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Thread: Anti-Fur

  1. #1
    Veteran Member siliconedoll's Avatar
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    Default Anti-Fur

    (I wasnt sure if this belongs in stripping general or here)
    Last night a customer came in and we started chatting at the bar, he was obviously quite interested, probably would have bought a dance. Anyway I noticed the fur trim on his jacket and paused. I looked at it and said please tell me thats a really good fake, and he's said no, its real. I felt sick and asked what type of fur it was and he said racoon. I was heartbroken and had to hold back my anger/sadness. I told him how disgusted I was and he said it was ok cos he didnt pay for it, a fashion designer friend gave it to him, like that makes it ok??! Anyway I had to walk away and avoided him until he left. He called me over again, presumably for a dance but no amount of money he could offer would have made me want to dance for him or talk to him. I guess alot of people would see this as pretty dumb, virtually turning down money cos i didnt approve of a custys coat, but it upset me so much I couldnt have looked at him or it. The only good thing to come out of it was that it disgusted me so much that Im now choosing some animal charities to make monthly donations to because I want to feel like Im doing something to help the cause. I just wish people would stop wearing real fur and turning a blind eye to the cruelty.

  2. #2
    Senior Member RedFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I share your concerns and would have felt the same way. Its not so much this customer was wearing fur (although that is enough to elicit anger) but his complete lack of sensitivity to your beliefs is enough to make me avoid him too.



  3. #3
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    While I don't wear fur (got a leather jacket, though), I don't see where he was being insensitive. Am I dense? Siliconedoll asked him a question, and he answered truthfully, then tried to placate her, obviously unsuccessfully, by saying he didn't buy it - was that the insensitive part? When he called her over again, for all we know, it could've been to apologize and say he'd never wear it again in the club. Probably not, but we don't know.

    Siliconedoll has a right to be disgusted with the guy for whatever reason she chooses, but I didn't pick up where he was being insensitive, short of lying when he answered her question or by keeping his mouth shut about the fact that it was given to him.

  4. #4
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I go with you have the right to dance or not dance for anyone you choose for any reason that you choose.

    I am also very anti fur - and anti-leather, for that matter. However I do think that there is a difference if you don't pay for it, because you are not partaking in the industry. Nutshell - if nobody paid for it, nobody would do it, right? So second hand things don't matter as much to me. In any case, I would not have made the same decision - just because I see no greater impact; but if you don't want/need the money of someone wearing fur trim, that is your decision.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    God/dess
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I think being concerned about fur should perhaps be secondary to concerns about what large-scale cattle farms do to the environment, which is much more pressing. Also, how many anti-fur activists wear leather, eat meat, use perfume, or drink beer, therefore promoting the exploitation of animals? Like being pro-life I think that being anti-fur should be your own private burden to bear. I also think that at work you need a thicker skin that the one you've displayed. It's not as if this guy made some kind of racist or sexist statement or assaulted you or one of your coworkers. And come on--it was raccoon. They're like rats. Go ahead and give me the argument about the sanctity of rodents because I know it's coming.

    (Sorry. Bleeding heart liberal and a Marxist, but also a Texan.)

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    Senior Member TorontoGuy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I personally believe that unless you're a complete vegan (and keep in mind that the vegan diet is unhealthy for you if you're not finished developing - usually in the 18-20+ range), you don't have any grounds to dislike fur for clothing; you're raising or hunting the animal for parts in either case.

    Nature is often a lot crueler to animals than a farmer so as long as the animal in question isn't tortured in the process, I don't have a problem with raising animals for my benefit. The only reason I don't wear fur is that it is so much less practical that the man-made alternatives, and I'll keep eating steak until a practical substitute of identical or superior quality is available.

    In addition, while I firmly believe in an individual's right to disapprove of whatever they want... if I was a club owner and caught a dancer trying to tear a customer a new one because he was wearing fur, they'd be shown the door ASAP.

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    God/dess PleasureVictim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I don't have any fur nor do I plan on buying any....but if anyone bought me a chinchilla coat, I'd wear it like my life depended on it. Bad me I know.

