prepare the male of our species for the sublime perfection that is your ass. You've enslaved unsuspecting men just by bending over to pick up the Sunday paper. A little perspective goes a long way here...

    Meanwhile, poor CO is burning up with fever, and he's getting whacked for something he never even said. Could we consider the possibility that the level of subtle anger and bubbling intensity in this latest attack on "chick sluts" may have more revealing origins? It might be fun to move the discussion to natural selection -- where we have at least some scientific foundation rather than relying on silly social pandering -- and consider whether the hysteria may be related to a perceived reduction in the market value of a precious commodity.

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    Well, I've waited to put in my two cents here. I probably won't read the book, although I did skim through it a week or so ago.. Sad that she didn't interview actual women in the industry however I am one that views many things completely different.

    Any woman could work in a strip club as a stripper, if she deemed appropriate, and if she could muster up enough courage to last more than an hour.But,women have become lazy. I believe that Society has brainwashed most women in believing that they have to be taken care of. I am firmly against these women who feel that they are to be catered to, bowed down to and given everything under the sun just so that some poor guy can be in their presence. Granted, as dancers, strippers whatever term you wish to use (Me, I use stripper, I take my clothes off, big deal, who cares.. if I don't why should you?), we are the exception to this rule. I have yet to meet a woman in this business that is lazy. I have met some of the most hardest working women in this industry, not all women are cut out for it, which is why some can't last more than hour when they decide to de rail against the man in their life and go out and "Be a stripper.. omg!". I believe that everyone, regardless of their situation is capable of taking care of themselves. I over hear phone conversations in stores of women who tell their boyfriends, husbands or lovers, “Well, if you’d buy me this, maybe I’d do this for you”. Bullshit. Well, there are also some men that way. Some men who have been brainwashed by their own mothers that they require a woman to do everything for them. Their cooking, their laundry, etc.

    Possibly at this point many of you are wondering where I am going with this. My point is is that regardless of being in the industry or not, we are real people... we all walk among those who have no idea what we do. We are all mothers, sisters, daughters, etc.. to place us all in a class of being "un real" "Un natural" based upon on profession, well.. perhaps one should put on a pair of shoes... as l said before, any woman could be in this industry, that is, if she has the confidence and the drive to do so. If any of my former neighbors knew what I had done for a living all those years, I'm sure I would have been banned from the neighborhood. I've seen women do the once over, and yes, there are those who are just jealous.

    As for the "victimization" statement. I've known more women OUTSIDE Of this industry who have played this card to their advantage than those who are in this industry.

    Guess I am just one of those women who could just care less. What you see is what you get with me. You take it or you leave it. I'm not broken, I don't need fixing and if someone has a problem with me, then its their problem.

    My mother and grandmother didnt' fight for equal rights for nothing, so why should my choice of profession deem me as unreal or unnatural. I say, if you have a problem with something, then remove yourself from it. It exsists, so avoid it if you don't like it.

    Truthfully, and perhaps I am completely off topic here, but opinions flare in any way you view this book. She brings up some ample points, but she also brings up some things that will be controversial no matter how they are presented.

    I suppose it is just how you view her opinion.
    Last edited by Gynger; 10-02-2005 at 10:07 PM.


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Rather than sweating through the sheets for the fourth night in a row (and not via my preferred means of perspiration, sadly), I figured I'd chime in again. Good to know I can count on TOO to aid me in my time of incapacitation...

    <S> TOO

    And I'm interested - what do you think is "expressive" about exotic dancing? Or, for that matter, expansive?
    OK, Jenny. You win. You exposed the truth for what it really is. All this time--the last 15 years I've been hitting SCs--I've discovered--or so I thought--that the bulk of strippers I've had the pleasure of meeting (ITC or OTC) actually enjoy the expression of dance at a personal level, and are clearly far more comfortable, varied and experimental in their sexual predilections.

    But you've obviously put that delusion of mine into proper perspective; they were all cold, callous business bitches that were actually rather frigid and miserable human beings. I don't know how I experienced it any other way.

    Surely, you're just being deliberately obtuse here? The concept of expressive and expansive sexuality in dancers is patently self-evident to me--and to people like TOO and your favorite poster, MW.

    Doesn't it seem as if it is mostly just existing within the framework of male-dominated sexuality?
    Absolutely not. Again, you're trying to make victims out of women that otherwise don't fit that criteria.

    I mean, I've read threads and posts from you detailing how all strippers should fit a certain mold - that they shouldn't be fat or tattooed or whatever. I do see the point made here that stripping CAN feel empowering - but it is downright ostrich if you can't see the flip side of it.
    I knew I'd hit a nerve with you with that post on the Blue Side. I didn't cast a mold for strippers, in this thread about fat girls in strip clubs.

