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Thread: Sex Abuse

  1. #26
    Member hopeless romantic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    statistics: one was the rate within one year, one seems to be something like 'lifetime risk' for a woman of average age, that's why the numbers are so differant. But I guarantee that the DOJ includes non full penetration in sexual assault among many other forms of touching.

    police: ok, nice point, but it still has nothing to do with the analogy. police work need not be the highest risk to be high risk, or to be more precise, higher than normal risk. And of course the core point that blame need not attend participation in elevated risk remains.

    VIP/ Detrioit: ok, got me on imprecise phrasing, but this is a tad pedantic. Do you think the VIP room is equal to all other settings in rate of sexual assaults committed per time or number of persons? My point of course, as I think you know, was not that only persons in Detroit get mugged there, but rather that Detroit is in fact a place with a much higher mugging per capita rate- i.e. higher risk.

    Yes, re all the other, I think we are now finally in some form of agreement. Yes, I totally agree that what is at risk is your rights or whether your "no" is respected or treated as a "yes", and thus under all that fancy talk what is at risk, at least in the sense I meant or the way I limited the discourse, is whether the actual concrete action of a rape or assault happens. In some places or conditions or behaviours some bad people will respect your "no" and your rights more or less than other places and situations.

    Yes, society has traditionally conflated risk and blame in this situation, so I understand the defensiveness, but that still doesn't meant they can't be disaggregated logically.

    If we are discussing a property crime all your points are still valid, but also still are mine, because you seem more focused on blame and specifically legal culpability, while I am focused on probability of occurance, or risk.

    A person has every right to pin $100 dollar bills all over their clothes, and nobody has a right to snatch one off without consent, no means no. But by doing so in itself one is elevating the statistical likelihood of someone not respecting your property rights, or not honoring your "no". If one walks in a neighborhood with a high property crime rate, alone at night, through a crowd, or for that matter ever leaves the house in that money suit, one has never surrendered the moral or legal right to one's money, but one HAS significantly elevated the chances of having someone else, thru their bad behaviour, violate those rights. And someone might say "you might want to put your cash in a money belt under your clothes, just to be safe next time".

    Perhaps stripping and its attendant places and behaviours are not associated with greater frequency of sexual assault, aka riskier, maybe I'm wrong. But, do strippers also use false names when doing errands during the day, or have large intimidating men attend them to Starbucks for morning coffee? If not, then I submit they perceive less risk in those environments. Not NO risk, merely LESS risk.

    Even if there is nothing about the club itself, the act of stripping, being naked and rubbing on men that might elevate risk of a sexual nature, and dancing for a customer in the VIP was the same risk as going on any old date, don't strippers then see thousands more men, and go on thousands more 'dates' than other women? If all men, period, are the problem, wouldn't that still elevate risk?

    Maybe the security measures, like cameras and bouncers and fake names, balance out the risks, like good window bars in a bad neighborhood, but the initial elevated risk I meant is still there.

    Anyway, if my point about risk, or elevated probability of occurance, isn't made yet, I suspect is can't be made in this setting.

    Re: the manipulated customer analogy, I repent of that, it was needlessly insensitive. Severity of violation is critical to how much "shoulda known better" comes into play, and rape is near the top of severity. Sorry.

  2. #27
    Veteran Member Miss_Eliza's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I know a lot of women that have been abused dancer and non dancer. I think that the dancer life style makes us more open to talk about well anything.
    If other women were as matter of fact about this issuse. We would see that it happens A LOT more then its being reported.
    You say psycho like it's a bad thing

  3. #28
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I think the problem is not that you haven't made your point, but that your point is a little faulty. What I mean is: the problem is not with our understanding. It is with your point. I think I already demonstrated how "risk" and "blame" are intertwined? How you can not simply claim to be engaging in one and not the other when you are, by necessity, engaging in both? How risk, in your sense, essentially IS blame? (remember when I said "Let's unpack this"?)

    Indeed, even in your $100 bill analogy - do you not see how you are still engaging in a discourse of "temptation"? That this person is "tempting" people to take his money, and we are, by extension, tempting people to assault us? How you are further, by the nature of the analogy, denigrating our choices and making us irrational? I mean, why would person pin $100 bills to his clothing? If nothing else, he is likely to lose them. We have very good reasons for being dancers. It's our job.

