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Thread: Sex Abuse

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mimi NY's Avatar
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    Default Sex Abuse

    Working in clubs for eight months, I've met a lot of girls who have really screwed up attitudes towards guys. You know, hand jobs in the back room, cheating on their guys, fucking around etc. I've written about it and received a lot of feedback saying; 'thank you for highlighting the sex abuse prevalent amongst the stripper community'.

    Erm - what?

    Personally, I don't think a career as a stripper immediately qualifies you as a candidate for rape, child abuse or any other horrors, but a lot of people seem to think so. There are so many stories out there which report that stripping necessarily leads to prostitution. It annoys me. But then, I've never asked the girls I've worked with if they've ever been abused.

    A victim of abuse recently emailed me to ask me to cover a story on this topic more intensively. But I feel, what with the attempts by dancers to gain respect for the industry and unionisation etc, to cover a story about 'sex abuse victims who are strippers' is possibly detrimental to the industry and the image we try to project, especially those of us who don't like giving 'extras'.

    What do you think? I'm interested. I've done some stupid shit in my life, I've probaly slept around more than most, I've had some nasty experiences with guys, and I have had a very nasty experience with management in one club I worked in. But I don't consider myself 'sex-abused'. Is porn an industry which attracts those who are 'sex abused' in their past?

    Any feedback appreciated.

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    God/dess onlythebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    This post hits close to home for me.Five years ago,a customer went too far in VIP with me and did something to me that took me a few years to get over.I told my ex-mother-in-law about this at the time and she said that I put myself in that predicament and that I shouldn't be surprised.She said I put myself in the environment that "allows" me to be treated poorly.That made my blood boil.You can get raped and/or molested just walking to your car after buying groceries.That really hurt me deeply when she told me that.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    To ones who might think that the sex industry and stripping navigates girls to their clutches...if it wasnt that they would go somewhere else.
    you live like an ivy vine
    you can only survive by clinging onto trees
    that's your flaw
    put down some roots so you can stand on your own
    -Kenpachi



  4. #4
    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by onlythebest
    This post hits close to home for me.Five years ago,a customer went too far in VIP with me and did something to me that took me a few years to get over.I told my ex-mother-in-law about this at the time and she said that I put myself in that predicament and that I shouldn't be surprised.She said I put myself in the environment that "allows" me to be treated poorly.That made my blood boil.You can get raped and/or molested just walking to your car after buying groceries.That really hurt me deeply when she told me that.
    Same here. I've almost gotten raped before, and people told me the I deserved what I got. I still haven't gotten over it. I don't understand why people blame us for perverts' actions.

    Sometimes, I think that females are the biggest misogynists. Think about it: women are simultaneously very social and very competitive, which creates a need to sepate "us" vs. "them." By cattily gossiping about someone rather than confront, females generally seek acceptance and calibrations of their own normality by making sure that others share their opinions, creating feelings of stability and belonging. By having someone to look down on (ie that slutty stripper knows that she's working around sexually exuberant men and deserves what she get; that bitch is a horrible mom who did crack while pregnant; etc) they can reinforce what they are not what they do not wish to be. When women are put on jury duty in a rape case, they're the most curious about where the woman was wearing, where she was, etc. Granted, there are enough men who think that our actions are enough to give perverts a Tourette's syndrome-esque excuse for their actions, but women are pretty bad about it too.

    Mimi, I think that you're a thick-skinned person who's worked at decent enough clubs so that you haven't had anything especially bad happen to you, or perhaps just 8 months still makes you a plebian. Compare this to me: I started out in a shit pit of a club that didn't believe in bouncers or kicking people out even if they were raping you. I admire you for your ability to let it roll off like water off a duck's back.

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    God/dess onlythebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    ^^^Damn girl,you have a very valid point.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

    中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大




  6. #6
    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    ^I took a Women's Studies course, initially thinking that I'd be recruited into a male genocide movement by an Andrea Dworkin fanatic. Instead, I learned many valuable lessons, and my eyes were opened to many shades of gray. The class was so good that even the guys (mostly foreign males who wished to know about US customs and needed a humanities credit) didn't feel threatened.

  7. #7
    God/dess onlythebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    ^I guess the phrase,"contrary to popular belief" can be said about this matter.It's really amazing how the reality is so opposite of what the majority believes.
    One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.

