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Thread: Holy Sh*t!

  1. #1
    madmaxine
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    Default Holy Sh*t!

    I have to post about this.....I didn't make a connection with my family & the Winchester Mystery House until today.......

    My sister & I were discussing whether our family has "karmic debt" from selling munitions during the Mexican Revolution. The subject came up since my sister will be in Mexico for a month. I started cracking jokes that our Spanish-Jewish forebears were still p*ssed off from getting kicked out of Spain & wanted to take out their anti-pathy on the world. (My dad's defense of our ancestor's actions: "If they hadn't done it, someone else would have! It was a war!" )
    My sister pointed out death by bullets & bombs is so relatively new a way to eliminate people from the earth (in a whole "human history on earth" way, [Warfare Historians, please weigh in].....), there may be special metaphysical consequences for such actions. THEN I remembered that the Winchester Mystery House exists in San Jose, CA because the widow of the man who sold the Winchester Machine Gun was instructed to keep construction going on her house to "confuse" the vengeful spirits of people who had been killed by those rapid-fire bullets. (Begs the question, why were they going after her & not him? Other than him being dead? )
    I'm sure this sounds ridiculous, but we have such bad luck in my family. My father had a hard upbringing & ours was difficult in different ways. I am tempted to think "familial karma" may be the problem.
    Sigh....not a Christmasy topic, but it is interesting. I am going to go hunt for some links to the Winchester house.

    EDIT TO ADD:
    Last edited by madmaxine; 12-20-2005 at 01:40 AM.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member susie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    Your dad is right. It was war, the guns and bullets aren't the real weapons, but the people who use them. Now, you can be 'punnished' if your ancestors only took from the world. Every one must pay their dues, their taxes, and 'tythes' wether it's to a church, or giving a spare pair of gloves to someone who needs them. If your family turned to many blind eyes, it can effect you. The catholic way of paying their ancestors out of limbo is sort of acurate. To many people w/chains(like in scrouge) or in 'limbo' and it will effect your life.
    The only reason why I can anser that is because my brother and I were having the same conversation.
    The other thing is that we must treat every one the way 'god' or 'the gods' treat us. The gods give us freedom to do as we will, they do not make slaves of us unless we ask the gods to.(many beleave we are here on earth to learn how to be a 'god', ect.)
    The women are always more attacked spiritually then men, because we are the ones who pass on the genetics, and the family trees so to speak.
    It wasn't a machine gun, but the Winchestor rifle, that home was built when they were at the beginning of making manufactured guns. Until that point, guns were all different and had been smithed seporately, one or two at a time. Semi automatics and automatics didn't apear until ww1 I think. That house fasinates me, I like the area wear a door is up to storys, and it leads to nothing. A real fast exit!

    I could talk to you about it(your family 'problems' and solutions, I've had to figure mine out, so I can relate), if you have a specific question pm me
    Susie

  3. #3
    Veteran Member susie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    BTW, that was just my personal thinking and logics, lol I don't mean that that is every ones way of life or should be
    Susie

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    Featured Member xbloodydewdropx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    this is certainly an interesting concept! i think that while it might be possible for "karmic debt" or supernatual energies to be attached to families and individuals, it does not mean people are tied to such obligations forever. often by making choices and being aware of how we treat and respond to others, someone can change his or her life dramatically. family members effect one another psychologically, financially, emotionally, etc., and sometimes back luck can be chocked up to guilt by association.

    depending on your personal belief systems, there are probably ways to remove bad karma. susie's suggestion to treat others well and create good karma is a tangible way. on a more metaphysical level, there are rituals, spells, etc. that can remove bad energy and redefine the luck in one's life. lol....much like sarah winchester's constant construction.

    maybe it's all psychological, maybe there's a dash of spiritual jazz in the mix. sometimes i think the same thing....my dad's side of the family is really nutty and influenced by bad luck, most recently evident in the death of my cousin. however, i think it goes back to my now-deceased-asshole grandfather who fucked up my aunt (and thus codependant cousin...his death was inadvertently a side effect of this dependance) and father. me and my siblings have not been touched by that negativity though, thanks to my mom divorcing my dad many years ago.

    it's an interesting question, though, madmaxine....how much of misfortune is tied to who we know, how much of it is plain old shit-luck, and how much of it is due to individual choices. hope your research is going well....very fun topic to read about

  5. #5
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    I went to the mystery house and I actually got some ghost pictures! I showed em around but no one would believe me. I'm like "whatever."

    As I understand it, the spirits were to come after her children. This is why she was so paranoid about building the house to confuse them where they were. (It is a confusing house too!)

  6. #6
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    *UPDATE* (We're like the Jewish family in Bakshi's "American Pop," but with guns instead of music........)

