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Thread: The difference between extras and prostitution

  1. #26
    Featured Member thechaosfairy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Dictionary.com says:

    Extra
    adj.

    1. More than or beyond what is usual, normal, expected, or necessary.

    n.

    1. Something more than is usual or necessary.

    --

    Which is about where it's at. The word relates to what is usual versus what is beyond the usual; it's not a legal term.

    By the dictionary -- in a club that gives air dances only, breast-touching is an extra. In a club that's actually, intentionally a brothel, sex is not an extra.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Yeah, but we're talking about the subculture definition, not the dictionary definition...
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Featured Member Crow's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Plus you have the whole dancer unwritten rules to go by here - each club is diffrent with it's little quirks. Of course the basics are the same and once again it depends on the club itself and the rules and laws of the area it's in.

    My personal view is that extras have to do with sex itself, since we ( dancer/stripper(s) ) are a sexual image of perfection and a fantasy for most of a SC's patrons. As there are and always will be individuals that seek to push the limits of what is accptable - for lack of a better term.

    My two coppers.
    R

  4. #29
    Featured Member evan_essence's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    From the standpoint of an individual dancer's own psychological 'comfort' level, I completely agree this is a matter of personal value judgement. However, by the same principle, from a less personal standpoint this does not give one dancer who is working in an environment of performing one set of illegal acts on a routine basis the right to 'look down upon' another dancer who chooses to perform a different set of illegal acts that the second dancer is just as psychologically 'comfortable' with. Both girls are working in a club environment where the primary pursuit is 'sex business' ... both girls are performing acts which are technically illegal ... both girls are subjecting themselves to conditions which are ripe for a bust at any time. Why should girls who are 'comfortable' with performing more profitable illegal acts be 'looked down upon' for doing so ?
    Because it's all about what's usual and customary in a given setting. Dancers within a particular club have to stick together within some consensus of what's usual and customary in order to have a viable business model with respect to selling to the customer. If he can get a BJ for $10 from Dancer A while the others are following the usual and customary practice of charging $20 for a medium-contact lap dance without BJs, then the majority are going to start losing business. Different employees at McDonalds don't offer you different deals on Big Macs. This is the same thing. It's not a moral judgment against Dancer A; it's about having a standardized menu in order to project a consistent level of value for the services offered. Without that, the downhill slide of doing more and charging less begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    The main important difference with the 'super-upscale' clubs is the PERCEPTION on the part of the general public and local LE that the primary pursuit of such businesses is 'show business' not 'sex business'. This of course translates into vastly lower probabilities of such 'super-upscale' clubs being subject to anti-dance club crusades by local residents or to busts by local LE.
    Well, technically, I suspect the political "contributions" the super upscale clubs make have more to do with a lack of busts than what the politicians and law enforcement think is really going on there. Perhaps some don't know, but I bet many do. However, they can rest their inaction on what's called plausible denial. The "perception" gives them a palatable defense against religious zealots because local authorities can claim that "those damn liberal courts" render them powerless to do anything against the clubs of this sort.

    -Ev

  5. #30
    Featured Member evan_essence's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    ... However, I don't think that was the point of the original question. I think it was more to ask how different dancers define the term for themselves.
    Along that line, I hope some other dancers continue to chime in here with their definitions and perspective. I'd like to hear that personal viewpoint, too, rather than have the legal/philosophical angle become the only focus of the thread. I think the "big picture" is related and important, and in my case, it influences how I "feel" about the topic personally, but I didn't mean to stifle personal perspectives by pursuing the broader outlook. No reason we can't digest both if everyone agrees to play nice.

    -Ev

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence
    It's not a moral judgment against Dancer A; it's about having a standardized menu in order to project a consistent level of value for the services offered. Without that, the downhill slide of doing more and charging less begins.
    Well, I do agree with you there, Ev.

    Unfortunately, under the current system, I think the "downhill slide" is sort of inevitable. The only possible solution I can think of--which might or might not have the desired result but in any case will never happen in the U.S.--would be to decriminalize prostitution so that "extras clubs" could be forthcoming about what was actually on the menu.

    I am convinced, however, that not all men go to stripclubs looking to engage in sex acts. I am also convinced that, in your scenario, while dancer A would get the business of guys who were seeking a $10 blowjob, the other dancers wouldn't necessarily have to offer blowjobs to stay in business. They would find the customers who were seeking something different. Perhaps I'm being horribly naive here, but I don't think so.....

