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Thread: The difference between extras and prostitution

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    Default The difference between extras and prostitution

    I was just curious how other dancers feel about this issue. When I think of "extras" I don't automatically think that the dancer and/or customer are engaging in sex in some way (hand job, blow job, intercorse, or customer performing oral sex on girl or fingering her).

    When I think of extras, I think of things like the dancer doing something against club rules, but not precisely defined as having sex with the customer, like showing her crotch in a toppless bar, or allowing a customer to caress her in a strictly one way contact bar or no contact bar. She would do these things to charge "extra" for the liberties that are being taken.

    I believe that most of the forum users here define extras as sex acts, however, and the other as just "breaking the rules". Kinda seems a little too P.C. for me. I don't like to mince words to make them sound nicer then they are. There are extras, and there is having sex. I don't believe that the terms should all be lumped together. By strict defination, I am an extras girl. I have never had sex with a customer however, but I do regularly bend or break club rules to earn "extra" money.


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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Since in most clubs today some degree of contact is the norm, it usually means that prostitution and extras are one in the same. Still, there's a lot of gray areas. Lap dances are basically a form of dry-humping, and nearly all of us work in clubs that do those, since air dances and stage-only clubs are extremely rare.

    Still, IMO, something like letting a guy suck on your nipples during a dance (ew!) counts to me as an extra, since it's not strictly prostitution but at the same time it's not (supposed to be) part of the standard LD.
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    <--- not a dancer.

    Just a heads up.



    As you said Extras is breaking club rules. Sex is also breaking club rules. Extras equals but is not limited to sex.

    I believe that all dancers perform some sort of extra when the clientel provides a comfortable/safe environment. Maybe it helps keep clientel, I assume the thought process is no more devious than "If this custy wants to put his hand on my hip while I dance for him, then thats cool, he's been here x times and is a steady paycheck, and I would like to keep him around"

    Of course extras run the gamut and are defined by club rule breaking clauses. I got grindage in an air dance club after buying about 12 dances from a girl in fl. Was that dispicable of her to do? I would hope not, Was it an extra? Yes.

    My 2 cents. Delete this if it breaks the rules

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    i think there are volontary extras and accident-extras,,, the difference is in the intentionality.... some times guys lean and grab nipples and suck on it and u dont want them to but is too late, it happened , and so for that u r an extra girl? yes and no. if u let them keep going or encourage them to that -for more $ or whatever- i guess yes but if u stop it then no,,, is a very grey area,,, also when the splotching in pants happens... sometimes takes a little grinding or more grinding but is not the dancer intention to make it happen , in most cases, ..so this makes the dancer an xtra girl ? hard to say..

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    To me extras are breaking the rules to make money off of guys. you don't always have to offer the extra before the dance.

    Every club has different rules so what might be allowed at one club is an extra if it's not allowed at another.
    Example: I work two clubs. One you can go topless during dances, the other you can't. If you show tiitty at the club that doesn't allow it, then that's an extra. It's doing something against the rules to keep a guy in the dance area, get him there, or to try and keep hom from going after other dancers.
    An extra to me is something that isn't normally done (or allowed) in the lap dance room so it becomes something "extra".
    To me prostitution is a sex act that involves oral sex or intercourse of some kind (someone's getting poked.)
    I concider fingering an extra, and also an unnecessary risk, but to each his own.
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by NinaDaisy
    Since in most clubs today some degree of contact is the norm, it usually means that prostitution and extras are one in the same. Still, there's a lot of gray areas. Lap dances are basically a form of dry-humping, and nearly all of us work in clubs that do those, since air dances and stage-only clubs are extremely rare.

    Still, IMO, something like letting a guy suck on your nipples during a dance (ew!) counts to me as an extra, since it's not strictly prostitution but at the same time it's not (supposed to be) part of the standard LD.
    I am close agreement with NinaDaisy.

    In general when I think "extras" I think sex or sex acts for pay. I do however include things like nipple sucking in that description too.

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    Veteran Member TROU8LE~'s Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    "Extras" is a sex act in my oppinion.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    We're unlikely to get a concensus on such a nebulous term, except to agree that it's nebulous. Barring common definitions, it's helpful to be very specific about what we mean whenever we discuss it. As used in these forums, extras can mean something as general as anything extra beyond the rules, common practice or law. (Note that those three criteria aren't the same, so even the general definition is vague.) It can also mean the more specific acts of hand job, blow job or digital/genital intercourse.

