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Thread: GM Plant closings

  1. #1
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default GM Plant closings

    30,000 jobs about to disappear.

    The following areas will be effected by closings:

    GM said the assembly plants that will close are in Oklahoma City, Lansing, Mich., Spring Hill, Tenn., Doraville, Ga., and Ontario, Canada. A shift also will be removed at a plant in Moraine, Ohio.

    An engine facility in Flint, Mich., will close, along with a separate powertrain facility in Ontario and metal centers in Lansing and Pittsburgh.

    Wagoner said GM also will close three service and parts operations facilities. They are in Ypsilanti, Mich., and Portland, Ore. One other site will to be announced later.







    They hope these will save $7,000,000,000.00 - how much you wanna bet some of that money is going to be saved right out of your pockets?

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    This is actually only a tiny fraction of the 'union payscale' manufacturing jobs which are either being terminated altogether or mutated via bankruptcy declarations into 'competitive wage rate' jobs. Ford has made their own announcements regarding cutbacks of 1750 jobs. Delphi and Visteon 'subdivisions' are both facing bankruptcy (Delphi is already IN bankruptcy), with pressure to convert $25+ per hour jobs to the $10-12 per hour they are actually worth in terms of added value. From the auto industry you can move directly to the airline industry, with more than 1/2 the airlines in bankruptcy dropping jobs and demanding wage/benefit concessions. Then you can move sideways to the IT industry, where huge numbers of white collar jobs are being outsourced and/or huge numbers of H1B white collar workers are being 'imported' for pay rates well below those American workers had typically been getting. Not wanting to get political, but given the gov't regulations, taxes, labor/safety restrictions and union wage demands faced by US companies, versus the lack of same overseas, it should come as no surprise that very few US companies can afford to keep doing business in the same way. It should also come as no surprise that within the next couple of years that living standards of many American 'union pay scale' workers and 'white collar' workers are going to decline.

    As to the exotic dancing industry, we are certainly a 'discretionary expenditure' item in club customers' budgets. When $25+ an hour jobs turn into $10-12 an hour jobs, the mortgage payment, groceries, and utility bills still come first, but there is now little or no money left for 'discretionary expenditures'. This will indeed lead to reduced levels of club business, and greater expecations regarding 'bang for the buck' by remaining club customers, as it already has in areas where earlier industries have already gone bankrupt.

    As always, one would expect that super-upscale 'show clubs' will escape the brunt of this phenomenon. Regarding super-upscale club customers, rich is rich, such that there will still be tons of money floating around in the super-upscale 'show clubs'. The unfortunate part of course is that perhaps 20% of exotic dancers (at most) will ever be allowed the opportunity to work in the super-upscale 'show club' environment

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    The big three really dont have a chance sorry to say and I tend to believe they will not exist another 20 years - they just cant compete with the foreign market .

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    If one does survive, my money is on Ford.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    The big three really dont have a chance sorry to say and I tend to believe they will not exist another 20 years - they just cant compete with the foreign market
    Again not meaning to get political, but they all can compete FROM the foreign market ... which is precisely why GM is expanding manufacturing operations in Asia/China as fast as it plans to close manufacturing facilities in the US and Canada. The competiveness problems mostly stem from the extra costs of paying union wages and following union work rules, plus the costs of environmental compliance, occupational safety compliance, mandated benefit costs (i.e workmen's comp, SSI/medicare) which apply in North America and which exist at a far lower level in Asia/China.

    In the end, we in North America will probably achieve the ideal goals of no industrial pollution from automakers, no worker injuries at automakers etc. - because there won't be any automakers still manufacturing in North America (rhetorical statement). However, I don't savor the thought of anyone having to dance at a blue collar Asian/Chinese strip club pay scale and work environment, which is likely to be the ultimate 'trickle down' effect of globalization on our industry.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    I believe GM has publicly stated (I wish I could remember where I read it) that their long term goal is to be a sales and marketing company, not a manufacturer in the strict sense. They have steadily been moving in that direction. They have been outsourcing component parts for years and no doubt that will continue. For example, here in my local area there are several smallish manufucturing companies that make the body side moldings and window and windshield "reveal" moldings for GM. And the workers make the $7-12 Melonie mentioned rather than the $25 per hour union rates.