    一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.

    中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大




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    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I've been on both sides of it. I was molested as a child, and started dancing way underage at really awful places where I got raped a couple times. OTOH, I've come back to stripping as an adult and it's definitely helped me reclaim my sexuality and be comfortable with male sexuality. I know a lot of women have had similar experiences, so why not write something like that with a positive spin?



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    God/dess fancygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    If anything, I would say offer a balanced perspective in your story. It is interesting to speculate about the percentage of women who are/have been abused and are dancers. The only problem that I think the general public has is the tendency to create logical fallacies: one gets abused, and therefore they become a dancer to act out their negative reactions. Or, one is a dancer, and therfore they should expect to be abused. Neither one fo these is correct (although we do know some dancers who have been horribly mistreated and haven't been able to deal, and so do horrible things in their career.)
    the balanced perspective would be appreciated because we all HATE that stereotype of being on drugs, having bad boyfriends (guilty here a few years back, but no more), having a ton of kids, being undereducated, being sexually abused, hating men, being a lesbian, being a nymphomaniac...you get the picture.
    Or, you could parallel two (female) jobs, e.g. a secretary and a dancer. Find two women in each category who have been sexually accosted/abused, and two who haven't. Profiling them for readers might show a more balanced viewpoint on the fact that women can be raped no matter what career they pursue, just like they can work as happy, well-adjusted, unaccosted female as well.

  10. #10
    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I hear you on that one too Lena. I quit ClubShit after a particularly nasty episode, took a hiatus, nursed my wounds, saw a shrink, and started dancing at the best club that I have ever worked at. I'm glad that I danced at the End Zone, because it let me feel empowered as a dancer and I had a lot of fun.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    You know...I've met a LOT of people who are NOT dancers that have been raped, sexually abused. Why people keep wanting to say that it's just dancers is beyond me. Of course, it's quite apparent in the dance field, since it's all about boundaries. Those dancers who do those extra things have no sense of boundaries...and they're the ones who make the headlines. You'd never see a headline about me, "Dancer approached for extras and says No. Attributes it to boundaries and healthy emotional state." You just see the headlines "Dancer has sex with customer in back room. Attributes it to sex abuse as young girl."

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    God/dess Mastridonicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    You know...I've met a LOT of people who are NOT dancers that have been raped, sexually abused. Why people keep wanting to say that it's just dancers is beyond me. Of course, it's quite apparent in the dance field, since it's all about boundaries. Those dancers who do those extra things have no sense of boundaries...and they're the ones who make the headlines. You'd never see a headline about me, "Dancer approached for extras and says No. Attributes it to boundaries and healthy emotional state." You just see the headlines "Dancer has sex with customer in back room. Attributes it to sex abuse as young girl."
    I know you were illustrating a point venus, but alas you forget one, and probably popular one.

    "Dancer has sex with customer in back room. Attributes it to his attractiveness and her strong emotional state and her ability to have sex with someone she thought was hot."

    My point is, people come in all flavors. Just cause she gives extras doesn't mean she's fucked in the head. Just. Like the rest of us, she's come up with a justification that makes this 'ok' in her head, whether its rape, molestation, drugs...whatever.

    The focus is the fact that its on the sex industry. I work a few of cases where escorting went wrong and there was one girl I remember going to a very prestigious college in this area, excellent average, well-to-do loving supporting family <she loved her family very much and they knew she was a stripper too> she just enjoyed the freedom of dancing and having sex with guys she thought were so-so to hot. And hey, why not get paid? Did this mean she deserved to be raped? Hell no. But society says that in her envirobment, she is just a loaded gun to a murderer and is hoping he doesn't use it.

    This should not be the case. As long as it is LEGAL to work at a strip club, it should not be given any more special concideration than working at WALMART. However the club should employ protection to cover the personality types that club brings in. Weird. Just like walmart security. Walmarts in the ghetto has full staffed body-gaurd-ish security. Ones in higher places have the walmart greeter doubling.

    I am just so sick of hearing about rape cases where the guy tries to pull some variation of "She asked for it" and he gets slapped with the "No means No" answer and sentenced accordingly.