    Even the definition of prostitution is elastic in the context of discussions here. In many states, the law views it as the act of making any sort of contact with the customer's genitals, even fondling through a layer of clothing, in exchange for money. So grinding, and even briefly brushing, would qualify. But it varies by state and jurisdiction. Meanwhile, in the more colloquial usages here (and for some, the more naive usages), I detect most of us think of prostitution as having to involve a higher level of sexual contact. Just don't try to argue that colloquial definition in a court of law.

    Thus, we often get into debates over who's doing extras and who's not, whether that's bad for business or simply a part of business, and whether or not you or you or you is a prostitute but merely won't admit it to yourself. And some of our male detractors like to claim that it's all so blurry that there's nothing more than moral bombast toward others in the act of drawing lines and making distinctions; that it's all just our excessive bitching about the money someone else is making; and that we're all sex workers and there's no legitimacy to defining subsets of that class, so just quit denying it and stick together. Of course, they have their own agenda for wanting extras to continue unimpeded at bargain basement prices in the venue of their patronage, so it's self-serving for them to support that view and deny the existence of any workplace or business advantages of insisting upon a standardized menu.

    Yada, yada, yada. There, does that about cover the angles?

    -Ev

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence
    As used in these forums, extras can mean something as general as anything extra beyond the rules, common practice or law. (Note that those three criteria aren't the same, so even the general definition is vague.) It can also mean the more specific acts of hand job, blow job or digital/genital intercourse.
    Those specific acts you mention are what I think of as "extras."

    The rest (including heavy grinding, breast maulings and nipple sucking) fall under the category of "high mileage."

    Now, if you work in a low- or medium-mileage club and you do high-mileage stuff, you're likely to be accused of doing "extras" by the other dancers (not to mention having your eyeballs clawed out . Sorry... it's a Blue Side joke.)

    But if you allow groping in a club where everyone else is doing the same, and management looks the other way, then I don't think you're doing "extras"...not unless you take it a step further and engage in the specific acts mentioned above.

    Even the definition of prostitution is elastic in the context of discussions here.
    True. And isn't it also true that it isn't the act of prostitution (i.e. the exchange of sex for cash) that is illegal, but only the solicitation of prostitution that counts as a criminal act?

    Does this mean that even if you're fucking guys in the champagne room, you aren't actually breaking the law if you never specifically state that you are going to do x in exchange for y amount of money?

    .......Yada, yada, yada. There, does that about cover the angles?
    Yup. It sure does.
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Agree that sex for money is considered an "extra" and other things like fondling and grinding are high mileage. But what do I know....I work in NJ where God forbid you take a dollar bill in the strap of your bikini top. We have some seriously uptight legislation here.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Ooh. This thread calls for some cat and girl.

    (BTW - how sad is it that on Saturday night I am happy as a little clam reading internet comics in between school readings and stripperweb posts? God. No wonder I can't get a date).
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Extras ... hmmm ..... deffinitly varys from club to club and girl to girl. To me, an extra is anything I wont do regardless of which club I am at. The act is "extra" more than what I am willing to do.

    So to me, extra is anything more than one way contact lap dances. I dont kiss, lick, grab crotches ...or allow any of it to be done to me. My rule is, I do the work, you keep your hands to your self and watch/enjoy.
    Although i do not dance nude, I dont consider that extra, just something I wont do.
    I plan will not work at clubs wear two-way contact is allowed, I have tried and it is not in my comfort zone.
    ALso, I think meeting custies otc is extra. you wouldnt meet your lawyer or accountant somewhere to do what should be getting done in there office, so I am not going to "hang"out with custys, if they want my time they will pay for it in the club where I know I am safe.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    extras IMO

    Nipple sucking, touching..pinching ( by the custy. )

    Fingering , Oral on either part and of course sex.

    Kissing ( i've seen this all too often )

    and excessive grinding ( ie not really dancing just hopping on and making the custy raw )

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    But if you allow groping in a club where everyone else is doing the same, and management looks the other way, then I don't think you're doing "extras"...not unless you take it a step further and engage in the specific acts mentioned above.

    True. And isn't it also true that it isn't the act of prostitution (i.e. the exchange of sex for cash) that is illegal, but only the solicitation of prostitution that counts as a criminal act?

    I agree that, in the minds of many dancers and clubowners, a 'nebulous' dotted line is drawn. On one side of that dotted line are Fingering, HJ's, BJ's, and other blatant sex acts. On the other side of that dotted line are grinding lap dances, brief dick brushing through the customer's pants, breast grabs and sucks and other acts of 'tittilation'. Dancers and clubowners like to think that anything falling on the far side of the line as being 'prostitution', while anything falling short of the line is merely 'tittilation' thus OK. This is great from a psychological standpoint for managing pride / guilt / self-worth / rationalization.