    It will be difficult for GM to outsource the final assembly operations and thus far they have kept those tightly under the GM umbrella. Those plants are huge with mega millions invested. But who knows.

    I hope GM and the other domestic manufacturers can figure out a way to survive. Its not just the direct automotive employment but also the thousands of support companies that are at risk. The unions will have to take a hard look at their philosphies and no doubt either give a little (or maybe a lot) or face their demise.

    FBR
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Its not just the direct automotive employment but also the thousands of support companies that are at risk.
    On the contrary; it's the private, non-union enterprises in the Midwest that will be chomping at the bit to capitalize on the pending implosion of Visteon and Delphi. And they'll do it cheaper, and better.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    On the contrary; it's the private, non-union enterprises in the Midwest that will be chomping at the bit to capitalize on the pending implosion of Visteon and Delphi. And they'll do it cheaper, and better
    True, US based non-union enterprises in the Midwest will probably be able to produce components at a far cheaper price than Visteon or Delphi presently due, considering that they will be paying workers say $12 an hour instead of $25 an hour. But from the standpoint of a dancer working in a club in the Midwest, instead of having a customer base which has been earning $1000 a week at Delphi she will now have a customer base which is earning $500 a week at the non-union enterprise. If those customers both have $400 a week worth of fixed costs of living i.e. mortgage payment, car payment, food, utilities, etc. the 'discretionary' spending by the non-union customer base will only be 1/6th that of the Delphi employee ... which will probably leave very little 'discretionary' spending taking place in clubs !

    There's also the issue that if US non-union suppliers can produce parts at significantly cheaper prices than Visteon or Delphi, offshore non-union suppliers can produce parts at prices which are WAY cheaper than US non-union suppliers (since offshore suppliers pay say $1.50 per hour versus $12, with lower compliance costs for environmental, worker safety, mandated benefits etc.). The risk is that if the automakers' are going to have to go through the grief of reorganizing their supply chain and approving new parts suppliers, that they may just decide to extend that supply chain all the way to Asia. If that is the case, then the Midwest workers and Midwest club dancers will both be out of luck !

    I would also specifically add that many of the GM plant closings are targeted towards plants in Canada, where the environmental, worker safety, and mandated benefits costs are the highest. "Canadian jobs in danger could number more than 3,000, some Canadian Auto Workers union leaders believe, if GM shuts its transmission plant in Windsor, Ont., and a parts plant in St. Catharines, Ont., and eliminates a shift of production at one of its car plants in Oshawa, Ont. GM employs 20,000 workers in Canada." ( from globeandmail.com ). Considering that Ontario's economy is already at a 3:1 ratio of service sector to goods producing sector (versus a 2:1 ratio in Michigan), the elimination of GM jobs in Ontario is likely to have the greatest impact on related 'service' businesses. If you then add in the fact that many of the affected US GM & Delphi plants are immediately across the border from Canada (i.e. Detroit area, Buffalo NY), and that employees of these plants contribute to the customer base of Canadian 'border' clubs (i.e. Windsor-Sarnia, Ft. Erie-Niagara Falls), from the perspective of dancers in these areas it's not a pretty picture from either side of the border.
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-22-2005 at 02:43 AM.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    First, the example Melonie quotes about the discretionary income of persons making 50K vs 25K is not accurate. The very vast majority of people making 50 K do not have nondiscretionary expenses equal to a person making 25K. They have bigger houses, they have bigger cars, they have more cars, summer homes, and heat larger homes. The discretionary income of 50K union job workers is closer to 2.5 times that of a $25K income person, not 6 times.

    Second, the Korean and European and Japanese auto workers who would get the jobs because people are buying imported cars rather than over-priced, often badly designed GM cars spend $0.00 in US strip clubs now and will spend $0.00 in the future. The poor schlub who buys an over-priced GM car has fewer dollars to spend on SC's because his car payment is higher. One cannot make the case that 100% of the lower cost to consumers from lower priced vehicles, of better quality "evaporates", yet 100% of the lower wages come out of spending at SC's.