    But, that same court would ACTUALLY concider the possibility that 'No doesn't mean No' or 'Incapability of giving an answer doesn't mean No' simply because she entices sexuality to get money under laws that allow that line of work to exist. She was raped at the strip club she was working in, but since she did extras for the guy once he felt like he had a right to take what he wanted, thank god the excellent prosicuting attourney <I actually sat in on this one> was able to make a point that money has nothing to do with the issue, her saying no to him is no different than a girlfriend saying no to a boyfriend and him taking it anyways.

    Sorry get fired up about shit like this.

    Mast
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    God/dess gypsy_girlchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I went to an all woman's college and had to deal with the same attitude where "we put ourselves in that position". Honestly it's bullshit.
    there is a bill board in my town that says ONLY MEN CAN STOP RAPE. I appreciate that. I have been through a ton of crap in my life, but I try not to let it affect my life because I think I am stronger than that. We can be victims, but only to ourselves. I refuse to let any of my perpetrators have the last laugh.
    I get pissed off about being taken advantage of whether it is a man, customer or even a woman. I WILL NOT be a victim and we DO NOt put ourselves there.
    Honestly this site has become my sanity because on here dancers and custies alike feel the same way.
    And no matter what no means no. I might like it rough, but I still maintain that no means no! I just say "make me."
    Please don't lick me, it tickles..



  14. #14
    Member hopeless romantic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Nobody deserves to be raped, the rapist is always violating a boundary and knows it, they can never be let off the hook by circumstance.

    But...lets be honest. Of course some situations are more risk prone. Putting one's self in them increases one's risk, and though it is insensitive to the person just victimized, other's may often have the reasonable reaction of "perhaps you should avoid that risky situation?".

    You all know stripping puts you at higher risk for sexual violation, that you are playing with fire and that it can be hard to control the flames some times. That's why you have fake stripper names, and bouncers walk you to the car, and numerous threads about stalkers and octopus customers.

    And not to denigrate sexual violation by comparing it to something hugely less severe, but many many around here have little sympathy for a customer who gets emotionally manipulated or conned out of lots of $$$, and that lack of sympathy is usually couched in "its a strip club, he should know what he's getting in to". Or to put it otherwise, that its an inherantly high risk situation he has placed himself in, he is playing with fire, so he shouldn't expect sympathy when he is burned.

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    God/dess greenidlady1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Well, I think it depends on your defination of abuse. Mine is that if you are doing something to me that you don't have permission to do in sexual manner. If you grab my breasts, you go out the door. If you grab my pussy, you get your ass beat then go out the door (hasn't happened yet, thank god). I think with dancing we suffer more mental abuse. We catch hell from the majority of society. They try to degrade us. Also our morals are challenged a lot. "Why are you doing this", "Why won't you go home with me", "How does your boyfriend feel about this", etc. A lot of men that come do view us as sexual objects. And they try to make it known that's what you are. A lot of them also treat us as if though we don't have brains. And of course there is that few who look at use as a complete woman. I try not to take it to heart. Some guys just don't know what the hell to say, especially if they are drinking they don't think.

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    Veteran Member Feiticeira's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I have just as big an opportunity to get sexually aboused by allowing myself to become close with any make as I do as a dancer in a strip club. I've been sexually molested when I was TEN at my besty fried's birthday party by her GRANDFATHER. I doesn't matter who or what you are, it happens.

  17. #17
    Member hopeless romantic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Just to note: because something negative can "happen to you anywhere" or "with anyone" doesn't mean that some situations are not in fact higher in RISK others. Low risk things can happen, lightning can strike you on a sunny day, but that doesn't mean that walking in a thunder storm, on high ground, holding a metal rod aloft is not more dangerous.

    If stripping were not putting oneself in some form of elevated sexual risk, why all the false names, big bouncers, etc? It still doesn't mean you 'deserve what you get'. A taxi driver serving a ghetto doesn't deserve to get shot for a couple bucks fare, the crooks are to blame not him, but then again he is placing himself in a riskier situation, there is no denying it.

  18. #18
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeless romantic
    Nobody deserves to be raped, the rapist is always violating a boundary and knows it, they can never be let off the hook by circumstance.

