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Thread: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

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    Senior Member gelsey's Avatar
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    Sad girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    starting off I want to make very clear that I am NOT AN EXTRAS girl.
    When I started out I decided early on that I would not be, and would avoid it at all costs. But durning my first VIP session I found that it is harder than it seems to avoid.....let me explain...

    first of all I am a college student, and currently taking a class on gender and violence here is a resource from that class that will help:

    What is consensual sexual behavior and what is not?
    its comes in stages....but how can you be sure what is and what is not....it depends on the situation and what is going on (what words come to mind)
    consensual- love, respect, communication, trust, comfortable to say no

    seduced- lust, candles, music, trying to get to a sexy place, propesition, effort, can say no with some akwardness

    Manipulated- heavy drinking, guilt motivated, ultimatums, no fun or sweetness, bribery, intimidated, money, intimidation, not comfortable to say no/ very difficult to say no

    Coerced- controling, threat of isolation, power struc. is not equal, desertion, drugs/ drinking, used as status, feels like you have no options, scaried to say no

    forced- physical force, not options, no voice, slefish, verbal threats, weapons, lack of control, dehumanizing, no is not a option

    --notes taken from Vilence and Gender, Women's Studies 120 at Minnesota State Uinversity, Mankato in Fall 2005 taught by Deirdre Rosenfeld director of the Women's Center

    I recently started dancing (this happend on my 5th night dancing) it was my first time working at a club with a VIP area. It was rented out for the entire night by a party of 3 men. One of the dancers that knew the men introduced the dancers to the men and then the men choose the dancers who they wanted to bring back with them. Money is suppost to be given up front ($100 or so for a half hour) and it has cameras. I ended up being invited back by one of the men and a dancer was sent to get me, this dancer has danced there for years and knew the men well. We started by hanging out talking some and haveing a few drinks. I was super nervous because I didnt know what was expected of me. I had yet to see a dime and no one moved to give me any. I started to give a man a lap dance but was called out to do a stage set and told the man that I would return. After the set I talked to the owner about the money, when would I get paid for my time? people are asking me for lap dances do I say no to them and go back to the man? he said I should ask the man about settleing the money. so I did I said that normal we get the money up front and that it would be $100 for a half hour. He talked with the other dancer and one of the other men and they said it was all taken care of...we had to be tiped....at that time I didnt want to raise more of a stink and ask when I would see the money (I should have) but was told that I would be tiped as the time went on. the man asked me to start danceing, asked me to play with my nipples/ play with my breast...all of which is part of a normal lap dance. This is when it started to get bad....he started taking dirty asking if I liked what I was doing to my self (yeah I know guys do this) and demanding that I answer, I looked to the other girls in the room and the dancer that orginzed the room to see their reaction, they looked at me like I should answer. so I played along. I wasnt sure what he wanted from me, he kept giveing me horrable looks as I danced as I normaly do, and then he started directing me. It started off fine show me your ass...but then turned uncomfortable...I looked at the other dancer and she didnt give my any clue that what I was doing was wrong. NOONE ever told me that I couldnt do that. (I would rather not say what I was doing,but it was not sex or any sexual favors preformed on him or any other dancer) he kept talking dirty to the point that it was just lude. I didnt feel that I could stop, I didnt want to piss him off and end up with no money and the other dancers didnt give me any clue that I should stop, then the owner walked in and said I was busted "you cant play with your self". I just about started crying right there....the man got up to go to the bathroom, and I went to the dressing room.
    changed clothes and made up my mind that I was not going back to the VIP...my travel partner came in and I started bawling, she told me that I almost got kicked out of the club.....I have never felt so small or helpless. I felt like I had no control at all, I felt like I had no options, felt cheap and that I I had totaly failed my self.
    my friend talked to the owner and the other dancer and they got my money for me (not all of it but some) I wasnt able to stay in the dressing room for very long because of a stage set, that made me feel better (reminded me why I like dancing and that I could make money and not let some guy push me around) my friend gave me a pep talk and reminded me that I would be pissed at my self later if I let what happend end my night, get out there and make money the way I do not the way some dick wants me too.
    after some thought through out the rest of the night I know I was manuipulated out of my boundries.
    later on the other dancer apoligized to us for his behavior, and so did his buddies...in fact they sent him home and promised the owner they would never bring him back again..
    I told the owner I was never again avalible for VIP

    the lesson to take from this:
    know the rules, if you are not sure what they are make a list and grill the owners AND bouncer. dont be shy be fucking blunt, THERE IS NO TRAINING FOR THIS JOB< YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN

    get the money up front so you are in total control

    dont look to other dancers to gage what is right, or what is right for you

    remember the sisterhood is powerful, I couldnt have gotten through the rest of the night without the other girls on my side...dont forget we are all in the same boat

    please dont judge me....I want to share my crap so you dont have to feel like I did.