    While we were lamenting the pandering that goes on with regard to girls that shouldn't be dancers, the gist of what I said was contained in this paragraph:

    Do I like variety? Absolutely! Variety in an SC is NinaDaisy next to Bridgette next to TFD, not a bunch of girls that look like the "Before" models from a friggin' Zantrex-3 commercial.
    What I can't appreciate is "she's just jealous of sex-workers because they're pretty and she's not."
    That's a grotesque oversimplification of what I wrote. As TOO said, it's a classic choir-preaching exercise masquerading as feminist philosophy because it would sell to the built-in audience.

    Of course, there are some ravishing natural beauties in the biz, but a great many dancers(myself included) are fairly average-looking women who invest a lot of effort (and money!) in the quest to create a certain physical illusion while at work.
    Nic, you're a terrible, terrible liar--which is a quality I like in a woman, actually. Lest, you forget, I've seen a photo or two of you...

    My point is that practically any woman, if she were so inclined, could conceivably make herself look good enough to get a job in a strip club (really, the hiring standards at all but the most upscale clubs really aren't that stringent).
    Ah, naive and gentle Nic. The hiring practices of strip clubs are a topic apparently only suitable for the Blue Side, as illustrated in the above link. But it sidesteps the issue here about women that aren't attractive envying women that are and regurgitating that in public forums for mutual reassurance in the face of collective insecurity against the minority, particularly as it pertains to the attitude of their men towards that affected minority.

    CO, I love ya, baby, but you have to concede the fact that there really are some women--possibly even some beautiful women--who disapprove of the sex industry for reasons more substantial than just a hysterical fit of jealousy.
    I don't disagree--but what is the predominant condition that creates such overt hostility to women that work the sex industry or women that merely look like it, express an interest in it, or otherwise exhibit acceptance of it? It's certainly not about the work environment...cue TOO's suggestion of natural selection, please.

    I hate to use an SW girl as an example, but I'll just point people to Gynger's experience in the professional world as she's posted it here on occasion. She obviously doesn't show up looking like a stripper to her law office. And yet, and yet, what is the history of her treatment by some women in her work environment? And how many threads on this site relay the same stories?

    It might be fun to move the discussion to natural selection -- where we have at least some scientific foundation rather than relying on silly social pandering -- and consider whether the hysteria may be related to a perceived reduction in the market value of a precious commodity.
    Amen. There's a flooding of the market, indeed. But perhaps that's a theoretical topic for another thread entirely.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    use me as an example.. because God knows that I have had my fair share of finger pointing and whispers... and as I kindly pointed out once to someone, before you start talking about the weeds across the fence, one must first look at their yard!

    I'd like to add after going back and reading more of this post, which is a bit hard for me to follow because it goes back and forth on such completely different topics as cruel treatment towards women in other countries etc... , that as a whole, society has just over saturated the stereo type of this profession... over saturated women in general and just have branded a big scarlet letter on those who go against the grain.

    Who deems what is against the grain anyhow? Society? Those who form a isolated opinion and get others to agree with them on what is deemed as acceptable?

    Women can't help how they are... some of us just have this "way" about them.. it reaks, it stinks and it drives people nuts, or rather, throws them into fits of jealousy because either they can't understand us, or they lack something they wish to have and can never get.

    I dunno. Its late, I'm exhausted and I'm probably not making much sense.


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Of course, there are some ravishing natural beauties in the biz, but a great many dancers(myself included) are fairly average-looking women who invest a lot of effort (and money!) in the quest to create a certain physical illusion while at work.
    No, you belong to a special class of women who can fly under the hottie radar when they want to. I prefer that unassuming look in cars and women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    OK, Jenny. You win. You exposed the truth for what it really is. All this time--the last 15 years I've been hitting SCs--I've discovered--or so I thought--that the bulk of strippers I've had the pleasure of meeting (ITC or OTC) actually enjoy the expression of dance at a personal level, and are clearly far more comfortable, varied and experimental in their sexual predilections.
    That's cute. How instead of actually engaging with the question of what makes dancing around in a cute/sexy way legitimate as artistic expression, how you turn around and instead engage with what you see as a facet of my personality. I mean, not particularly compelling to a person of reasonable intelligence, but cute. On the other hand, I suppose if I'm going to engage in snarkiness there is only so much I can complain when people do it back. So. I'll actually ask again: Keeping in mind that enjoying an activity doesn't render it artistically expressive, do you honestly think that climbing a pole and leaping into lateral splits really counts as artistic expression? I mean it is obviously expression in the simplest terms of someone is doing something - but what makes it expression in that higher way, in your opinion? What makes it different (in a substantive way - that is, outside of the obvious geographical differences) than dancing in a sexy way in a club to get the attention of nearby guys? I can enjoy stage dancing - on a good night I feel like a rock star - but that, in itself, doesn't elevate it into performance art. Nor, for that matter, would NOT enjoying it sink it from the level of performance art. I mean, nobody says that a ballerina is less artistic because she doesn't enjoy dancing Copelia. So what do you think that the dancer is actually expressing through her performance?