    Also note the context of your post - it is not simply pointing out that women in certain circumstances are at high risk for violence (like poor women, for example). If that were the case then the "risk assessment" and risk avoidance would not be at issue. You have already said that you might ask why a woman puts herself in a high risk situation. So again - engaging in a discourse of blame. You are simply nestling with a prefix: "well of course no means no, BUT...." So it is not just about assessing risk.

    Further, the nature of the original post was, I believe, prevalance of abuse among strippers - not the likelihood that a stripper WILL be raped, but that she HAS BEEN raped. I trust I need not explain the difference. However, I can also say that complicated transactions aside (for example, one might say that ALL sexual interaction in a strip club are unwanted) there is no evidence anywhere (at least there wasn't as of a couple of years ago) that there is a greater statistical likelihood of sexual assault or stalkings of women in the sex trade than the general population. There is, of course, a greater possibility that they will assaulted in the course of their trade.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  4. #29
    Member hopeless romantic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    discourses of blame, discourses of temptation. sorry, I can't defend what I actually put in the lines and also what you read between them.

    Yes, the $100 bill analogy is absurd, but the point is not that it is a perfect analog to the activity of stripping in all facets, but merely to narrowly demonstrate that the existance of rights doesn't eliminate risk. I resorted to an absurd and exagerated analogy to make a narrow and obvious point undeniable against seemingly impenetrable denial.

    I in fact never said I would ASK a victim why they were there, I noted that I, or a reasonable person, or a friend, might advise them to avoid that (arguably) risky place or behaviour. That need not be blaming, only if you insist on reading that tone into me.

    Logically you can only demonstrate that risk and blame may be, or often are, entwined, not that they in fact are now, or are always. So I in fact can claim to be talking about one without the other, logically. You may suspect I intend otherwise, and there is nothing I may do to disabuse you of that. It seems the discussion is no longer about the objective fact of whether stripping is risky, but whether I subjectively intend to imply or "engage in a discourse of" blame, hmmmm, can't prove that and who cares anyway.

    And regarding discourses of temptation, pleeeease. OK, wonder why anyone would possibly associate stripping with tempation, hmmm. Wonder how anyone could think that stripping has anything to do with dangling that tantlizing lusted after goal just out of reach, look but don't touch, or touch here but not there, provocativeness (provocation?), alluring, attracting, enticing, rouged nipples, flattering lines, phermone extracts.... Odd idea.

    But still, all your points about rights and "no" still hold in that tempting situation right? The dude still has a right to his Benjamins, temptation or not, right? Or are you engaging in a discourse of blame on the crazy $100 bill guy, or for a more realistic alternative the dude in his Bentley going thru Compton or the woman wearing her diamond engagement ring to her job in the projects.

    Anyway, you win, I'm blaming, you saw in my head. And strippers use aliases just 'cause its fun, and bouncers are just cuddly good company.

    I also have the impression, perhaps factually wrong, that street prostitutes are at greater risk for all sorts of assault and for being the victims of serial killers, guess I must think they have their grisly deaths coming, shoulda known better, and that the poor poor serial killer was tempted by their vunerability and accessibility as victims, just couldn't help himself. Boy, I'm evil, and I didn't even know I sided with serial killers.

    Sorry if I've been insensitive, I originally meant, or at least believe I meant, who knows, a narrow point, and an attending one that "had it comming" isn't a good attitude in other situations as well.

    BTW, I was sexually assaulted or whatever by two differant dudes when I was quite little, my wife was by an uncle (mildly) as a girl, and she was once attempted kidnapping for assumedly sexual purpose a couple years ago, so I'm not just sitting here looking down my abstract nose and judging anyone. Maybe strip club patrons, or ATM's or PL's as you all call us, are more likely to have been victimized in the past...but wait, am I blaming me?

  5. #30
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Lena
    Jenny, you're awesome.

    About the idea that so many women in the sex industry have been raped. Look at the statistics... somewhere between one in three and one in two (or more, depending on the source) adult American women have been raped. Less than one percent of REPORTED rapes are succesfully prosecuted, and only something like eight or four percent are prosecuted at all! Rape of women is implicitly accepted by American culture.

    Rape is a hate crime against women. If someone is raped because they are black, or hispanic, or thai, or transgendered, it is a hate crime and is prosecuted much more seriously. But when someone is raped because they are a woman, it's just everyday America. Ever notice how whenever anyone talks about men going to jail they all say "oooh, he's gonna get butt raped," etc.? You know what the rate is that men are raped in jail? I forget exactly, but it's something like one in sixty... which is almost nothing compared to the rate at which women are raped just walking around, but when women are raped it's normal, so people don't talk about it.