    Over on blue, I just found out that the club I regarded as a "moderate one-way contact club" was actually pretty well known for heavy two-way contact, and that it wasn't hard to get propositioned there. [Though the poster who made that claim isn't a regular here, I have a feeling he was being truthful....in fact, I have a feeling that it might've been a regular poster signing in under a different name....] Anyway, assuming that it is true, I managed to remain blissfully ignorant of the extras activity for years, and I made insane amounts of money there despite the presence of numerous girls who were apparently willing to go a lot further than I was.

    In other words, I believe that, even if strip-brothels were legal, there would still be a consumer base for clubs in which dancers did not double as prostitutes.

    Does anyone disagree? (I kinda wish the guys weren't verboten to post here....)
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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  7. #32
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Sorry if I'm going off-topic and/or expanding on the original question more than I ought.
    I just read your last post, Ev, and I agree that the opinions of individual dancers regarding where they draw this line for themselves are interesting and important.

    So I'll shut up now.
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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  8. #33
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsy_girlchild
    I've known girls that started out as the swetest things and couldn't look a guy in the face and graduated to jamming their hands down his pants and letting him have his way with her happy place.
    I think I have known a few of those as well. It is amazing how I watch peoples morals change for money. When I first started dancing someone told me a few very valuable lessons for which I am very grateful because it would have been a hard time learning them myself. First of all, "these girls are not your friends, they will stab you in the back, lie steal and cheat if given the oppertunity." isnt that the truth. The other one was, "draw yourself a line now of what is acceptable to you to do for money. No matter how much money is offered or how cute the guy is or even the combonation, do not under any curcumstances cross that line. If you do you will turn into nothing more than a stripper horror"
    Although I am sure most of you will not agree, I listened to these peices of advice an am very grateful I did. I have seen so many other girls turn into just that because they failed to listen to that advice if given to them. I am not sure I wouldnt have if not warned in the beginning and been on the lookout.

  9. #34
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    The other one was, "draw yourself a line now of what is acceptable to you to do for money. No matter how much money is offered or how cute the guy is or even the combonation, do not under any curcumstances cross that line.
    The sad part is that a dancer may draw herself a 'line' when she first starts dancing which is in a 'middle of the road' position relative to similar 'lines' drawn by other dancers in her club and other clubs in her city. This may initially provide that dancer with a competitive offering versus other dancers in town, and therefore provide her decent earnings potential. However, over time, if that dancer holds her own 'line' in the same place where she first drew it, it's highly likely that the similar 'lines' drawn by other dancers in her club and other clubs in her city will gradually keep moving as a result of financial pressures, general changes in the club climate etc. As a result, that dancer is likely to eventually find that her original 'line' now falls well short of being competitive, leaving her with a dilemma of moving her 'line' to stay competitive, hold her 'line' and earning peanuts, or moving to a different state/city where the club climate is better suited to the position of her 'line'.

  10. #35
    Featured Member evan_essence's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    I am convinced, however, that not all men go to stripclubs looking to engage in sex acts. I am also convinced that, in your scenario, while dancer A would get the business of guys who were seeking a $10 blowjob, the other dancers wouldn't necessarily have to offer blowjobs to stay in business. They would find the customers who were seeking something different. Perhaps I'm being horribly naive here, but I don't think so.....
    Here's my hypothesis. The idea that different customers seek different things is a factor to some extent, but I don't think it's the only relevant factor. The girl who's out of sync is destroying the customers' perceived value of the other services, especially if she's offering to do more for less. Take BJs totally out of the equation. If she's the only one offering 2 for 1 dances, that's the same problem. If BJs are in the equation as part of the business model, she ought to be charging a higher price for it than a standard lap dance so as to reinforce the relative perceived value of the entire menu.