    However, when it comes to local cops, DA's, judges and juries, the dotted line drawn by clubowners and dancers has no legal meaning. In most states and cities, there is a legal solid line in regard to dancer actions which legally constitute a misdemeanor versus those which don't. There's nothing nebulous about this, the legal distinction is as clear as sunlight and darkness. In most states and cities, inadvertent dick brushing, breast grabbing and sucking, and even grinding lap dances fall on the far side of that solid line right along with HJ's, BJ's and FS.

    If local cops/politicians are given a reason to bust a club, in the eyes of cops, DA's, judges and juries, all the dancers are potentially considered to be performing illegal acts - and all dancers are potentially chargeable with a misdemeanor carrying the same legal penalty if cops are given a reason to check the club out. Thus the fact that clubowners and some dancers consider certain activities to be OK and allow them/perform them on a nightly basis, while considering certain other activities to be 'across the dotted line', not OK and not allowed in the club, this is a legally meaningless distinction. In point of fact, in many states and cities, the grinding lap dances, breast contact etc. which are allowed and performed on a nightly basis, are just as illegal as the HJ's, BJ's and FS being complained about.

    From the legal standpoint, in many states and cities the only club scenario which is considered to be 100% legal (on the surface at least) is the super-upscale show club where (again on the surface at least) contact levels are minimal. Thus, in many states and cities, the only way that a dancer can avoid working under conditions which are technically illegal is to 'make the cut' and get hired by the super-upscale show club. Again a big hooray for the 10% of dancers who are able to do this, but this leaves the other 90% of dancers working in an environment of having to decide to perform one set of technically illegal acts on a nightly basis in exchange for marginal income potential, versus deciding to perform a different set of obviously illegal acts in exchange for much higher income potential.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-08-2005 at 08:15 PM.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    If local cops/politicians are given a reason to bust a club, in the eyes of cops, DA's, judges and juries, all the dancers are potentially considered to be performing illegal acts - and all dancers are potentially chargeable with a misdemeanor carrying the same legal penalty. Thus the fact that clubowners and some dancers consider certain activities to be OK and allow them/perform them on a nightly basis, while considering certain other activities to be 'across the dotted line', not OK, and not allowed in the club, is a legally meaningless distinction.
    Definitely true, and important to point out. I worked in a club that got busted. About 12 dancers were arrested on prostitution charges, even though most of them did nothing more than solicit a table dance. It had less to do with what was going on in the club and more to do with the fact that local politicians and LE were being pressured by the local community (and the church across the street) to shut the place down.

    So yes, everyone should be aware that you can face prostitution charges even if you've never come close to performing an "extra."

    However, I don't think that was the point of the original question. I think it was more to ask how different dancers define the term for themselves.

    But Melonie, I was hoping you could answer my question about the act of solicitation vs. the act of prostitution, given your encyclopedic knowledge of...well...practically everything . I keep meaning to look this up, but I haven't yet....
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Another thought:

    The main difference between "SC extras" and "prostitution" is that SC extras occur in a SC!

    Also, SC "extras" often involve stuff that's more in the category of "foreplay" as opposed to actual intercourse. I get the impression that in a lot of "extras" clubs, the guys are paying for an experience that resembles the "heavy petting" sessions they most likely last experienced in a parked car with their high school girlfriend, who wouldn't let them "go all the way". I can understand the appeal of that (though I personally hold an old-fashioned ho's belief that, no matter what else you're doing for money, kissing is so intimate that it should be reserved for your SO alone.)

    I've asked on Blue why some guys seem to prefer the experience of SC extras to regular incall or outcall prostitution. The responses lead me to believe that:
    a)It's more convenient.
    b)It's less hard-core and feels less "sleazy."
    c)It's easier for the customer to fool himself into thinking that he isn't really paying for sex, he's just paying for a champagne room.
    d) There is a greater opportunity to "window shop," if you will, before choosing the service provider. If he doesn't find anything he likes, there is no obligation, and no awkwardness in deciding not to go for the gusto after all.
    e) The girls in a SC tend to be hotter and more personable than the girls who do incall or outcall prostitution.

    [Why do I feel like I'm gonna get in trouble for this post???]
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    Featured Member MinahSky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    I've got your back, Nic!
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    So yes, everyone should be aware that you can face prostitution charges even if you've never come close to performing an "extra."
    ain't that the truth ! Also, in many cities, dancers can face charges of breaking the local anti-dance club ordinance, which carries the same misdemeanor penalties and which carry the same 'sex crime' overtones as a prostitution bust when seen on a girl's permanent record - but where convictions are easier to obtain and where appeals have a much lower chance of success.