    Lena
    I dunno.

    A quick google shows reputable sources (law enforcement and college studies outside the enforcement source) putting it at 8% to 31%.

    The more crazy "all sex with a male is rape" crowd throws out the 50%-75% of "womyn" have been raped.

    Then there are those showing statistics that nearly 98% of men incarcerated are innocent of rape (these are the other side of the extreme) where other more mainstream sources saying bad incarcerations are at 50% given the number of men freed with DNA evidence.

    Pretty scary as a guy to know one has a 50-50 chance of being wrongly convicted of rape. Thank God for DNA these days.

    Then throw out the morons who moon the police and now are "sex offenders" for "exposure" and you really have to wonder how meaningful sex crimes really are (though I am not demeaning rape or abuse.)

  6. #31
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by kikin
    Does anyone else besides I notice the recent influx of forum n00bs asking pointed questions concerning taboo subjects in stripper life? Could it be some creative writer or some playwright doing research for a new project? Could this said artist be doing this because she/he could not get our pinky friends to complete her/his surveys in the forums? Mmmmhh...what a coincidence?
    Yes, I have noticed this too.

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I spent a semester working for an agency that did a telephone crime victimization survey for the FBI's Uniformed Crime Report Index-for their self-reported victimization index. I interviewed a staggering amount of "normal" women who reported rape, incest, and other sexual abuse, even one who was kidnapped and talked her perpetrator out of it, and almost all of them told me that they were underage when the act(s) happened to them and that they told their parents/mother because they wanted to report it and they were told by parents/mother that it wasn't going to get reported to the police because they had jobs in the community, didn't want the community to know and didn't want to move-so basically the girl was just told to deal with it on her own. Now if you came from a home like that wouldn't adult entertainment-a business that doesn't require even a GED and you make darn good money-be an easy place for these girls/women to seek employment in order to get out of the situation and be self supporting?

  8. #33
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    ^ Yep. What is asserted here is correct. Sex crimes are under-reported to save face in the community. I guess we're not so different from Muslim whackjobs who do "honor killings" on women in their families.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    The answer is no. Women who have been abused don't feel a special draw to this industry. The generalization to make is that women with severe financial need from parental neglect, single motherhood, and plain ol' debt are strongly drawn to dancing and move on to 'civilian' life.

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Now, it could be fruitful to ask if men who've been abused are disproportionately drawn to this industry, or if men who are abusers are drawn to all-female environments just as child abusers are drawn to all-children environments.

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    This is such a complicated issue, for so many reasons. All I can say is that I was never abused sexually as a child or as an adult, had amazingly good early sexual experiences, and a pretty great and healthy relationship with my own sexuality for my adult life with a short slutty period from 19-22. I have been monogamous for, oh, wow, seven years now. Never have I felt afraid for my safety at work; never have I been drugged or assaulted. Am I incredibly lucky?

  12. #37
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I would say that, based on personal observation and unscientific research, a large percentage of sex workers suffer from childhood post-traumatic stress disorder, not always from sexual abuse. But then we grow up and become adults, do a cost/benefit analysis of sex work, and make our choices accordingly.

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Some thoughts... (May the Holy Bubba help all who may read.)

    First of all, yes, I have no problem saying I went through some fairly extensive sexual abuse as a minor, especially during my teen years. I'm not going to get into the all the details, as that is irrelevant, other than to say that it didn't include incest.

    Second, I'll vouch for the fact that a history of sexual victimization not only did NOT play a pro-sex-work part in my decision to initially start stripping (that had far more to do with economics and situational circumstances), but it actually caused me to think twice - nay, thrice - about it before I chose to go into the field. The rational being, "Well, I've had XYZ victimizations occur in situations that seemed quite innocent and non-sexual. Am I likely to put myself at GREATER risk of further XYZ occurring if I go into an aspect of the sex industry?" Ultimately, I concluded my odds of avoiding XYZ might actually be somewhat *better*, due to the presence of bouncers and the general awareness of such risk that exists within the stripping industry.