    I know applying these concepts to the sex industry has an absurd sound to it, as if I'm satirizing marketing principles, but I don't really see why this is any different than any other business. At a salon, the beauticians are often independent contractors paying the business owner to have a station. You generally don't find one of them offering cut rates compared to the others because the owner knows that's not a viable business model. If a competing salon drops prices, they might have to adjust (and not necessarily with cheaper prices but possibly better value), but they're not being pressured from within their own business structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Over on blue, I just found out that the club I regarded as a "moderate one-way contact club" was actually pretty well known for heavy two-way contact, and that it wasn't hard to get propositioned there. [Though the poster who made that claim isn't a regular here, I have a feeling he was being truthful....in fact, I have a feeling that it might've been a regular poster signing in under a different name....] Anyway, assuming that it is true, I managed to remain blissfully ignorant of the extras activity for years, and I made insane amounts of money there despite the presence of numerous girls who were apparently willing to go a lot further than I was.
    You're right that it's an assumption. His assertion does not automatically make his observation valid and yours invalid, nor vice versa. What did he conduct - a scientific phone survey of customers? You worked there. You made insane amounts of money from a customer base happy without extras. Seems to me just as likely that the club's reputation was what you thought it was and his experience was the exception. We don't even know details or timeframes. Perhaps his observation is also correct but was an indication things were changing during the end of your employment period. Meanwhile, shall we simply dismiss all the stories from dancers who've reported they were impacted negatively by this trend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    In other words, I believe that, even if strip-brothels were legal, there would still be a consumer base for clubs in which dancers did not double as prostitutes.
    You may be covering different ground here than my hypothesis. Sounds like you're claiming that different clubs could successfully cater to different target audiences. I don't dispute that. I'm saying there's got to be consensus about the range of services and price points within a particular club, as opposed to everyone doing their own thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    (I kinda wish the guys weren't verboten to post here....)
    Ah, they're not verboten. Merely - pardon my sketchy German - nicht anwendbar.

    -Ev

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    Veteran Member Phedre's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    I define extras as going beyond the a viewer and entertainer relationship. I provide a visual entertainment, not physical entertainment. When I do a LD I let the custy know when we go into VIP that I do the dancing and he does the enjoying. If it gets to a point that he would prefer to be my entertainment (by getting slapped/kicked/kneed/ or otherwise embarassed and ousted from the VIP area) or wants to touch me intimately then we have crossed the line of my visual entertaining services and the dance will cease.

    I do not think that closed mouth kisses are an extra, any exchange of body fluids or touching places that there are body fluids is considered extra IMO. Does that make sense?
    Phedre
    ~ my very own pole dancer!

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    In other words, I believe that, even if strip-brothels were legal, there would still be a consumer base for clubs in which dancers did not double as prostitutes.
    This is undoubtedly true. And in areas where the bust risk is low, you can find customers seeking a 'show' right alongside customers seeking 'extras' in the same club. However, in areas where the bust risk is rising, those customers seeking a 'show' are going to start avoiding contact high clubs like the plague ... and will instead gravitate to super-upscale 'show clubs' where the bust risk is essentially zero. Again this is wonderful for the 10% of girls who can 'make the cut' and get hired at the super-upscale 'show clubs' as these transplanted risk-adverse customers add to its customer base, but it directly impacts those dancers who can't escape the 'extras' environment of a regular club and who must now compete 'stroke for stroke' with other dancers for a remaining customer base which expects to be 'stroked'.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina
    Yeah, but we're talking about the subculture definition, not the dictionary definition...
    Further, and more importantly, it is not a relevant legal term.

    It is just a word used in this industry to describe a nebulous set of actions which may or may not get you in trouble.

    "Officer, I did not do any extras and never have. Ask anyone."
    "What you did, regardless of what you do or don't call it, here in C*****i, that is illegal. You are not to touch your customers anywhere nor approach them closer than 3 feet, regardless of club rules. The club is in violation also."
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    A dancer should never let herself be defended on prostitution charges by the club's attorney. There is a tremendous conflict of interest, as it is in the club's interest to take a position, rather than defending the dancer, of saying that the dancer was a "renegade" who acted contrary to all club policy, club management had no idea what a whore she was, etc.

    The dancer's best position is to deny that she committed any improper acts, or, if she did, it was the result of entrapment.

    The club's best position may well be not to deny that the dancer did anything wrong, but to argue that management wasn't aware of what the dancer was doing.

    Under these circumstances, the dancer is better off with an assistant public defender than with the club's attorney. If the club wants to help out the dancers (and, in all fairness, the best outcome for the club is for the dancers to be acquitted), then let the club pay the bills of an attorney picked by the dancer, not by the club...with a good sized retainer up front, so there is no issue of club management trying to "steer" the defense in a certain direction.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    Under these circumstances, the dancer is better off with an assistant public defender than with the club's attorney. If the club wants to help out the dancers (and, in all fairness, the best outcome for the club is for the dancers to be acquitted), then let the club pay the bills of an attorney picked by the dancer, not by the club...with a good sized retainer up front, so there is no issue of club management trying to "steer" the defense in a certain direction.
    Yeah, yeah, lots of luck on that proposal. What WILL typically happen is this. The club will promise the busted dancers that it will provide an attorney to defend them free of charge, and will also promise to pay bail plus pay any fines when the charges are finally 'resolved', and will also promise that the dancers won't do any jail time whatsoever. In exchange, the club will expect the dancers to take the club's attorney's advice. So the busted dancers are not out of pocket one dollar, the busted dancers are released on bail which the club paid for, and the busted dancers are able to return to work the very next night. However ...