    As for the rest of your contention - that dancers are more comfortable with their sexuality in general, I don't think you have to go further from this board to see that is not true. Dancers are more comfortable with the commodification of their sexuality. There are no shared opinions here on any other aspect of sexuality. The girls here seems to span the spectrum of oppressed to free as much as any other group of people I've ever met.

    But you've obviously put that delusion of mine into proper perspective; they were all cold, callous business bitches that were actually rather frigid and miserable human beings. I don't know how I experienced it any other way.
    Again - I questioned the validity of endowing lap dancing and stage dancing with the merit of elevated self-expression. I didn't make a comment even remotely approaching how bitchy or businessy (because, of course, those things are intertwined) the dancers are.

    Surely, you're just being deliberately obtuse here? The concept of expressive and expansive sexuality in dancers is patently self-evident to me--and to people like TOO and your favorite poster, MW.
    No. I'm not being obtuse. In fact I think I outlined specifically how I think that exotic dancing, in some ways, fits more into a contracted definition of female sexuality than an expansive one. Indeed Susan has already pointed out that our industry delineates around that contracted definition.

    Absolutely not. Again, you're trying to make victims out of women that otherwise don't fit that criteria.
    In what way have I even approached victimhood? That particular comment has nothing to do, even, with the dancers as individuals. That is about the construction of sexuality that they are trying/meant to try to fit into. And, again, it would be kind of neat if you would actually approach the question that I asked with something resembling intelligent engagement rathter than just replying with a Nuh huh.

    I knew I'd hit a nerve with you with that post on the Blue Side. I didn't cast a mold for strippers, in this thread about fat girls in strip clubs.
    Look, doll - what you like in a stripper is fine. I can't tell you who to buy dances from, and if I could - well, that would be a very strange sort of relationship. I just don't think you can viably tout the "expansive definition of sexuality" card (which, you are refusing to further define or refine, by the way) while maintaining that strippers have to fit into a certain kind of type or look. And while I have all the respect in the world for the dancers that you specifically mentioned there are those (and I would be among them) that don't think lining them up seems particularly expansive or, for that matter, varied (as in I think they are all the glamour bombshell types - I'm not trying to say that they are interchangable).

    That's a grotesque oversimplification of what I wrote. As TOO said, it's a classic choir-preaching exercise masquerading as feminist philosophy because it would sell to the built-in audience.
    Oh. Hmm. I wonder where I got this idea... um. How very strange... oh, wait, maybe from this:
    Quote:
    Yeah, and I bet they are all ugly and jealous.
    Even if you're being facetious here, I agree.
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    So. I'll actually ask again: Keeping in mind that enjoying an activity doesn't render it artistically expressive, do you honestly think that climbing a pole and leaping into lateral splits really counts as artistic expression? I mean it is obviously expression in the simplest terms of someone is doing something - but what makes it expression in that higher way, in your opinion? What makes it different (in a substantive way - that is, outside of the obvious geographical differences) than dancing in a sexy way in a club to get the attention of nearby guys? I can enjoy stage dancing - on a good night I feel like a rock star - but that, in itself, doesn't elevate it into performance art. Nor, for that matter, would NOT enjoying it sink it from the level of performance art. I mean, nobody says that a ballerina is less artistic because she doesn't enjoy dancing Copelia. So what do you think that the dancer is actually expressing through her performance?
    "Performance art" is highly original and creative, as outlined here:



    The performing arts can be timeless and classic, as in The Nutcracker.

    I know dancers who like to dance. I've seen great pole tricks, back flips, drop splits, standing leg lifts, etc. in electric performances by house dancers. Sport is what you make it. Most dancers don't care about expressing themselves, but the option is there for the ones who do. You can do things on stage that you could never do in a dance club.

    I sometimes watch dancers for their flexibility and grace, almost forgetting I'm in a strip club. Some of my favorite dancers get performance highs, ruling the audience with subtle movements and gestures. If you sometimes feel like a rock star, I think you understand my point.

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    I sometimes watch dancers for their flexibility and grace, almost forgetting I'm in a strip club. Some of my favorite dancers get performance highs, ruling the audience with subtle movements and gestures. If you sometimes feel like a rock star, I think you understand my point.
    Agreed.

    There's one girl at my home club--SW2 might even know her--who's a trained gymnast OTC, and that chick does some awesome stuff on the stage that always has me asking, "How the hell did she do that?"
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