    Third, I will say that my final analysis in deciding whether to strip proved accurate - at least for myself... I never once experienced sexual abuse as a stripper, beyond the nightly drunken idiot who wanted to try his luck with grabbing my tit or the like (which is where those wonderful bouncer fellows enter the picture). I experienced less sexually aggressive behavior from males in this work environment than I did working in restaurants, warehouses, factories, and construction sites. And when I had occasion to complain, it was taken far more seriously by strip club staff than it ever was by the management in any of those other environments.

    And finally...

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    Those dancers who do those extra things have no sense of boundaries...and they're the ones who make the headlines. You'd never see a headline about me, "Dancer approached for extras and says No. Attributes it to boundaries and healthy emotional state." You just see the headlines "Dancer has sex with customer in back room. Attributes it to sex abuse as young girl."
    ...and you will never see the headlines about the girls like myself who have been abused and, as a direct result, went the entire opposite direction - a strict personal code of "No Extras, Period." Go figure.

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  14. #39
    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastridonicus
    I know you were illustrating a point venus, but alas you forget one, and probably popular one.

    "Dancer has sex with customer in back room. Attributes it to his attractiveness and her strong emotional state and her ability to have sex with someone she thought was hot."
    You know...I've never met a dancer that did the above. They may have allowed themselves to get involved in a relationship with the guy they were attracted to...but I've never met a dancer that did extras in the VIP just cuz the guy was cute. I find that MOST people who were abused/violated in some ways are USUALLY the ones who allow their boundaries to be continually violated. Does that mean that the girls who come from "loving" homes cannot be violated or don't do some form of extras? No. And, I never said that. My point was simply this: Sex sells...but dysfunctional sex sells more. "Everyone" believes that strippers are drug-addled ho bags who fuck every guy in the dark corner of the club for $5 (unless he's cute, in which case it's free). "Everyone" believes that strippers have been seriously molested as a young girl and therefore cannot form a logical sentence and must be "doomed" to being "nothing more than a stripper". I've noticed that some of the women in my community, when given the option of two strippers (me and the stereotyped one) will always believe that I am lying. That I started dancing, at one point, because "abuse made me do it".

    My point is, people come in all flavors. Just cause she gives extras doesn't mean she's fucked in the head. Just. Like the rest of us, she's come up with a justification that makes this 'ok' in her head, whether its rape, molestation, drugs...whatever.
    And, I never implied anything differently.

    This should not be the case. As long as it is LEGAL to work at a strip club, it should not be given any more special concideration than working at WALMART. However the club should employ protection to cover the personality types that club brings in. Weird. Just like walmart security. Walmarts in the ghetto has full staffed body-gaurd-ish security. Ones in higher places have the walmart greeter doubling.
    So you would be "excited" to read the book called, "Walmart Greeters tell all about growing up as a sexually abused child and how it affects, or hinders, their jobs."

    You never hear about it in the "normal" workplace because IT DOESN'T SELL. Just like, for a while, when people were absolutely dead set in believing that ALL lawyers snort crack to get through their day, or the other myth that ALL lawyers out of law school will make $200,000 a year. It's the case, SOMETIMES, but not all. People like to villify other people...and they will believe anything that fits in the context of what they believe and chuck everything else.

    Like I said before. Sex sells. Dysfunctional sex sells more. Which is probably why you'll never see a book or a movie (that's believed) about a stripper who has "no" issues.

    I am just so sick of hearing about rape cases where the guy tries to pull some variation of "She asked for it" and he gets slapped with the "No means No" answer and sentenced accordingly.

    But, that same court would ACTUALLY concider the possibility that 'No doesn't mean No' or 'Incapability of giving an answer doesn't mean No' simply because she entices sexuality to get money under laws that allow that line of work to exist. She was raped at the strip club she was working in, but since she did extras for the guy once he felt like he had a right to take what he wanted, thank god the excellent prosicuting attourney <I actually sat in on this one> was able to make a point that money has nothing to do with the issue, her saying no to him is no different than a girlfriend saying no to a boyfriend and him taking it anyways.
    Sounds like you had your own issues with this one. If you got this bent out of shape over what I posted last, then, wow.

  15. #40
    God/dess Mastridonicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    Sounds like you had your own issues with this one. If you got this bent out of shape over what I posted last, then, wow.
    My bad, you're involvement in what I posted ended at the inspiration at point number 3. I was never offended or bent out of shape by anything you said And I was still hot on the tails of a lawsuit I worked on.