  8. #8
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Quote Originally Posted by TorontoGuy
    I personally believe that unless you're a complete vegan (and keep in mind that the vegan diet is unhealthy for you if you're not finished developing - usually in the 18-20+ range), you don't have any grounds to dislike fur for clothing; you're raising or hunting the animal for parts in either case.
    Oh god, you're one of those. The vegan diet is extremely healthy - I'm not vegan, by the way. Even when you are still developing. Babies who are vegan should be breast fed longer than six weeks (so I guess they're not really vegan?), but there is nothing inherently unhealthy about veganism.
    There is nothing more tiresome that the people who, when you mention casually that you are vegetarian, start listing of every animal product they can think of (do you wear leather? No. Do you eat fish? No. Do you eat eggs? No. Do you eat honey? Yes. Huh. Hypocrite) in order to undermine your choices so they don't feel like they have less character than you. It is always better to do something than nothing. I am a vegetarian on ethical grounds - it doesn't mean that I'm a hypocrite because I watch videos.

    In addition, while I firmly believe in an individual's right to disapprove of whatever they want... if I was a club owner and caught a dancer trying to tear a customer a new one because he was wearing fur, they'd be shown the door ASAP.
    Well, in this case she refused to dance for him and to further interact with him, and it doesn't sound as if they had a particularly unpleasant discussion, even though she told him how she felt. And if a club owner tried to censor me in a normal conversation with a customer because he didn't like my ethics or politics... well, I would be out the door long before they could show it to me.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  9. #9
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    People (some love their fur) However today half i bet don't know what the fuck they are wearing....DOG and CAT fur feel and look as good, but cheaper....How sick!!!!

    Coon? Perhaps. A dog or cat that is my thinking these days. Stores are mass producing cheap for all fur...It's dog and cat! Fuckers.

    Pamela

  10. #10
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Also on another note. I don't believe people actually want to be hypocrites. You give up one for the animals...but ya can't give it all up!!! It's the world we live in.

    But one step makes a difference. I would have danced for him, but i would have asked him to take the coat thingy off....Ever smell older fur? It stinks. You CAN NOT get smoke out of it. You can't.

    Dry cleaners will tell you this. Watch where you wear fuckin fur.

    I HATE fur anything....

  11. #11
    Senior Member TorontoGuy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Jenny;

    I guess I am 'one of those' - if you can't stand animals being raised for clothing, you shouldn't stand for them being raised as food. In both cases the animals are kept in artificial environments and slaughtered when the farmer feels it's most useful to do so. I also totally forgot about medical testing - where my personal beliefs lead to the 'necessary evil' side of things, but I can't stand research on animals with which I can have empathy (primates, dogs, cats, etc).

    I also spent a few minutes just now looking into vegan diets during breastfeeding or childhood - and the dietary recommendations from medical sites (as opposed to the pro-vegan sites) are pretty much all the same; the diets all include items artifically fortified with vitamins, recommend vitamin suplements, and indicate that a professional dietician should be consulted. As a result, I'll stand by my comment that a vegan diet isn't particularly heathy for children.

  12. #12
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Vegans always look weak and sickly to my eyes. They need to eat more soy beans or something. Pasty and skinny. Makes ya wanna feed em a hamburger.

    I wore a coat lined with fur - it was on the inside of the coat though - and it was for sub-zero weather. Toasty warm!

    I think fashion furs are in bad taste... unless they are on a half naked woman playing Barbarian Queen!

    Then again I think ostentatious clothing is a bit much to begin with. I am not against nice clothing or different clothing - but fur and diamond bra's are in the same category in my book.

  13. #13
    God/dess colleen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    What an interesting discussion! A few random thoughts and replies:

    SilliconDoll: You were totally within your rights to not dance for this guy, but with cold weather approaching, you are going to see a LOT of fur/wool/leather and so forth. You may go broke if you refuse to dance for everybody wearing animal parts on their backs.

    As a vegetaian, I am partuclarly sensitive to the smell of meat on somebody's breath. Some nights, it seems like the entire bar jsut came from an all-you-can-eat meat buffet. Revolting, both morally and asthetically. I know what these guys have been eating, and thier morals are WAY different than mine, but I dance for them anyway. I can't afford organic vegetarin food for myself and my family if I don't. And I feel that by spending money on organic, sustaniabaly-grown produce etc., I am doing good for the world. Some other dancer woudl jsut waste it on cheap beef and ddt-ridden produce from mexico.