    My sister returned from Mexico & with her came some interesting but heartbreaking info. It seems that 3 children in the past 30 years were taken from our family in Mexico in the same cruel, sudden way (I won't elaborate on an Internet MB, but these were premature non-disease deaths.) I can't help but think that some bad energy had to do with it. Bad things happen to good people all the time, sadly, but I think that some of the violence & anger of old family history carried over through time to harm us today.

    There are many "family curse" stories of recent legend- The Bruce Lee family curse, the Kennedy curse (well-documented).....not trying to put my little family up in that lore, but I think it's interesting.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    I do believe in karma, but not in family curses. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

    And surely someone with such good karmic ways as yourself could break it anyway.

    As far as the historical use of firearms to kill each other--men have been killing each other for tens of thousands of years, at the least. Firearms have been around only a few hundred--though the really lethal usage has been in this century, and maybe the latter half of the last. OOps, I forgot we just started a brand new one, lol...well, you know what I mean.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member contheboyalready's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxine
    My sister pointed out death by bullets & bombs is so relatively new a way to eliminate people from the earth (in a whole "human history on earth" way, [Warfare Historians, please weigh in].....), there may be special metaphysical consequences for such actions. THEN I remembered that the Winchester Mystery House exists in San Jose, CA because the widow of the man who sold the Winchester Machine Gun was instructed to keep construction going on her house to "confuse" the vengeful spirits of people who had been killed by those rapid-fire bullets. EDIT TO ADD:
    Looks like the place is an interesting tourist trap with some major drama queen history. Makes me wonder what the Teller Mystery House must look like.

  9. #9
    Senior Member contheboyalready's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    Quote Originally Posted by susie
    It was war, the guns and bullets aren't the real weapons, but the people who use them.
    Why is no one training game animals in the use of firearms? I'd love to see video of a bear tag a redneck slackjawed "hunter". Would be reason enough by itself to watch the "kill animals" channel.

    It wasn't a machine gun, but the Winchestor rifle, that home was built when they were at the beginning of making manufactured guns. Until that point, guns were all different and had been smithed seporately, one or two at a time. Semi automatics and automatics didn't apear until ww1 I think.
    I also think that Winchester may have been the first to mass produce the "repeating" rifle, which did not require the slow reloading process.

    Perhaps someone named "tommy" invented the machine gun.

    Just as an aside: Pussies can be orgasmic machine guns. The cock is an orgasmic flint-lock. Add this to the list of XX advantages.

  10. #10
    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    One thing that is certain of kharmatic justice- it is indeed just.

    From this perspective, can a rifle indeed be considered something evil? In the world of kharma- absolutely not. It's a device without any kind of free will or action attached.

    If a rifle is used to kill/hunt for food to feed a starving family in the woods, is there any evil attached to that rifle? On the contrary, it's been a device connected to freewill from some entity used for good.

    If a rifle is used to mercilessly slay a family on the open streets, is there any evil attached to that rifle? On the contrary, it's been a device connected to freewill from some entity used for evil.

    In the balance of things, kharma (or however one looks at things) is always attached to freewill.. which no item, device, tool or object can produce. Freewill is always a device of the living. Therefore the balance of kharma, luck, fortune.. or whatever has always followed precisely in this order.

    As far as Sara Winchester- the local historical recount of the woman is drastically different from the "tour" drama or many other accounts. Some interesting tidbits that kind of differ from the popular story:
    * Sara Winchester was never the same after her daughter died in her infancy less than a month after birth. This was the single most life-altering event in her life. Those that were familiar with the family explained the witty, funny, creative and giving woman died that day. Her husband died 15 years later which further plunged her into depression.

    * Sara moved to California from the east coast due to her horrible arthritis. Her physician at the time recommended the woman get to dryer/warmer climates to help with this dehabilitating disorder she'd had for many years. This is the real reason for the 2" step height stairs that litter the mansion and her move to Santa Clara.

    * In the earthquake in 1906, some structural damage was sustained in the house and she was trapped in a bathroom for several hours. After this event, she had all her bathroom doors glass-paned in fear from her ordeal. This is the real reason why/when this change was made to the house.

    * The entire "family curse" idea was planted by a psychic she visited looking for clues for the misery in her life. Her arthritis, death of her daughter and other tragic events were too much for her to bare and this curse became a convenient scape goat to point at her misery sufferred.

    * Sara invited and paid local musicians large fees to come and entertain her all alone in her mansion. Despite her deeply swelled depression, recounts of the musicians were favorable. Most recounted (even after her death) that she was a kind hearted, giving and very generous woman.

