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Thread: Are strippers people????

  1. #51
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    I know dancers who like to dance. I've seen great pole tricks, back flips, drop splits, standing leg lifts, etc. in electric performances by house dancers. Sport is what you make it. Most dancers don't care about expressing themselves, but the option is there for the ones who do. You can do things on stage that you could never do in a dance club.
    Okay, perhaps I am not being clear. I realize that some dancers like to dance. I like to dance - sometimes. However, I think if we are going to elevate something (which also must be differentiated from some person) to artform we have to justify it in some way. Is every musician trying to "express something"? No. But your average and reasonable musician is. Therefore we call music art (if anyone wants to actually contest that music is art, I am really not qualified to do it. If you want to question whether that criteria makes music art, I would be interested in hearing something). So, although there are likely strippers who tote their toe shoes onto the stage and really involve themselves with self expression, as there is likely one stripper who has toted a piglet on stage and re-enacted Futz, I think we have to deal with the average and reasonable dancer. So if we are going to say that exotic dancing (which we have all agreed is different from dancing) is its own art form, I don't think it is unreasonable to want to explore how it is an art form.

    Yes - you can do things on a stage you can't do in a dance club. But I think what I meant was how was the mode of self-expression different than the dancing in a dance club.

    And of course, watching dancers can be enjoyable. I, personally, find it very enjoyable and I've seen many dancer do things that leave me saying "Is that even possible?" But I can't think that it is legitimate to endow everything enjoyable to the level of artistry, and I similarly can't think that what amount to stage tricks amount to artistry either.

    I sometimes watch dancers for their flexibility and grace, almost forgetting I'm in a strip club. Some of my favorite dancers get performance highs, ruling the audience with subtle movements and gestures. If you sometimes feel like a rock star, I think you understand my point.
    Certainly I get your point. But enjoying something doesn't make it "expressive". So I'm interested in where we locate "expression" for these purposes. I am actually interested in this - I'm not just arguing back for the sake of making my point (alhtough, you know I would).

    And, by the way, TOO - I'm sure, since you have read any Paglia, that you must be familar with "Rape and Modern Sex War".
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    However, I think if we are going to elevate something (which also must be differentiated from some person) to artform we have to justify it in some way.

    ....So if we are going to say that exotic dancing (which we have all agreed is different from dancing) is its own art form, I don't think it is unreasonable to want to explore how it is an art form.
    ... enjoying something doesn't make it "expressive". So I'm interested in where we locate "expression" for these purposes.
    Okay, let me weigh in here. It's not an easy issue, because I hesitate to elevate contemporary stripping to the level of art. However, is it expression? And specifically, was it expression for me? And, if so, exactly what was I expressing?

    A little history is in order here. Growing up, I was a pretty serious dancer. For years, I took 5 classes/week during the school year and 10-12 classes/week in the summer. I studied with good teachers. I was accepted into a number of competitive and intensive programs (the children's program at Alvin Ailey School of American Dance, a number of after-school and summer programs at SUNY Purchase--which has one of the top three University-level dance programs in the U.S.--summer programs with Lar Lubovitch at Tisch School of the Arts at NYU, programs taught by company members from Merce Cunningham, Pilobolus, Jose Limon, etc...) In other words, I was a talented dancer. I wasn't phenomenal, but I was pretty damn good.

    I loved improv classes. And I'd sneak into empty studios whenever I could, put on a piece of music, and just...dance. This was something I felt compelled to do (and had ever since I was quite young.) Sometimes I was choreographing something, but more often it was just for the sheer sensual pleasure of letting the music tell my body what to do. (Though I think there were premonitions of my checkered future even back then...in an improv class that I took when I was about 16, I remember collectively watching a video that had been taken of one of our exercises. One of the male dancers (very gay) commented, "Nicolina always looks like she's in passion amore..." )

    My point is that I believe I was expressing something when I snuck into those empty studios and danced just for pure pleasure. It was a form of self-expression. And really, to be perfectly, 100% honest about it, I felt that when I took the stage at a strip club, the internal experience wasn't very different from the experience of dancing for my own pleasure.

    Now, I can't really articulate exactly what it was that I was "expressing," in either case. At the clubs, of course, the style of movement was different than it was when I was using everything I'd learned as a serious dance student--it was more limited, and it was certainly prescribed by cultural concepts of what is "sexy"--specifically, what style of movement makes a female human sexually desirable to a male human.