  2. #2
    242_fair
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    It sounds like you are easily manipulated and so maybe this business is not for you.

    You weren't able to say no when it counts.

    Plus you masturbated yourself in a room full of people for just $100!! wtf?

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    Veteran Member Natalia108's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Quote Originally Posted by 242_fair
    It sounds like you are easily manipulated and so maybe this business is not for you.

    You weren't able to say no when it counts.

    Plus you masturbated yourself in a room full of people for just $100!! wtf?
    i couldnt have said this better myself

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    Featured Member hannah83's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    i'm proud of her for posting this in the first place. she did this to let the newbies learn from her...not to be judged. Don't you think she's already beating herself up over this? She doesn't need us to yell @ her too.

    yes, she was naive and manipulated...but she realized she was wrong and won't do it again.

    I think it would be good for newbies to read this, b/c who knows...it could happen to them too.

    just my
    There's a wild side behind every innocent face.

    End violence against women.
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    Featured Member Crow's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Good points but still.. ew.

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    God/dess colleen's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Gelsey--

    Thanks for posting this. When you are new in the business, it is easy to get manipulated past your boundaries b/c you really don't know where they are yet, and you also don't have the experience to see what is coming.

    You already know this from you class, but it is very easy to get pushed too far by steps, so that each little nudge past your boundaries does not seem like any big deal and before you know it, you are doing something you never in a million years believed you would. I have been in this situation, both working and in relationships. With time and practice, you will lern to see and avoid these situations, and how to stop them.

    I am glad it was only a little masturbation show you got talked into doing, not something worse. And it is probably a good thing the MGR busted in wehn he did, otherwise who knows how far this would have gone.

    Some of the girls on this board can be a little harsh with newbies. I too have been told that this is not the business for me. Don't let that bother you. YOu have your reasons for dancing, so just live and learn. Next time, you will know what to do.

    Also, don't avoid VIP if you can make more $$ there. Why let one stupid asshole mess with your money?

    Now, go knock 'em dead!


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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I live in MN too, what club is this? I don't want to work there...

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    Veteran Member Kharisma's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I totally agree with what colleen said. YOu are still learning your boundries. Dont take the critism to heart. This is supposed to be a forum for support and i think some of the girls forget that from time to time. Keep your head up, learn from your mistakes and make money!!!!!! Dont stop doing VIP's just make sure you let the guys know what is/isnt allowed up front so they dont expect any more from you. Good luck sweetie!

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    Veteran Member calliope7's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I agree with hannah83, when your new and you don't know what your doing customers can sense that and will try to take advantage of you. You shouldn't feel bad, you learned your lesson and are establishing your limits.

    I've been dancing a little over a month now and my no's to extras requests at first were really passive and I put up with to much bullshit like repeated attempts to put hands where should not go. Since then my no's have gotten much firmer and guys get the message and rarely attempt try stuff a second time.

    I think this is a good thread for newbies. Call me naive but when I first started I was really surprised by how manipulative custies can be sometimes. Its all about learning to project that you are the one in control and that you're not going to put up with any crap.

  10. #10
    Pamela
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Ya know i think that perhaps she may not have or does have the ability to be a dancer. She messed up. It could have been worse.

    Actually it is. She has to live with this. That sucks.

    She also broke the law, and could have gone to jail. That sucks. She took many risks, got caught up in a moment.

    That is the whole point here. Doing "dirty" work at work is ONLY a moment. The moment passes, what a "clean" dancer who fucked up is left with is nothing more than a passing moment. They money does not count if you feel guilt.

    She may have much guilt, shame etc.

    If you start to feel weak...it's time to change the situation. That is the only advice i can give. Money is NOT every thing at that moment!!! Your reputation is!

    By NOT performing illegal activities in the work place you last longer, are more happy, and get your head set straight.

    Again, if you feel weak because there is money tempting you move from the situation. Because if you play by the rules more money comes to you in the long run, and you keep your job!!!!

    Is not hard. It's self control. I think all dancers need to practice and use it!!! Lord knows i was a friction dancer, but this was alowed in a few clubs. Still the feeling for me felt right! Masturbation inside the work place is a big no-no. She knows this. And i hope she learned from this, because other dancers can eat you alive, make your job hell knowing you have done this. Honestly, i would have been one to starve you out of the club. That is what happens.