    But...lets be honest. Of course some situations are more risk prone. Putting one's self in them increases one's risk, and though it is insensitive to the person just victimized, other's may often have the reasonable reaction of "perhaps you should avoid that risky situation?".
    This is hopelessly inaccurate. If it is accepted (as you claim to accept) that no man should be allowed to assault (apply force without consent) a woman, and that "no means no" and, more specifically "only yes means yes" then there are no "higher risk" situations. What you are describing are situations in which you think other criteria vitiate "no" or lack of "yes." All people who respond by asking "why were you in that situation" are doing the exact same thing. It is not a matter of higher risk - it is a matter of fewer personal rights. The very highest "risk" (in the sense of the statistical likelihood that you will be assaulted) - as very likely all of the women here are perfectly well aware - is in your own damn house, when you thought you were safe in your bed by someone who says they love you. Risk is never at issue.

    You all know stripping puts you at higher risk for sexual violation, that you are playing with fire and that it can be hard to control the flames some times. That's why you have fake stripper names, and bouncers walk you to the car, and numerous threads about stalkers and octopus customers.
    This is a little more valid (and I pointed it out on another thread). Very few women here would define all unwanted sexual contact in the club as assault or abuse or harassment. However - there is a big difference in someone grabbing your ass as you walk by and someone holding you down in the VIP or following you home and assaulting you. Again - in this case "risk" is not the issue. If we accept that (under the penal code) only yes means yes then there is BY DEFINITION no duty on the victim to vitiate what you call risk. The "duty" (such as it is) is on the (in this case) guy NOT TO COMMIT FELONIES.

    And not to denigrate sexual violation by comparing it to something hugely less severe, but many many around here have little sympathy for a customer who gets emotionally manipulated or conned out of lots of $$$, and that lack of sympathy is usually couched in "its a strip club, he should know what he's getting in to". Or to put it otherwise, that its an inherantly high risk situation he has placed himself in, he is playing with fire, so he shouldn't expect sympathy when he is burned.
    That is simply not comparable. If the stripper has broken the law he should all appropriate remedy - they should certainly not be vitiated because he is in a strip club. Secondly property, chattel and money may always be contested - what rightfully belongs to whom. Our bodies, on the other hand, are not. They are definitely OURS.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Jenny, you're awesome.

    About the idea that so many women in the sex industry have been raped. Look at the statistics... somewhere between one in three and one in two (or more, depending on the source) adult American women have been raped. Less than one percent of REPORTED rapes are succesfully prosecuted, and only something like eight or four percent are prosecuted at all! Rape of women is implicitly accepted by American culture.

    Rape is a hate crime against women. If someone is raped because they are black, or hispanic, or thai, or transgendered, it is a hate crime and is prosecuted much more seriously. But when someone is raped because they are a woman, it's just everyday America. Ever notice how whenever anyone talks about men going to jail they all say "oooh, he's gonna get butt raped," etc.? You know what the rate is that men are raped in jail? I forget exactly, but it's something like one in sixty... which is almost nothing compared to the rate at which women are raped just walking around, but when women are raped it's normal, so people don't talk about it.

    Lena



  20. #20
    Member hopeless romantic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Nothing I said indicates that I think there are situations in which other criteria vitiate "no" or lack of "yes", nor do I in fact think this. Please don't confuse my acknowleding higher risk with condoning wrong behaviour.

    I'm sorry, this is common sense, just because everyone has a right NOT to be victimized everywhere does not mean everywhere is equally risky for victimization. Rights have nothing to do with risk. If the risk at hand is of illegal or immoral behaviour, its wrong everywhere, but happens some places more than others, its that simple.

    Nobody thinks cops are in the wrong when they are shot in the line of duty, generally, or that by accepting their duties they have waived their rights NOT to be shot, but nobody thinks being a cop, or at least certain cop duties, aren't also higher risk.

    And yes, for all women in aggregate, the most risky place for any form of sexual assault may be in the home. OK, that risk is on average there for all women, so what might make one woman more at risk than another for other assaults elsewhere from non SO's? Are all women equally at risk for being staulked by obsessed customers, semi or fully raped in the VIP room etc etc? To ask is to answer it seems.

    Please, it seems the term "risk" is being confused here with "blame", and thus to defend zealously against the perfectly obvious. My sole point with the clumsy manipulated customer analogy was merely to point out that the tendancy to mix "blame" with participating in higher risk activity is a two edged sword.

    "They had it coming" is a philosophy that can turn around and bite you in the butt really hard.

  21. #21
    Member hopeless romantic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    The advocacy group RAINN -"Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network" says on its website that 1 in 6 women has ever been the victim of an attempted or completed rape.