    At least part of what I was expressing was a version of my sexuality--exaggerated, no doubt, but still honest. If I was only expressing sexuality and nothing else, would that automatically disqualify it as art?

    I would venture to say (with great hesitation and reservation) that stage dancing--for me--was a form of expression beyond merely "sexual conduct with intent to arouse", or gyrations intended solely to appeal to "the prurient interest."

    I don't think this is true for all dancers, though. I often heard comments from customers (and other dancers) to the effect that I put more of my 'self' or 'soul' into the dancing, or that I made 'more of an art' of it than did most of the other girls.

    Not that I did anything geeky or goofy up there--Please let me stress that I was not doing performance art or ballet or modern or (god forbid) "interpretive dance". I was bumpin' and grindin' with the best of them. And I wasn't alone, either. I've known a lot of dancers who seemed, somehow, to put something into the movement and the performance that made it somehow...I don't know...more than the sum of its parts? Sometimes they were also trained dancers, but sometimes they were girls who had no dance training at all and felt that they "couldn't dance", even at clubs.

    Why does any of this matter? Well, funny you ask that question. I just heard the director David Cronenberg talking to Terry Gross on Fresh Air (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=4934043). He said he believes that an artist has no social responsibility. Part of the job of an artist is to plumb and present the dark and raunchy side of human nature, without worrying about the consequences of his work for society as a whole.

    If this is true (and I believe it is), and if strippers are "artists" (which is highly debatable), then we have absolutely no obligation to consider whether or not our work is harmful to women, or men, or society as a whole.

    Or Ariel Levy.

    Just a thought....
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by SportsWriter2
    Sport is what you make it. Most dancers don't care about expressing themselves, but the option is there for the ones who do....
    I sometimes watch dancers for their flexibility and grace, almost forgetting I'm in a strip club. Some of my favorite dancers get performance highs, ruling the audience with subtle movements and gestures.
    Well said, Sporty. I know and love that performance high...it's very addictive, and it's very, very difficult to describe in words (though Lily Burana did a pretty good job of it toward the end of Strip City).

    I think what's being "expressed"--in almost any form of abstract dance (i.e. dance that isn't telling a simple story)--is so visceral that I'm not sure it is possible to adequately articulate it. It may even be stupid to try.
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Oh, and one more thing:

    CO, I'm sorry you're sick. Hope you feel better soon.

    (And TOO, CO, & Sporty, thanks for the sweet lil ego-boosts. But it's too true that I most of the time fly waaaayyy under the radar. I honestly never get attitude from other women because they think I'm hotter than they are. However, I myself have been painfully jealous of other women because I thought they looked better than me. But, as you can see, that didn't exactly turn me into a bitter bitch who hates strippers.)
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    I think what's being "expressed"--in almost any form of abstract dance (i.e. dance that isn't telling a simple story)--is so visceral that I'm not sure it is possible to adequately articulate it. It may even be stupid to try.
    I remember watching the University of Rhode Island up by seven against Stanford late in the Sweet Sixteen round of an NCAA basketball tournament. The analyst kept saying, "This is incredible; these guys are playing unconscious." He meant that everything just flowed through muscle memory. Conscious thought would have destroyed the rhythm.

    I think Nic's right. The best performances are often the hardest to articulate, like trying to explain how you know exactly when your boy's gonna cut to the hoop and why you can hit him at just the right time.

  6. #56
    Featured Member LilSweetVixen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I realize that some dancers like to dance. I like to dance - sometimes. However, I think if we are going to elevate something to artform we have to justify it in some way.
    Welcome to post-modernism. There's no distinction between so-called high and low art. Art is art. For you to condescend your own craft you could at least try not to be arbitrary. Plus when the tables turn, for example with men donning the feminine elements of dress, appearance, voice, and mannerism, they put us all to total shame for this type of groundless lack of appreciation for our gift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Is every musician trying to "express something"? No. But your average and reasonable musician is. Therefore we call music art
    How do you know that every musician isn't trying to express something? And who cares about the expression aspect? Is talking art? Typing? You're being expressive in talking and typing are you not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Yes - you can do things on a stage you can't do in a dance club. But I think what I meant was how was the mode of self-expression different than the dancing in a dance club.
    Art is a human attempt to trump or supplement nature. When you're sleeping, you're being natural. Not art. Establishing a dance club as an unartistic venue is once again arbitrary. If you're a world renowned Mambo dancer, why would dancing at a dance club not be art? When you're stripdancing, you're not just doing what comes naturally, you are trumping and supplementing your nature. Add relative aesthetic value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    But enjoying something doesn't make it "expressive".
    Yes it does. Why wouldn't it?