    My advice is, dance for these guys, get every penny you can, and use that money specificallyto donate to a charity or otherwise make the world a better place. Then deduct the donation from your taxes. See? Everybody wins.

    Also, I don't think most people really mean to be insensitive; they just don't get it. To the custy, your reaction must have seemed extreme.

    Totonto guy: I have a couple of points Iwoudl like to make to you:

    I personally believe that unless you're a complete vegan (and keep in mind that the vegan diet is unhealthy for you if you're not finished developing - usually in the 18-20+ range), you don't have any grounds to dislike fur for clothing;
    Jenny is right on with this one. ANY action is better than none. Fur is particularly easy to avoid b/c it is a one-time decision to buy a fur garment or not. Also, animals raised for fur are raised ONLY for fur, and the rest of the carcass is wasted or sent to a redering plant. Many people who eventually become vegetarian/vegan begin by refusing to wear fur, and then make other lifestyle changes as they can or see the need. Raising animals humanely for meat may have some moral jsutification, in that every part of the animal is used for something, and b/c people do need to eat (I don't agree, but I do see the logic). However, raising animals for fur is a needless waste of life in which animals are called into a short painful existence and then put to a painful death (electrocution, I think) simply for a luxuary.

    I also totally forgot about medical testing - where my personal beliefs lead to the 'necessary evil' side of things, but I can't stand research on animals with which I can have empathy (primates, dogs, cats, etc).
    OK, now this is hypocritical. Research on primates is the most necessary evil, since they are most like us. Research on rats, etc. is preliminary, since the small size and short lifespan on the animals make it easy to selectively breed them for certain purposes and to do a lot of experinets through several generations fairly quickly. But when researches find something really good and want to take it to market, guess what is frequently the last stop before human trials . . . . Without primate testing, much of the testing of which you approve would be meaningless. (Now, cosmetic testing on animals is another matter. That is totally unnecessary.)

    I also spent a few minutes just now looking into vegan diets during breastfeeding or childhood - and the dietary recommendations from medical sites (as opposed to the pro-vegan sites) are pretty much all the same; the diets all include items artifically fortified with vitamins, recommend vitamin suplements, and indicate that a professional dietician should be consulted.
    They say that about every pregnant woman, nursing mother, and small child. ALL wheat porducts in the united states (or at least white flour porducts) are required to be fortified with folate (or folic acid, I forget which) just in case a woman gets pregnent and does not have enough of this vitamin in her diet. Not jsut for vegetarian women, but ALL of them. ALL women are recommended to take pre-natal vitamins during pregnancy and breast feeding. And many pediatricians recommend kids take multi vitamins. One reason is that during these times in life, it is hard to eat enough food in the right balance. Another reason is that the way food is raised today, both animal and vegetable products, there is much less nutrition in the food than our bodies require. Not to mention, in America today, so much of our healthy diet is displaced with junk food, and we are so exposed to polution that we really need antioxidents. Ordinary adults may muddle along on whatever nutrition they can gleen from their diets, but if you are trying to grow your own body or somebody else's, you need to be certain-sure you are getting all the nutrients you need.

    Everyday foods you eat that are fortified:
    salt (iodine)
    flour and flour porducts (Folate)
    Milk (vitmins a & d)
    Breakfast cereal, pop-tarts, etc (8-12 various "essential" vitamins)
    Grahm creckers and spaghetti-o's (calcium)

    and the list goes on and on. It is not jsut vegans/vegetarians who need supplimentation, it is EVERYBODY.

    Nature is often a lot crueler to animals than a farmer so as long as the animal in question isn't tortured in the process, I don't have a problem with raising animals for my benefit
    Sorry, sweeite, but animals raied for food and fur ARE tortured. Unless they are free-range food animals, their entire existense is dark and confined. And the slaughter is NEVER pretty.

    Animals living in nature fulfil a purpose, and they generally don't hurt the enviornment doing it. Animals raised by humans exist for the sole purpose of being slaughtered by humans, at great enviornmetal expense.