    Good luck,

    Pamela

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Honestly, hon, I don't think it is that big a deal. I still respect you. The guy in question probably had no idea that it was against the rules either - I mean, I think it's weird in a strip club if you aren't even allowed to touch YOURSELF. But, hey, I'm a skank who is past her prime. I also think it's odd how everyone else handled it. The manager, if you were new, could have just told you that it was against the rules, rather than busting you, and nearly throwing you out. That is not normal - normally they would warn you and let you know. And I would, if I realized that you were new and didn't know the club boundaries, have interfered if I were one of the other dancers. Plus - his buddies sent him home without making him pay his bill? Assholes.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    The one thing that kinda bothers me is that somewhere in your mind you must have thought (before entering this buisness) that dancers probably do "this" too for $. It just has an undertone of what people percive all dancers to be like. Usually it comes from guys who think this of strippers,but in this case it came from you,a girl. This I think is so wrong.

    But,anyways you learned,you wont do it again,you now know this is not a normal thing us dancers do for $. Now go get that money girl,and take no prisioners! :-)

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    Veteran Member Phedre's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I think your post will help some of the newbies figure out how to establish some boundaries. Going into a club and having only 5 nights under your belt without having another trustable dancer in the VIP with you in the situation.... well it was bound to happen that you would cross boundaries you didn't really want or mean too. It sounds like you have learned from the whole experience, so I am sure you'll remember that when it comes to other new girls that get into the same situation.
    Phedre
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    Veteran Member funtasticFerra's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I am soo soo sorry that this happened to you! I completely understand how you must be feeling. You would think that the girls in there with you would have told you what was accepted and what was considered wrong. I think that dancers who've been in the business forget sometimes what it's like to be new and not know what the rules are! It's not like someone actually lays it all out for you before you go into the VIP or give a dance! It's hard sometimes to know what is okay and what is not.
    I really appreciate you writing this down for us new girls to read! I think it's wonderful that you want to help us out by sharing your experience!
    don't let this incident teeter on your mind for too long! Get out there and make your money honey! And if you don't want to do VIP than don't. it's your choice isn't it!

    I wish you well! Good luck!
    "When life gets rough turn up the music and dance a little"

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    Member Jackson Roikirk's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I wish I could appologise for all the men who do this to you girls and have it mean something Sadly, too many men have shmucks disease with no cure in site. These "men" do in fact think of you all as sex toys who are not worthy of any human decency or consideration, something to be used for their pleasure then thrown away. They have no honor and deserve nothing your contempt.

  16. #16
    Pamela
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson Roikirk
    I wish I could appologise for all the men who do this to you girls and have it mean something Sadly, too many men have shmucks disease with no cure in site. These "men" do in fact think of you all as sex toys who are not worthy of any human decency or consideration, something to be used for their pleasure then thrown away. They have no honor and deserve nothing your contempt.
    Whoa wait! We are NOT victims! It only happens if WE let it. So it's not "oh poor us." This is just the way i a reading into this message here, not against you.

    I have to say you are a tad off however. Many men do not think of us as sex toys in the clubs! I can't tell you how many times a dancer will get paid for conversation only!!!!

    As for the "these" men and what happens. it's the DANCERS choice. We are in control in the club with a customer.....Always!

    Pamela

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    Veteran Member Phedre's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Pamela is right, we have to be in control and are not victims. That is something the OP is just learning, she didn't know how to respond to the situation so she has to accept that she fucked up that time and she now knows what boundaries are appropriate after going thru the experience.

    I do think it was SHITTY of the other dancers not to say anything. I don't know if they knew she was such a newbie or what, but had I been in their shoes I would have told the girl to leave the VIP if the guy was behaving like that. It sounds like she kept looking to them to see if his behavior was something she was supposed to tolerate and they didn't give her any responses so being new to group Vip's maybe she didn't understand how far she was supposed to let a guy take his commenting ~~ and now she does.
    Phedre
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    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I'm glad you posted this.

    This is a perfect example of why girls need to be trained, and why the very common club practice of simply throwing girls on the floor is a bad idea. New girls don't know their own limits, especially YOUNG new girls. They also don't know what is standard in the business, or what is or isn't acceptable for $x. They know what they're told, and unfortunately, that is all too often what some customer tells them. Why do you think so many custies like newbies? Why do you think raincoaters seek them out? Because they don't know the deal, and haven't yet gained the confidence or whatever to say NO.