    However, I don't think that was the point of the original question. I think it was more to ask how different dancers define the term for themselves
    This was my point about the 'psychological exercise' in self worth / guilt / rationalization in bothering to draw a distinction between illegal and blatant acts of 'prostitution' versus equally illegal but mentally acceptable less blatant acts of 'tittilation'. Granted that this 'psychological exercise' is important for certain dancers to allow them to continue dancing - or more precisely to allow them to continue to deal with grinding lap dances, breast grabs and sucks etc. But when viewed from outside the club by the general public, everything going on inside such a club is illegal and 'dirty' (with the super-upscale show clubs being an exception - on the surface at least). Therefore when viewed from outside the club, the point of the original poster is a case of 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

    But Melonie, I was hoping you could answer my question about the act of solicitation vs. the act of prostitution, given your encyclopedic knowledge of...well...practically everything . I keep meaning to look this up, but I haven't yet....
    Again this varies based on the wording of specific state/local laws, and to some degree on the policies of local LE dept's. In all probability, the promise of a HJ/grinding lap dance in exchange for a customer paying x dollars for admission to the private dance room is sufficient grounds for a charge of 'solicitation' - but probably not for a conviction. Some local LE dept's will allow their undercover cops to 'collect more extensive evidence' i.e. wait for the HJ/grinding lap dance to finish, tipping the dancer in addition to the private dance room charge, and THEN busting the dancer - which essentially guarantees a conviction (as well as improving the job satisfaction rating of the undercover cop).

    But in the final analysis, for many girls the distinction has no practical effect. For many girls, merely being charged is enough to do irreparable damage. This is because of the fact that, unless the girl in question can afford $5000+ to retain a major league attorney and mount a successful legal appeal to prove her innocence, she'll probably be stuck being defended by the club's attorney. Undoubtedly the club's attorney will steer her to a plea bargain deal in exchange for no jail time plus the club covering the fines and legal fees (and unbeknown to the dancer, the dropping of charges against the club itself is also probably an integral part of the deal and the primary interest of the club's attorney). Accepting the plea bargain deal will cost the dancer nothing out of her own pocket, and will allow her to be dancing again the very next night, but will also most likely leave a misdemeanor guilty/no contest plea on her permanent record - and with no actual trial or appeal ever having taken place to legally establish her actual guilt or innocence.

    If the truth be known, this gradual evolution of the exotic dancing business over the past few years such that, in many states and cities, 'normal' lap dances and club contact levels are now technically illegal, such that dancers can be busted at any time simply for doing their 'normal' job should local LE be given a reason to attract their attention to the club, is the major reason that I quit performing live.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-08-2005 at 09:12 PM.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by MinahSky
    I've got your back, Nic!
    Thanks, Minah!



    And thanks for answering my questions, Mel. I'm pretty sure you're right that the whole solicitation distinction is moot if they really wanna bust a club.

    For the record, I'll say that the girls who were busted at my club (thankfully, I wasn't one of them--but I think that was just pure luck more than anything else) ended up making some sort of plea bargain where they took "AR"--accelerated rehabilitation (?). I think it involved a period of probation (and possibly a fine), after which the incident was wiped from their records. So, happily, they didn't end up with criminal records.

    This was probably an option only for girls who had no prior record, and I'm really not 100% sure of the details, but that's what I recall....

    Also, I'm not sure about the whole "pot calling the kettle black" thing. I mean, I understand your point, but I think we all do what we're comfortable with. I'm fairly amoral, so I really, um, explored my boundaries, shall we say, within the sex industry. I found that I was okay with some things, while other things just made me feel kinda yucky. So I stuck to doing things that didn't make me feel yucky. It was more about personal comfort levels than value judgments.
    Last edited by Nicolina; 10-08-2005 at 09:54 PM.
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Also, I'm not sure about the whole "pot calling the kettle black" thing. I mean, I understand your point, but I think we all do what we're comfortable with. I'm fairly amoral, so I really, um, explored my boundaries, shall we say, within the sex industry. I found that I was okay with some things, while other things just made me feel kinda yucky. So I stuck to doing things that didn't make me feel yucky. It was more about personal comfort levels than judgment values.
    Again I'm not trying to make judgements either. The original poster was obviously 'comfortable' doing what she was doing, while other girls in her club were obviously 'comfortable' doing BJ's. My point was that both girls were in all probability doing things which are technically illegal, and which in all probability would both be grounds for a bust. Without causing offense, I was trying to point out that in real world terms the original poster 'calling out' the other dancers doing BJ's in her club is merely an exercise in self-delusion.