    It is true that a disproportional impact falls on clubs catering to autoworkers, but 5% of SC customers are autoworkers in that area, but damn close to 100% of SC customers are autobuyers. It is but mere evolution, and if it always were for the worst, the cure for all of societies ills would be to subsidize "cave-man club' manufacturers to get the economy growing.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Monty, your in-depth analysis of 'discretionary income' is undoubtedly true ... but my simplistic outlook makes for a better example of autoworker 'pay cuts' translating directly to reduced/eliminated spending in strip clubs. An in-depth analysis of 'discretionary spending' habits would show that other types of discretionary spending i.e. restaurant meals, movies, etc. are more likely to be retained when discretionary income drops, with strip club visits a more likely target of elimination.

    As your other comment about Asian autoworkers alludes to, it is disconcerting that the US and Canadian economies are now structured such that every dollar earned by a person who is actually 'making something' is recycled to an additional 2-3 people who aren't 'making something' but instead providing services to the person who was ! When the jobs where people are actually 'making something' dry up, they can no longer afford many of those services !

  11. #11
    Tart
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    my mother has worked for delphi for 25 years ( when it was just Delco GM. )

    she was up for retirement in June and now it's possible it's not going to happen. I feel for her , they are talking about cutting their wages to 10.50 an hour and taking away a LOT of their benefits.

    She's almost 60 and now doesnt know how she's going to make it.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    my mother has worked for delphi for 25 years ( when it was just Delco GM. )

    she was up for retirement in June and now it's possible it's not going to happen. I feel for her , they are talking about cutting their wages to 10.50 an hour and taking away a LOT of their benefits.
    I'm torn as to how to respond to this. On a personal level, I am sorry for your mother and everyone else who is being directly affected by the GM/Delphi cutbacks. Certainly GM/Delphi and other unionized heavy industries provided for a very secure very pleasant life for three generations of workers. Having to adjust to 'normal' wage levels and 'normal' health/retirement benefits is certainly going to come as a shock.

    On the other hand, for the past three generations every autobuyer in the USA has been subjected to paying prices for American cars which were 20-30% higher than they otherwise would have been had autoworkers been paid at 'normal' wage levels and received 'normal' health/retirement benefits in exchange for the value of the work they were actually performing. The majority of these autobuyers over the past 3 generations were in fact working at 'normal' wage and benefit levels in other industries.

    Thus in a sense, the union wage and benefit costs embedded in the cost of new American cars 'extracted' money from the pockets of people working at 'normal' wage levels and lowered their standard of living / savings / future prospects for their children, and 'subsidized' your mother such that she could enjoy a higher standard of living / savings / future prospects for her children than the work she was actually performing was truly worth.

    In addition, the 20-30% higher than necessary prices for new American cars over the last 3 generations also opened the door to foreign competitors in the auto industry ... which were soon followed by foreign competitors in other industries ... which arguably gave birth to the whole 'global economy' / outsourcing paradigm which is now rampant throughout the US economy ... which today is not only affecting American workers receiving 'union' paychecks but is also affecting American workers who were already receiving 'normal' paychecks.

    So on the one hand I have sympathy for your mother as a victim of economic reality which has finally caught up to unionized auto workers in a manner which is shockingly abrupt. But on the other hand, if your mother had invested the 'excessive' pay she received from 25 years worth of union paychecks versus 25 years worth of 'normal' paychecks, she'd have a million dollar nest egg to fall back on. People working for 'normal' paychecks and benefits for the past 25 years, and having to pay prices for American cars which were 20-30% higher than they otherwise might have been in order to 'subsidize' your mother's standard of living, never had the same chance to save, invest, and build a huge nest egg for themselves that your mother had.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-22-2005 at 11:26 AM.

  13. #13
    Tart
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    she invested. that's not the issue. She had 7 kids, raised us on that income..paid for 5 kids colleges... recently we've suffered from 2 untimely deaths inwhich she herself paid for the funeral expenses etc etc.

    point is it's her job and if they cut out her pension and things of that nature then that is very fucked up.

  14. #14
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    ^ I'm sorry to hear all that Tart. I hope your family is doing better.

    I would hate to see GM gone. GMC & Chevrolet vehicles are hugely popular among Mexican-Americans. In fact, a man who used to work for GM couldn't resist asking me WHY that was. (Interchangable parts & affordability.)
    OTOH, I'll stop thinking of Chevys every time I hear Bob Seger's "Like A Rock"....