    Besides, establishing something as art or not has no bearing on CHOICE and the equality inherent in having choice.

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    "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." -Azar Nafisi


  7. #57
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Not that I did anything geeky or goofy up there--Please let me stress that I was not doing performance art or ballet or modern or (god forbid) "interpretive dance".
    Thank god. I was worrying for a second.

    Why does any of this matter? Well, funny you ask that question.
    I would never ask you that question. I would always wait patiently, with quiet and absolute faith that you would brilliantly bring in all points of view, in a stingingly bright conclusion (I'm sorry - I can't bring myself to compliment your ass. We will just have to make do with your stunningly articulate brilliance)

    I just heard the director David Cronenberg talking to Terry Gross on Fresh Air (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=4934043). He said he believes that an artist has no social responsibility. Part of the job of an artist is to plumb and present the dark and raunchy side of human nature, without worrying about the consequences of his work for society as a whole.

    If this is true (and I believe it is), and if strippers are "artists" (which is highly debatable), then we have absolutely no obligation to consider whether or not our work is harmful to women, or men, or society as a whole.

    Or Ariel Levy.

    Just a thought....
    I think our obligation to Levy is the last thing we need to worry about - and now I am dying, and I mean dying, to engage in a detailed discussion about what the artist owes to his or her society and I will post the hell out of it tomorrow. Is this a digression, or is it a legitimate redirection?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    ...now I am dying, and I mean dying, to engage in a detailed discussion about what the artist owes to his or her society and I will post the hell out of it tomorrow. Is this a digression, or is it a legitimate redirection?
    Well, if you don't think SC dancing can be art, it's an abandonment of the thread. If you do think it can be art, it's a digression. Either way, we're going to be a long time gone.

    If you're going there, could you also comment on whether you think Fuck Rap is an artistic rebellion against the black bourgeois Weltanschauung?

  9. #59
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    I don't know if I would go so far as to say that it could NEVER be art - that dancing erotically, in of itself separates it from art. However, I think social context and all that jazz has meaning - and particularly because I do agree with Nic and Cronenberg and (to an extent) James Joyce who say that the artist has a sacred and protected place in culture - I am unwilling to simply endow all movement, all mark, all writing with the term "art". (And by the way, that is something about which James Joyce, and I betcha David Cronenberg would agree with. Dammit).

    Even within the context of this conversation - examine the very particular use to which the person who brought up expression and expansion is putting it. Is he willing to put it to that use in other circumstances? I would surprised, and indeed we've seen many situations in which he has made statement hugely inconsistent with this viewpoint. That would be fine - if he wanted to change his mind. But he doesn't. You cannot make something art for some use and not for others. You cannot make something "expressive" and "expansive" for some use and not for others. (Least of all can you effectively do it if you don't know what expression or expansion is). Well, you can. But there has to be some compelling difference in circumstance.

    LSV - that is not the sum of post modernism, as I am sure you are aware. And welcome to post-post modernism, where we've realized that deconstuction isn't the new construction. I appreciate SOME of your points, but you must realize (and when I say you must realize, I actually mean, I'm pretty sure you already know this) that post modernism, like modernism served a very specific purpose and was reactionary by nature. Since it cannot react against itself it becomes more and more obselete.

    And, I don't even know what fuck rap is, so I cannot even begin to comment on it.
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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Well, you can. But there has to be some compelling difference in circumstance.
    I was going to point out that a can of soup can be art or it can be a can of soup, but since with this sentence you undercut your entire argument, my comment may be superfluous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Thank god. I was worrying for a second.
    Not to worry. Though a guy did once tell me, "I'd pay to watch you dance with your clothes on!"

    (I'm sorry - I can't bring myself to compliment your ass.
    Jenny, I'm crushed.
    We will just have to make do with your stunningly articulate brilliance)
    Dammit, I hate being valued for my brains over my ass!

    (And before you boys get your undies in a bunch, I know that all three of you like a side order of brains with your booty )


    I think our obligation to Levy is the last thing we need to worry about - and now I am dying, and I mean dying, to engage in a detailed discussion about what the artist owes to his or her society and I will post the hell out of it tomorrow. Is this a digression, or is it a legitimate redirection?
    A little of both, maybe, but I love thread drift myself. Long rambly threads like this one are just a big old grab bag of ideas. Reach in, grab a quote, think on it awhile, and let it take you to the next big idea. Ride it.