    Pamela:
    Also on another note. I don't believe people actually want to be hypocrites. You give up one for the animals...but ya can't give it all up!!! It's the world we live in.
    And Jenny:
    It is always better to do something than nothing.
    This is so true. Frequently, becoming vegetarian is a process, not a pivital moment in life. I stopped wearing fur . . . . then eating beef . . . . then seafood . . . . then chicken . . . . now I RARELy buy new leather (but could not resist a Coach purse. Next time I will choose a different status symbol!) but am still wearing out the things I have. . . . I buy organic milk and free-range eggs . . . . and am moving my family slowly toward veganism . . . but with the amount of milk my guys drink we will never get there!

    My point is that it is not easy to give up ALL animal porducts/animal tested products. ANd even if you do, there are repurcussions. For example, what is the enviornmental impact of a pair of synthetic shoes as opposed to leather ones?

    Susan wayward:

    It's not as if this guy made some kind of racist or sexist statement
    Interesting . . . . I would have been less concerned about the statement, which is only words, than the fur, which represents real physical suffering. (that's just me. Not to say that I am right or wrong here.) But it brings up a different point. Which weighs heavier: the real suffering of an animal, or words directed toward a person?

    Pamela:

    Coon? Perhaps. A dog or cat that is my thinking these days. Stores are mass producing cheap for all fur...It's dog and cat! Fuckers.
    Does it matter WHICH animal it is? Why?



    Well, that was at least a nickle's worth. Looking forward to a continued discussion!


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  14. #14
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    It does matter which animal it is being used. Why? Well first the suffering is the same, no doubt.

    But, Dog and Cat fur are often "pet" animals! People who have had their pets stolen for one.

    Also...Yes it makes a difference again, Dog and Cat fur as J-Crew (one store) is using very cheap fur, Mink is very expensive, and catering to the younger crowd, making very cheap and pretty clothes with fur collars and sleeves easy and afordable...While many people are trying to stop the torture.

    Now introdued more than EVER (it's a BOOM) Pets to wear.

    Sure Lopez will wear her Fox and Chins. But the younger crowd can't afford this, so they will buy real fur that are dog and cat fur.

    This is a huge problem now.

    Pamela

  15. #15
    Veteran Member logan820's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I love fur personally. I think esp racoons are gross, and look better worn on someone. I own a few furs, and would buy more. These animals have a purpose, to be a fur coat someday. what about veal, a baby calf? Would you not talk to someone if they ate veal? The calf is raised in a box, and killed. If you don;t want to dance for someone b/c they wear fur that is an opinion, but you are losing $. It is your descion not to wear fur. Everything has a purpose, if we stopped killing animals the world would be overpopulated w/ rodents other animals. I am not an animal hater, I have a dog, I just don;t see the big deal.

  16. #16
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Not to morph this but the deal is people and over-population! Development! We are taking away predators, leaving a wide open range for the better smaller more versatile animal pests to move into our yards and homes. We have no balance in nature....None!

    Pamela

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    Veteran Member lwtex52's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    (Quietly removes and hides my Brontosaurus-foreskin cowboy boots and replaces them with the tri-colored vinyl penny-ante loafers I bought at Wal-Mart)
    Last edited by lwtex52; 11-26-2005 at 03:32 PM.
    My latest conspiracy theory: I am convinced that Dick Cheney is, in reality, Elmer Fudd.

  18. #18
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I don't think anyone has a higher moral ground here, sorry.

    By dentition and digestion, we are omnivores, built for a diet of plant and animal matter. We're capable of living our lives on meat-oriented or vegetable-oriented diets. I have seen vegetarians who didn't look healthy, who looked completely healthy, and who had overweight problems.

    If the cattle are gonna get slaughtered for food, I have no problem with processing the hides as leather to keep clothed and warm. It seems a better use for the hides than the landfill.

    However, I don't much see the sense in raising animals only for hides and throwing the rest away (or maybe they go into hot dogs). But that's just me and my logic. I don't claim a moral superiority for it.

    I don't particularly care to hear people rag on supposed "hypocrisy" of vegetarians, nor do I care to hear criticism of my french dip sandwich from a vegetarian (see, I did this guy a huge favor and he said, "thanks, let me buy you lunch," and then tried to rip me for ordering a sandwich with meat. You're welcome). Both are forms of either mockery or evangelism, and we all would be better with less of either.