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    point is it's her job and if they cut out her pension and things of that nature then that is very fucked up.
    How is that fucked up ? GM/Delphi is not the government ! GM/Delphi has no inherent power to force American autobuyers to continue buying only American made cars at excessively high prices dictated by GM/Delphi that can cover the cost of union paychecks and benefits. When a private sector company goes bankrupt it's supposed to be all over, thus the forward looking financial health of a company is something that workers concerned about job security and future benefits are supposed to take into consideration when they make wage / benefit demands ! As it is, Delphi pensioners are probably going to wind up having their pensions being 'bailed out' by the tax money of other Americans via the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp.

    As far as that goes, even the government is bound to some degree by the same economic realities. Thus younger American workers have already been whacked with an increase in the 'promised' retirement age for Social Security, and a de-facto reduction in the 'promised' Social Security retirement benefits (via formula tweaking) than those which applied when they first started working and first started paying into Social Security.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-22-2005 at 12:28 PM.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    If one does survive, my money is on Ford.
    You're probably right ! Especially so if Ford's latest bid for a 'corporate welfare program' to subsidize them continuing to pay union wages to build hybrid SUV's under the guise of Alternative Vehicle technology gets any traction in Washington ...

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-22-2005 at 04:28 PM.

  17. #17
    Tart
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    im so lost here.

    All I mentioned is that my mother's security is threatened. that's about all. Instead I get my ass chewed because of whom she worked for in order to support us.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    im so lost here.

    All I mentioned is that my mother's security is threatened. that's about all. Instead I get my ass chewed because of whom she worked for in order to support us.
    Tart, please don't misinterpret my comments. As I said earlier, on a 'personal' level I am sympathetic to the shock that your mother is facing as a result of the Delphi bankruptcy. I am also sympathetic to the financial changes that are likely to follow for your mother/family. Similar events have already happened to union plants in upstate NY, and are still happening at a Delphi plant in Buffalo NY, which have direct impact on people I know.

    On a more 'objective' level, this is a financial forum. There is simply no denying that unionized American industries have over the past three generations resulted in higher than necessary prices being charged for lots of products, which has adversely affected the financial situation of other American people buying those products in order to enhance the financial situation of union workers. There's also no denying that unionized industries have also contributed heavily to foreign competition entering those industries, to outsourcing by American industries as a means of contending with that foreign competition etc., thus contributing to a general worsening of the financial situation of most Americans - EXCEPT those lucky few who are still collecting $25 an hour union paychecks.

    The reason that this thread was originally posted was to point out the probable negative financial effects to dancers who are currently working at clubs in specific regions of the US and Canada which have traditionally benefitted from nearby unionized industries (specifically GM plants), and who have traditionally earned higher than 'normal' money in those clubs. As is likely to be the case with your mother and other Delphi workers having their $25 an hour paychecks reduced to $10, the dancers in these clubs are likely to see their $500 a night earnings potential drop to $200. While this reduction in earnings is regrettable, there are also many areas of the country where $10 an hour paychecks and $200 a night dancer earnings potential are considered to be 'normal', with hourly workers and dancers in those areas looking upon $25 an hour paychecks or $500 a night average club earnings as an impossible dream.

    In retrospect, as moderator of this forum I should probably have just kept my mouth shut on this subject, as there was no way to be 'fair' to both ends of the spectrum at the same time so to speak. I am truly sorry if my comments came across as being 'personally' unsympathetic to your mother's situation - that was not my intent at all.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-22-2005 at 04:20 PM.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Tart, Melonie can speak poignantly about many subjects. Thats one of the reasons why I enjoy reading her posts so much. I imagine if it was her own mother at risk, she would still be able post knowledgeably and dispassionately even if the circumstances behind her posts were tragic to her personally.

    Anyway, back on topic.

    I disagree with the comments that American brand vehicles are 20-30% more expensive and are of suspect quality. Heres a link to an article in a recent issue of Car and Driver comparing 4 mid-size sedans which is the most popular car segment.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article....ticle_id=10245

    The Korean entry was significantly lower in price (but they are buying their way into the market just like the Japanese did 20 years ago) but the remaining competitors, two Japanese and one US brand, were pretty much in line price wise. And the American entry, the 2006 Ford Fusion, finished second in a very tough competitive field. I cant speak for sure about the content of the Fusion but I assume there were plenty of $25/hr Visteon union parts to be discovered on that vehicle.