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    You know...I've never met a dancer that did the above. They may have allowed themselves to get involved in a relationship with the guy they were attracted to...but I've never met a dancer that did extras in the VIP just cuz the guy was cute. I find that MOST people who were abused/violated in some ways are USUALLY the ones who allow their boundaries to be continually violated. Does that mean that the girls who come from "loving" homes cannot be violated or don't do some form of extras? No. And, I never said that. My point was simply this: Sex sells...but dysfunctional sex sells more. "Everyone" believes that strippers are drug-addled ho bags who fuck every guy in the dark corner of the club for $5 (unless he's cute, in which case it's free). "Everyone" believes that strippers have been seriously molested as a young girl and therefore cannot form a logical sentence and must be "doomed" to being "nothing more than a stripper". I've noticed that some of the women in my community, when given the option of two strippers (me and the stereotyped one) will always believe that I am lying. That I started dancing, at one point, because "abuse made me do it".
    Right I agree completely, however the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence. The point here is "Boundaries" and being "Violated" is relative to the person. Who's to say normally good dancer X isn't going to bang this regular she's had the hots for for the last year just because he bought 12 dances in a row and at dance number 7 she got visually aroused? I dunno if I can say it WOULDN'T happen. Everyone in their head has a justification for why they do what they do, some even have tons of regret, but the actions that are called 'Boundary' or 'Violating' are relative to the person. You may not like you nipples touched in a dance, but dancer XYZ does, just only with certain custies. Was she abused? or relaxed? I don't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by VG
    And, I never implied anything differently.
    Yea again, I just used your post as inspiration for mine, I wasn't addressing you directly. Sorry bout that.


    Quote Originally Posted by VG
    So you would be "excited" to read the book called, "Walmart Greeters tell all about growing up as a sexually abused child and how it affects, or hinders, their jobs."
    Then I would find them, ask them their real names, and if the perform extras in the bathroom stalls.

    Quote Originally Posted by VG
    You never hear about it in the "normal" workplace because IT DOESN'T SELL. Just like, for a while, when people were absolutely dead set in believing that ALL lawyers snort crack to get through their day, or the other myth that ALL lawyers out of law school will make $200,000 a year. It's the case, SOMETIMES, but not all. People like to villify other people...and they will believe anything that fits in the context of what they believe and chuck everything else.
    This is truth. My point again is that just because we aren't buying it, doesn't mean its not there Its just in the clubs, its brought more to the service.

    Quote Originally Posted by VG
    Like I said before. Sex sells. Dysfunctional sex sells more. Which is probably why you'll never see a book or a movie (that's believed) about a stripper who has "no" issues.
    Sad ya know? Lets not have abuse, but if we do, lets make tons of money off it.

    Only thing to do is jump over the moon :/

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    I would say that, based on personal observation and unscientific research, a large percentage of sex workers suffer from childhood post-traumatic stress disorder, not always from sexual abuse. But then we grow up and become adults, do a cost/benefit analysis of sex work, and make our choices accordingly.
    There's something to be said for this line of reason, since it presumes adults are inherently capable of making choices for their own benefit, regardless of the circumstances surrounding those choices. To suggest otherwise is insulting and patronizing to sex workers in general, as if they can only do sex work because they were raped, molested, etc., when this is simply not the case.

    Two cents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopeless romantic
    Perhaps stripping and its attendant places and behaviours are not associated with greater frequency of sexual assault, aka riskier, maybe I'm wrong.
    That's a distinct possibility since I think you're working on your hunches, not on actual research. Personally, I'd say the risk of subconciously using prejudicial judgments to assess risk is high.

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeless romantic
    But, do strippers also use false names when doing errands during the day, or have large intimidating men attend them to Starbucks for morning coffee? If not, then I submit they perceive less risk in those environments. Not NO risk, merely LESS risk.
    I think your measuring stick is flawed. Observing that strippers use stage names does nothing to provide us with an accurate measurement of risk. The fact that I don't give my name out to the Starbuck's counter clerk doesn't provide us with an accurate measurement of risk there either.

    The problem I have with people who cite increased risk when talking about sexual assault is that they haven't done their homework. Even citing general statistics isn't as applicable as individualizing it to me specifically. If I'm assaulted on the job, before anyone pulls out the risk card, ask yourself if you can prove there was higher risk than being somewhere else. And then ask yourself where else? At home in bed or at another job? You probably don't know whether or not my behavior was lowering the risk when compared to other strippers' behavior or other women's behavior in environments outside the club. You probably don't know if the club I chose to work was taking precautions to lower the risk. You probably don't know if walking to my car outside my non-stripping job at night is higher risk than working at the SC. Quite frankly, the person making the assertion is probably assuming a whole bunch of elements that they haven't really calculated.