    The US Dept of Justice National Crime Victimization Survey, based on statistically valid sampling and independant of reporting to police or seeking help, reports that in 2004 the rate of rape and all sexual assault was 1 in 1000, or assuming all victims to be women and half the population to be female, 1 in 500.

    One rape is too many, but one should be wary of inflated and exagerated claims.

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    Featured Member kikin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Does anyone else besides I notice the recent influx of forum n00bs asking pointed questions concerning taboo subjects in stripper life? Could it be some creative writer or some playwright doing research for a new project? Could this said artist be doing this because she/he could not get our pinky friends to complete her/his surveys in the forums? Mmmmhh...what a coincidence?

  23. #23
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Well., it is certainly common. I don't know about sensible.

    Okay.
    Are all women equally at risk for being staulked by obsessed customers, semi or fully raped in the VIP room etc etc? To ask is to answer it seems.
    This is like asking "who is more likely to get raped in Detroit? A woman who lives in Detroit or Boise?" Obviously a woman is more likely to get raped in a VIP if she is actually in the VIP. That does not really speak to risk of rape, only to geophraphy.

    Your other example - Cops. Interestingly enough don't really get shot that much. Leastaways in many cities "police officers" are not the (legal) occupation that is at the highest risk of being shot. Interesting?

    The term "risk" is not being confused with blame. It is simply that we are savvy, bright girls and we have been around the block more than once. We know perfectly well that in the dialogue of sexual assault "risk" has something to do with blame. So let's really unpack this, shall we?

    Okay. We've established that statistically the location you are most likely to be assaulted is not in a club, on a street or on a date but in your home. Seeing as that is the case the neighbourhoods in which most sexual assaults take place - even if your average person could viably be expected to know that might A) not be where you think and B) not be indicative of the kind of risk you are talking about. Moreover, in talking about "risk" we are not talking solely about geographical location. We are talking about behaviour. Thus the "risk" involved is not simply "putting oneself in a questionable position geographically, but behaviourally. For example, wearing certain clothes, going on certain dates, inviting people into your home, accepting rides and, of course, engaging in certain professions. Now really think - WHY is any of this "high risk" behaviour? What is "high risk" about (for example) wearing a short skirt or being a stripper? Nothing inherently. If we remove the discourse of "blame" and "responsibility" (or limit the discourse of responsibility to verbal consent) there is no risk. What is at risk is your rights - what is at risk is the validity of your "no" or "lack of yes." Moreover, what is at risk is the general understanding of what you mean when you say "no" or "not yes." What is at risk is whether or not a man can be expected to believe you when you say no. What is at risk is, in a nutshell, your credibility. Thus, it seems obvious that "risk" and "blame" - what she deserved, what she was asking for, whether she can be believed - are very much intertwined in this discourse.

    As for you statistics - I think that the problem is generally that certain organizations open up the definition of sexual assault, and certain ones limit it. If you consider sexual assault to be full penetration, and exclude issues like unconscious rape, date rape, etc., the number might be smaller (although, frankly, 1 in 500 seems very low to me.). If you include date rape, inappropriate contact, incest, attempted force, etc., etc., it would be higher. Offhand, I can tell you that 1 in 6 sounds much more likely to me, just based on anecdotal evidence. I volunteered in a Rape Crisis Centre in a city of 150 000 - I can guarantee that more than 300 women were raped.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Statistics:

    "Estimates put out by the Federal Bureau of Prisons suggest the rates for male rape inside prison run between 9 and 20 percent. The best and most thorough statistical survey of a prison - a medium security institution in California in 1982 - suggested that 14 percent of that prison's population had been sexually assaulted there." Page 27, Culture of Make Believe, by Derrick Jensen

    "The most sophisticated epidemiological survey was conducted in the early 1980's by Diana Russell... Over 900 women, chosen by random sampling techniques, were interviewed in depth... The results were horrifying. One woman in four had been raped. One woman in three had been sexually abused in childhood" Page 30, Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman

    Assuming no overlap (which of course there is) that's seven in twelve women that have been raped or sexually abused in childhood, which comes out to a little more than one in two.

    Lena



  25. #25
    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Well, hopeless romantic isn't even a stripper, just a customer. No wonder he has little empathy and many misunderstandings for the women who service him. Backseat driver.

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