    If you want to be a dancer working in 'show business' (on the surface at least), today for the most part the only clubs where that is actually possible from a legal standpoint are the super-upscale low/no contact show clubs. If you're dancing in a club that offers full contact lap dances, you're working in the 'sex business' and very probably performing acts which are technically illegal on a nightly basis. Therefore any attempts to draw a dotted line between one set of illegal acts as being OK and another set of illegal acts being wrong is nothing more than a personal value judgement on the original poster's part.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    It's all about personal morals, isn't it?
    Obviously we don't all agree as to what is an extra and what isn't. So I think it is a personal choice.
    I've known girls that started out as the swetest things and couldn't look a guy in the face and graduated to jamming their hands down his pants and letting him have his way with her happy place. Sometimes it's all about the night and whether or not she's your friend (so you don't mind her making her money) or he's a great customer (so you let him slide a little.) Or even let him DO IT (because you are afraid that other girl he talks about will do it and he won't give you any more money.) <--- watched it happen once.
    There are so many factors that make us do or think what we think, that it's truly hard to decide what is an extra and what is downright prositution, what is ok and what we "never ever" do.
    Please don't lick me, it tickles..



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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    I do understand your point...but I also thought it was a valid question, just because it might clarify some of the discussions that take place on both sides of the board.

    I'm not crazy about the changes that have taken place in the industry, either. Hell, when I first started dancing, it really was a dancing job. Those days are long gone....

    But I'm curious, is it really true that nothing goes on in the "super-upscale" clubs? From what I've been reading around the board, those high-end clubs where they charge $900 for a VIP are not exactly...umm....pristine....

    And who can really blame a guy for expecting more than a few lapdances for his $900!?!?! Sure, there are some rare guys who don't mind dropping a couple grand in exchange for the good company of beautiful women who also happen to be intelligent and unconventional and a little rebellious (these are the Perfect Gentlemen...TOO comes to mind...) ....but I think most customers expect more than conversation for that kind of money, no matter how hot the chick is....
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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  23. #23
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    It's all about personal morals, isn't it?
    Obviously we don't all agree as to what is an extra and what isn't. So I think it is a personal choice.
    From the standpoint of an individual dancer's own psychological 'comfort' level, I completely agree this is a matter of personal value judgement. However, by the same principle, from a less personal standpoint this does not give one dancer who is working in an environment of performing one set of illegal acts on a routine basis the right to 'look down upon' another dancer who chooses to perform a different set of illegal acts that the second dancer is just as psychologically 'comfortable' with. Both girls are working in a club environment where the primary pursuit is 'sex business' ... both girls are performing acts which are technically illegal ... both girls are subjecting themselves to conditions which are ripe for a bust at any time. Why should girls who are 'comfortable' with performing more profitable illegal acts be 'looked down upon' for doing so ?

    But I'm curious, is it really true that nothing goes on in the "super-upscale" clubs? From what I've been reading around the board, those high-end clubs where they charge $900 for a VIP are not exactly...umm....pristine....
    Why do you think that I have repeatedly included the disclaimer 'on the surface at least' ? The main important difference with the 'super-upscale' clubs is the PERCEPTION on the part of the general public and local LE that the primary pursuit of such businesses is 'show business' not 'sex business'. This of course translates into vastly lower probabilities of such 'super-upscale' clubs being subject to anti-dance club crusades by local residents or to busts by local LE. As to what actually goes on in the dark corners of the champagne rooms ...
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-08-2005 at 10:07 PM.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    It was more about personal comfort levels than value judgments.
    oops. I meant judgment values.
    (Can you tell I've had a glass or two of wine? )
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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  25. #25
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    this does not give one dancer who is working in an environment of performing one set of illegal acts on a routine basis the right to 'look down upon' another dancer who chooses to perform a different set of illegal acts that the second dancer is just as psychologically 'comfortable' with.
    I couldn't agree more.



    Why do you think that I have repeatedly included the disclaimer 'on the surface at least' ?
    Ah. Somehow I missed that, Mel. (Again with the wine, perhaps....)
    The main important difference with the 'super-upscale' clubs is the PERCEPTION on the part of the general public and local LE that the primary pursuit of such businesses is 'show business' not 'sex business'. This of course translates into vastly lower probabilities of such 'super-upscale' clubs being subject to anti-dance club crusades by local residents or to busts by local LE. As to what actually goes on in the dark corners of the champagne rooms ...
    Oohhhhh, I totally get what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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