    The club's attorney will be pitching the DA that he can deliver 'no contest' pleas from every single dancer. Doing so will avoid ALL that court paperwork, ALL that city legal and court cost. Doing so will also give the DA and local politicians the headlines they are looking for. And in exchange, all the DA has to do is drop any/all charges against the club/clubowner. So the only 'losers' in the deal are the dancers who don't realize that by copping a 'no contest' plea they are technically pleading guilty, that the bust and technical guilty plea will be put on their permanent record, and that they are slamming the door on any future right to appeal (i.e. when they finally go to apply for a dancer's license or straight job and discover what their previous plea bargain really means).

    Under these circumstances, the dancer is better off with an assistant public defender than with the club's attorney. If the club wants to help out the dancers (and, in all fairness, the best outcome for the club is for the dancers to be acquitted), then let the club pay the bills of an attorney picked by the dancer, not by the club...with a good sized retainer up front, so there is no issue of club management trying to "steer" the defense in a certain direction.
    This is probably true. However, it also means that the dancer herself must come up with typically $500 in cash bail money at the time she was busted or spend the next night or 2 or 3 in the county lockup awaiting trial. It also means that the dancer is placing herself in a position of facing a local yokel judge and jury with nothing more than the word of the dancer versus the word of a well respected cop in her own defense, with the very real potential of spending some time in the county lockup if the jury of jealous housewives, bible thumpers, and civil servants don't believe her innocence and choose to apply a harsher sentence - BESIDES having a lower court guilty verdict appear on her permanent record.

    It is definitely true that if a dancer really didn't do anything which blatantly qualifies as prostitution that she can beat the charge on appeal. However, filing an appeal requires the dancer herself to come up with $2-3-5,000 in legal fees and potential court costs out of her own pocket to prove her innocence, in addition to the previous bail money and fine money leveed by the lower court.

    Realistically speaking, very few dancers are properly prepared (financially or legally) to prove their innocence. Realistically speaking, choosing the public defender route over the club's attorney's plea bargain arrangement is only likely to cost the dancer $500 in bail money plus several days in jail ... with the same guilty finding and the same black mark on her permanent record when all is said and done ... is the only viable choice if the dancer isn't financially and legally prepared to take her case to the appellate level.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-10-2005 at 05:41 PM.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    The public defender is not much more than a court-appointed babysitter. If you're honest about your income, you probably don't even qualify. Regardless, all they're there to do is walk you through the judicial process to make sure the court proceedings go correctly in a very limited technical sense. Using a public defender is better than the incredibly egotistical defendants who try to defend themselves, because those clueless laymen can get even the most simple technical things wrong. But, in most jurisdictions, the public defenders are so overworked and underpaid that they don't have time to mount a good legal strategy for you. In some locations, they're so chummy with the prosecutors that they don't represent you well in those negotiations either. (My apologies for overgeneralizing this issue to every idealistic public defender who works his/her butt off.)

    Every dancer really needs to save up that $5,000 Melonie is talking about in her own "legal defense fund" to retain her own attorney. Shop for one in advance who actually has a track record of doing a good job for defendants without overcharging. It doesn't hurt if it's an attorney who has a good reputation in the community and has social connections to all the right people in power.

    -Ev

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    Default Re: The difference between extras and prostitution

    I think of extras as anything that I would do with my boyfriend, or would like to have done to me by my boyfriend. I usually do totally different things with customers and try never to do things that I'd do to my boyfriend because then I numb myself to that action and it doesn't turn me on with him anymore, it's ruined.

    The only extra I ever did was traveling and working in a strict no contact topless club in Denver, and I come from a full nude contact club in Ohio so of course I did what I was comfortable with, flashing some crotch (and oh boy you should have seen the guys' eyes bug out, it was hilarious since it's so normal for me, plus I got major tips), and doing a little bit of contact (tits in face, light rubbing, light grinding)...and just kept an eye out for the manager...hey, I was only there for a couple days and I needed vacation money! I never let guys touch me anywhere besides below the knee though. But working in that type of atmosphere was funny, at my club the guys are so desensitized by full nudity and contact that they always want more, and it was refreshing to have guys be more than satisfied with even a watered down version of how things worked at my club back home.

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