    I'm all for humane slaughtering (which is a funny term). No sense in making animals suffer any more than necessary on their way to our stomachs and backs.

    I'm going to make some chili tonight. I've tried vegetarian chili, and sorry, but it just doesn't cut it. But my food has been all plants, seeds, and legumes up till suppertime.

  19. #19
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    I am backing out! This is a great thread but one that has the potential to turn "ugly."

    So on that note, it is a personal decision for any one person.

    I think most here know how i feel. I don't do any form of animal product in my mouth, Food, (an exception here) but i had to be evaluated by my doctor to make sure i was getting the vitamins and minerals i needed, i am Vegan. I still gained weight on non animal foods, but have it down again.

    I Use Loreal product (bleaching kit) that tests on animals....Again, you can't be the perfect anti-abuse animal person, the world will floor you first!

    It's the times. Animals are used for EVERYTHING!

    I love them, and fight for them. But i am not perfect either. I can't be, i may die trying to be...My heart Meds. Are still tested on animals.....So we make tough decisions for our lives as well.

    Pamela

  20. #20
    Tart
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Okay here we go

    My on again and off again bf is vegan.. ( straight edge. ) meaning the obvious on vegan ..and no drugs no drinking never has never will. He doesn't wear leather, etc etc.

    he is VERY healthy and has chubb to him. Trust me he's not all fucking sticks and bones. So while most are thin not all are looking as though they are going to kill over.

    I personally do wear fur. IN fact I rock out this ugly ass furcoat that was my mothers .

    I LOVE whenI catch hell for it from someone wearing leather shoes and carrying their overpriced leather handbags... after they just finished a steak.

    Or catch hell from anyone.

    God I just wait for PETA to say something., after what I read on what they do to strays... yah i have a few choice words for them.

    This coat I own was my moms first and only fur coat. My father purchased it for 20 bucks off some guy in hells kitchen on a truck ( so yes probably stolen . )

    Would I go out and buy one? No.

    why?

    Because i rather buy diamonds

    Im all for people hving their own beliefs ..morals and standing up for em'. So I applaud the orginal poster for sticking with it.

    I think the "fur" debate falls into the same category as religion/abortion etc... touchy touchy subj.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    My problem is not with the wearing/eating so much (as long as you use all of it, and it had a good free life and was killed painlessly...the rest is food chain) but the fact that the industries DON"T do the things in parentheses to make the animals lives and deaths as natural and comfortable as possible...and that some animals are bred for just one thing (fur or meat or??).

    I agree he wasn't visibly insensitive, and had every right to wear what he chose...and she had every right to ignore him. However, if they so chose, mgmt has every right to discipline a worker who won't interact with a customer...most will simply "assign" someone else to take care of him (and you might have steered another girl his way) but they may choose to take it more seriously

  22. #22
    God/dess
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Just to think that the fur-wearing customer thought he'd impress a dancer with his clothes, bleh.



  23. #23
    Tart
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    lol dont you love those guys.


  24. #24
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    Quote Originally Posted by Pamela
    I am backing out! This is a great thread but one that has the potential to turn "ugly."

    I Use Loreal product (bleaching kit) that tests on animals....Again, you can't be the perfect anti-abuse animal person, the world will floor you first!

    It's the times. Animals are used for EVERYTHING!

    I love them, and fight for them. But i am not perfect either. I can't be, i may die trying to be...My heart Meds. Are still tested on animals.....So we make tough decisions for our lives as well.

    Pamela
    Indeed, we are none of perfect. Peta films its video on animal matter. It is impossible to avoid. But my understanding was that Loreal had not tested on animals since 1986. Clairol, I think does.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  25. #25
    Pamela
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    Default Re: Anti-Fur

    You are right Jenny, this is catchy! Some products are not tested on animals by a certain company, while other products they put out can be tested on animals.

    As for the KIDS who threw the stray dogs in the dumpster, these kids are being charged to the full extent, PETA is helping with the prosecution!

    Also another note about PETA, this Org. is usually a last resort for many animals. Animals that are very very sick and dying as well.

    You can't blame a whole group, because of some bad apples...we as dancers learn that right away!!!

    Ok..Done. Just had to explain. It's all cool...Be you! Be real! That's what i say!

    Pamela

    My type of bleach i use is....

    Pamela

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