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeless romantic
    Even if there is nothing about the club itself, the act of stripping, being naked and rubbing on men that might elevate risk of a sexual nature, and dancing for a customer in the VIP was the same risk as going on any old date, don't strippers then see thousands more men, and go on thousands more 'dates' than other women? If all men, period, are the problem, wouldn't that still elevate risk?
    Calculated per capita, no. By that observation, I mean to point out you can conclude just about anything with statistics, there are subjective variables in how you look at it. Having said that, let me throw out a competiting conclusion based on no solid research: The women who see thousands are much more experienced at taking precautions to lower their risk; therefore, the answer to your question is no. There, that sounds just as plausible as your assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeless romantic
    Maybe the security measures, like cameras and bouncers and fake names, balance out the risks, like good window bars in a bad neighborhood, but the initial elevated risk I meant is still there.
    Why would the "initial" risk matter? Initial risk existed in your mind before the reality of the security measures were created, and therefore, is totally irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant are the conditions that actually exist now. You just shot yourself in the foot on that one. Can I bandage it for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeless romantic
    Anyway, if my point about risk, or elevated probability of occurance, isn't made yet, I suspect is can't be made in this setting.
    Look, I know you're not trying to say "she deserved it." You're trying to assert that some environments are safer than others and wise people try to play the odds. That is true. But assessing risk can be riddled with subjectivity and it becomes a moral judgment if you conclude you know better than I do. Therefore, I would contend this issue is much less relevant to discussion about assault and abuse than most people make it out to be. Plus the problem with your calculation of risk is that you haven't provided actual evidence that SCs are higher risk than other environments, you haven't provided research comparing other environments to SCs, and even if you provided general information, it wouldn't be specific to an individual stripper's situation and actions possibly mitigating that risk.

    People assume it's riskier because it seems intuitive, and it probably makes them feel good about the places they frequent, but in fact, they don't know in a given situation that it actually was riskier. Then many people other than yourself go the next step and use that unproven risk factor as justification to diminish the culpability of the perpetrator. You won't hear those types of moral behavior cops say something like, "Well, she didn't really deserve it because she switched to a safer club last week." If risk were actually being used neutrally, you'd hear that type of assessment as well. Why, we haven't even touched on making decisions based on not just risk, but risk vs. benefit. Again, moral judgments can creep in. We don't chastise astronauts for choosing to do what they do when a bureaucrat fails to warn about a faulty O-ring, yet risk becomes an element of contention when a stripper is assaulted by a customer.

    -Ev

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    Default Re: Sex Abuse

    Evan Essance, thanks, very thoughtful post and good points all. I certainly don't know more than you nor any of the woman working in clubs, and I am working off hunches not data. In fact, what I was really initially going from was a sense of both seeing in this thread "it is NOT higher risk, how dare people say that! (paraphrase)" but seeing all over the place in this forum "I met this creep, some drunks custy did X, I was stalked last night, I NEVER give even my real first name out because strip clubs have so many wierdos" etc etc etc. I was trying to get at what looked like a contradiction in the opinions of those who know much more than me.

    Thanks for offering to bandage my foot. To reload and take aim again....what I meant was to explain the sense of "higher risk" as I was using it. I mean it like when someone calls somewhere a dangerous neighborhood, or being a cop a risky job, or whatever, even though you can get bars, vest, procedures etc. I mean that even though we all can take precautions that can make an inherantly hazardous situation become less hazardous, or in the end safer than 'normal' (like commercial airline flight), that "initial" inherant risk is still there and needs to be understood. Airline flight is safer than driving your car BECAUSE of all the precautions, I've driven beat up barely running bald tired cars while tired and hung over lots of times- risky, but do that with flying and that "initial" inherant risk will come bite you really bad. You gotta do that pre-flight check list every time.

    Anyway, I'll happily concede I don't know NOTHING in terms of hard cold facts about the risks, and stripping could in fact be safer from sex abuse than being a Sunday school teacher in the end....I'm just happy somebody sees I'm not trying to blame anyone.

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