    I am still planning to post on the relationship between equality, freedom, and "choice." The Social Darwinist William Graham Sumner believed that freedom and equality were mutually exclusive in society. You could have either freedom or equality but not both. I think that's crazy, but...there is an interesting relationship between the two ideas. When I have more time, I'll post more on this....
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot
    I was going to point out that a can of soup can be art or it can be a can of soup, but since with this sentence you undercut your entire argument, my comment may be superfluous.
    Ah yes, Andy Warhol's cans of soup.

    Jenny, dlabtot is the precursor of learned judges who will delight in undoing your long (and sometimes brilliant) briefs with your own imbedded irony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    (And before you boys get your undies in a bunch, I know that all three of you like a side order of brains with your booty )
    Speaking for myself, I'd prefer brains with a side order of booty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    (And before you boys get your undies in a bunch, I know that all three of you like a side order of brains with your booty )
    Now sweetheart, you know very well that I fell hopelessly in love with your mind first.

    Your fabulous, breathtaking ass totally bushwhacked me, though. It damn near shut down my entire sympathetic nervous system. Well, OK, with one dramatic, rip-snorting exception, of course.

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    Ok, I wrote a very long response and decided to scrap it for personal reasons. I just have one thing to say:

    Males, owners of penis, STOP FUCKING ASSUMING THAT I WAS SEXUALLY ABUSED/MOLESTED!!!! I was not, and its really sick that you can't get that through your heads about me and other sex workers. Please find something better to do with your time. Thanks, Katrine

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot
    I was going to point out that a can of soup can be art or it can be a can of soup, but since with this sentence you undercut your entire argument, my comment may be superfluous.
    Actually, Warhol and Duchamp were actually specifically in my mind when I wrote that. I don't know if acknowledging the existence of such art is really undercutting my argument that much - I would think of it as recognizing a simple fact. However unless anyone really believes that exotic dancing can viably be compared to that kind of modernist and postmodernist objet trouve, I don't really need to argue it just for the sake of it.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    However unless anyone really believes that exotic dancing can viably be compared to that kind of modernist and postmodernist objet trouve, I don't really need to argue it just for the sake of it.
    I don't believe it. Andy Warhol was a cheap trick. The dancers I like are far above that level.

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    Ariel Levy is right. The pendulum has swung too far.

    Labelling her as anti-sex or anti-male is preposterously inaccurate. Nor is she anti-stripper. She is, however, anti-ubiquitous-male-oriented-sexuality. Dial it back a bit. That's all she's really saying. When EVERYONE is a porn star and a stripper, what's the point?

    Ariel suggests that the ubiquitous loss of feminine mystique is damaging. After all, strippers don't walk around in public naked all day. They'd be out of a job. They understand preserving the mystique. Ariel blames feminism for this, not men.

    Ariel also hits some clunkers. Quoting Hefner from the 1950's was patently unfair. Her treatment of sex work was shallow and misplaced.

    I would suggest reading a word or two of her book or at least a few New York magazine columns by her before spouting ill-informed arrogant opinions such as many posters did here about her or her book. Nicolina excepted, of course. Your analysis was well-taken. At least take a look at this editorial about the book before labeling this woman I see as a potentially very positive influence on this industry.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110007288

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Has anyone encountered this new book, "Female Chauvinist Pigs: The Rise of Raunch Culture" by Ariel Levy?

    I skimmed it in the bookstore last night. It seems that Levy's thesis is that stripper chic, and women and girls who try to emulate not only strippers and porn stars but also the male reaction to them, all represent a huge setback for feminism and the struggle for women's equality.

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    Default Re: Are strippers people????

    In all the years and hundreds of dancers I've shared time and conversation with I've only known one who told me she was abused. Obviosly this is not the first thing that comes up in conversation but you would think that it would be more than ONE after my 20 odd years of clubbing. Anyone who publishes a book saying that the majority of dancers are abused and doesn't actually interview ANY has zero credibilty. This woman probably posted a request on SW for input from dancers and you all told her that she needs to walk a mile in your shoes before she can understand what it's like. She undoubtedly didn't but wrote the book anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    yoda, I want you so bad it aches in the swimsuit area.
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    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine
    Males, owners of penis, STOP FUCKING ASSUMING THAT I WAS SEXUALLY ABUSED/MOLESTED!!!! I was not, and its really sick that you can't get that through your heads about me and other sex workers. Please find something better to do with your time. Thanks, Katrine
    Amen!


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