    I feel for you girls just starting the biz now. It's very unfortunate that clubs don't provide any sort of training the way many used to. Thankfully we at least have SW, where we can teach each other and hopefully learn from others' mistakes.

    Gelsey, I hope what you take away from this is that 1) it's ultimately up to you to set your limits - no one will do it for you and 2) you have to be more assertive in asking for your money and saying no to being pushed, because some custies will push you just for sport. If you find you continually are unable to assert yourself and avoid being pushed, then this business is certainly not for you. If you can learn to maintain control, you'll be fine.

    Good luck

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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I'm kinda with Jenny in that I don't think what you did was all that bad, objectively. (There are girls at my club that simulate masturbation on stage, for no money...cultural differences? whatever)

    Yes, you should have said no when you were unsure...I would have blatantly said "no one else is doing this, so I'm not going to either" or something, but I understand the uncomfortable situation. I have been dancing for only three and a half months now, and I can tell you, being the new girl sucks. Customers will manipulate you first chance they get, managers could care less, Djs will proposition/ seduce you, guys will try to rip you off, some tell you you're beautiful, others mince no words telling you how 'you're so not their type'.....

    At first girls were nice and welcoming to me, then suddenly they were frigid and hostile when I started making more money, and now they have at best a chilly respect (some are now quite friendly, some are still bitchy bitchy, but I honestly don't give a shit anymore). I mean, to a certain extent every workplace is full of psychological warfare. Focus on the good, try not to make the same mistake twice, and move on. Good luck to you.

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    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    I am so sorry that happen to you, My first time I started dancing no one taught me anything! They did not have any rules "nothing" explain to me. I wacth the other dancers first! my club was not a nudity club so I guess I was lucky compared to you! I did'nt care what they said others dancer did I told them this is what I do! I will have men bagging to eat me out, and touch them! I Told them no! I know some girls my not be as bold as me. But I don't like to be control. I was not going to let some man make me feel like crap! I do believe If somebody was there to help me because I was a first timer I would have learn quicker about certain things.
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  21. #21
    tampafldancer
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Quote Originally Posted by 242_fair
    It sounds like you are easily manipulated and so maybe this business is not for you.

    You weren't able to say no when it counts.

    Plus you masturbated yourself in a room full of people for just $100!! wtf?

    When dancers start dancing we are all "thrown to the wolves" to fend for ourselves. I know when I started I had no freaking clue what all the rules were even though the bare minimum was explained.

    She was new and manipulated. Lesson learned, that doesn't mean she doesn't have what it takes to be a dancer. Mistakes are made and I know for a fact that that mistake is a lesser mistake then most in this industry.

    Ok.. yea 100 bucks... She doesn't know her worth. But the money doesn't matter anyway. She succumbed to manipulation because she was unaware of her role as a dancer.

    The underlining question now is whether or not she lets it HAPPEN again.


    I feel for her. This industry is rough.

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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Quote Originally Posted by pr317
    I've only been at this for a few months but I'm getting pretty f-ing sick of it! I don't even care anymore if I lose the customer because he wants more than I'm willing to do!
    Oh pr317, sorry you feel this way! Don't quit! Stick with me and we'll take the bastards for all they're worth. And if some guy is a dick to you again, point him out to me and I'll 'accidentally' dump my drink on him and sick the dj on him, ahaha.

    seriously, if it sucks, we should check out the better money across the river. Hang in there!

  23. #23
    Veteran Member A.n.a.l.a.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    can i borrow your list? i always knew that the majority of the sex sessions i had with my second ex fiance weren't right (doesn't matter if i physically enjoyed them) but i couldn't place my finger on what it was....

  24. #24
    Member Jackson Roikirk's Avatar
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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Thats cool Pamela. Good men have a tendancy to be protective of women. When I read posts like this one, that trait kind of comes to the surface. I know women can be tough if they have to, but in the end run women are pretty felines, men are grizlly bears

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    Default Re: girls learn from me...extras can be harder to avoid than you think!

    Listen it was a lesson learned.... and it could have been much worse. AS someon eelse already said... there are far worse mistake a dancer can make! It was just touching yourself... and know you know that is not in your comfort zone. Be thankful you did not touch his nasty dick or anything. Don't be too hard on yourself.
    Another thing.... do not TRUST those horrible dancers who did not help you out. It's funny how the one dancer who knew the men apologized AFTER THE FACT... but where was she during the situation. Keep it on a hi/ bye basis if any of those dancers try to talk to you. NEVER anything more because they should have let you know.
    Good luck and its good in a way that you learned a personal boundary early on in the game... things will be much easier now aslong as you stay assertive and stick to your principles. =)

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