    I know the Big Three really screwed up back in the 70's by allowing unions to bully them into signing labor contracts that would ultimately come back to bite them in the ass. Thats past history. I would argue that it might make more sense, long term, for the taxpayers to step in and help clean up the situation with the caveat that union wages, benefits, work rules etc are on the table. In my mind, the alternative is to surrender our manfacturing base (eventually down the road) and be willing to sell one another Big Macs at $7 an hour.

    OK, bullseye painted on my chest and ready for the next shot LOL

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Tart, Melonie can speak poignantly about many subjects. Thats one of the reasons why I enjoy reading her posts so much. I imagine if it was her own mother at risk, she would still be able post knowledgeably and dispassionately even if the circumstances behind her posts were tragic to her personally.
    Thank you. And it wasn't my own mother, but an uncle who had worked for a union industry for 20+ years and was faced with a plant closing a couple of years back. My uncle, aunt, and cousins had enjoyed a fantastic standard of living for as long as I can remember - but were suddenly faced with the financial realities of having to look for a 'normal' job. The 'family' in general was sympathetic to the abrupt change in their lives, but at the same time most other 'family' members had been working at 'normal' jobs all along, and had some difficulty viewing my uncle's loss of a union paycheck and being 'forced' to take a job with a 'normal' paycheck instead as being all that 'catastrophic' compared to their own financial situations.

    disagree with the comments that American brand vehicles are 20-30% more expensive and are of suspect quality
    That figure was meant to apply to average American vehicle pricing over the past three generations, which during much of that time American vehicle makers did not face head-on competition from foreign Automakers thus they could 'collude' to set pricing. The most recent example was SUV's and full-size pickup trucks, which have only faced head-on foreign competition for the last 3 years or so. Certainly in the past few years American auto companies have been forced to reduce pricing in an attempt to stem the loss of market share to foreign competition. It is arguable that American auto companies are now selling some models at a 'loss' in order to stem loss of market share to Korean imports. Of course, major factors which contribute to that 'loss' are $25 an hour union wages and expensive union benefits/work rules.

    I would argue that it might make more sense, long term, for the taxpayers to step in and help clean up the situation with the caveat that union wages, benefits, work rules etc are on the table. In my mind, the alternative is to surrender our manfacturing base (eventually down the road) and be willing to sell one another Big Macs at $7 an hour
    The counter argument of course is that given American environmental compliance, worker safety, and mandated benefits costs, that American industries will ALWAYS wind up being uncompetitive with foreign manufacturers who do not share the same cost burdens ... thus diverting tax money from MacDonalds workers' paychecks to subsidize these industries without addressing the other issues is effectively 'throwing good money after bad'.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Does this mean Corvettes are gonna be more expensive???
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Quote Originally Posted by onlythebest
    Does this mean Corvettes are gonna be more expensive???
    Aren't they expensive enough already ?

    Actually this probably means that American car prices will stop rising or even decline in the future, as union wages and benefits 'readjust' to more 'normal' levels in future contract negotiations. The Delphi bankruptcy and GM plant closing announcements have effectively sent the message to almost everyone that American car companies simply cannot survive in the future unless wages and benefits are more in line with the realities of a global economy.

    Judging by events at the Delphi plant in Buffalo NY, however, where workers are seriously considering going on strike rather than accepting pay cuts down to 'normal' hourly pay rates, it apparently hasn't sunk in with everyone yet. Faced with multi-billion dollar losses over the last couple of quarters, it is highly likely that American auto industry board members, stockholders etc. are prepared to lock the doors on auto plants in the event of such a strike and seek out new permanent parts suppliers in Asia.

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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    That's the Special Edition ZO6 that has 500 horses.It's about 20-25K more than the regular model.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    Quote Originally Posted by onlythebest
    Does this mean Corvettes are gonna be more expensive???
    Actually the Corvette is a bargain relatively speaking. The Dodge Viper is $15K more (and loses in almost all competitive tests compared to the Vette) while the European super sports cars are priced into the stratosphere and not an option for 99% of the buying public.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=9991

    FBR
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: GM Plant closings

    The Viper is NOT luxurious at all.I got to test drive one this year and did not like it.For the price,it does not have a lot features.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

    中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大




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