    * Up until the day she died, she paid various contractors to continue to add-on to the house. Construction contractors were always paid 2x the going rate for the time and lavished in bonuses and other gifts. She also fired on the spot any contractor that tried to cut corners, save money or disagree with her ideas.

    It's a sad tale of a woman that had been through much trauma in her life and found something to displace this upon. She unfortunately blamed all the negative things in her life on herself and lived a life of guilt and endless restitution in hopes of someday ridding herself of those feelings.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

  11. #11
    Senior Member contheboyalready's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    Quote Originally Posted by polecat
    * Sara Winchester was never the same after her daughter died in her infancy less than a month after birth. This was the single most life-altering event in her life. Those that were familiar with the family explained the witty, funny, creative and giving woman died that day. Her husband died 15 years later which further plunged her into depression.

    * Sara moved to California from the east coast due to her horrible arthritis. Her physician at the time recommended the woman get to dryer/warmer climates to help with this dehabilitating disorder she'd had for many years. This is the real reason for the 2" step height stairs that litter the mansion and her move to Santa Clara.
    .....

    It's a sad tale of a woman that had been through much trauma in her life and found something to displace this upon. She unfortunately blamed all the negative things in her life on herself and lived a life of guilt and endless restitution in hopes of someday ridding herself of those feelings.
    So... in the 1870's or so, this woman:
    had an infant daughter die;
    suffered from arthritis;
    her husband died at an advanced age;
    was ridiculously wealthy and could afford any whim she desired.

    [i'll guess that infant mortality in the 1870's was very high and that an infant death, although tragic, was very common.]

    Fair to say she had "Been through so much trauma"? This just a few years after the bloodiest war in our history, with hundreds of thousands of young men dead or crippled or in constant horrific pain for the remainder of their life.

    The Winchester widow sounds like a total drama queen, and she wasted vast amount of money at a time when it was dearly needed by the truly traumatized. The self-absorbed and self generated dramas of rich spoiled byatches has changed little it seems. She created her own bad Karma totally unrelated to her husband's business. I've heard that more than a few women in the 1800's had a hard life. She doesn't qualify.

    Frankly, Sara, I don't give a damn.
    Last edited by contheboyalready; 01-19-2006 at 06:23 AM.

  12. #12
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    ^ Oh look, I've been cursed by a troll. LOL

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    If you're talking about the post that was just deleted--not any more, lol--I reported it.

    Your family history sounds most intriguing--if perhaps tragic at times...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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    Featured Member venusofwillendorf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    i believe in kharma, maxine, but i do not beleive that innocent people are held accountable for the actions of their family members or associates. "guilt by association" is an idea born of the human desire for revenge, not of true ethics. i am certain that the gods have better ways of determining the weave of things.

    why do bad things happen to good people? i'm not sure. sometimes i think the person may have done something in a past life that made them deserve it. sometimes it's to teach a lesson. maybe sometimes it was the only way to make the tapestry work. but i don't think it's ever because we are related to miscreants.
    be the change you wish to see in the world....
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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    I think Karma is individual. You don't have to suffer because of the sins of your ansestors.

    On another note, it looks like the Winchester Corporation won't be around much longer. I heard something about a potential buy out, but I don't remeber who it was that was looking to buy the company. If the company ceases to exist is your karmic debt then paid??

    Here is what I found:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10913125/


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Senior Member lares's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    god that is so weird...i just went to take a tour of the house this week! anyways...after the 1906 earthquake she closed off 30 rooms of her house because she thought the earthquake wqas punishment for spending too much building time on that part of the house. a huge bell tower came 6 feet close to landing where she was trapped! anyways i agree she was a a sad woman...she had no companions except her niece. the house is kinda spooky...very big...and freezing cold (even though it was 65 outside). neat house though..complete with it's own saince room. but i wouoldn't recommend anyone spending their money to see it...most of the 100's of rooms are unfurnished or roped off, so you don't get lost in the house (there are stairs that don't lead anywhere and doors that lead to a 10 foot drop).
    ~The best revenge is enjoying life.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Sh*t!

    Another "Tale of Twisted Karma"--the inventor of nitroglycerine (I believe--or was it some other substance integral to the manufacture of high explosives?) was none other than the same guy who started the Nobel Peace Prize--Mr. Nobel himself...

    I forget his first name--Alfred or something--but I don't have time to look it up now--I need to be getting ready for work, not hanging out here, lol!

    Now what kind of karmic retribution can his family expect? If you look at the casualty figures for World War II, for instance--just to cite the most spectacular of recent wars--far more people were killed via high explosives in one form or another, than were killed by bullets.

    How about Oppenheimer? His family should be cowering under their beds, forevermore...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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