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Thread: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

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    Default So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    So perhaps if the dancers would realy want to be fair and get rid of the sleazy club owners is to have a chain of Employee Owned Clubs where the dancers own the Club and hire there own DJ and barback. Dancers would vote in new members and buyout old members. Perhaps there could be a Non-Profit Dancers Corp like there is the Local Ballet co. that would do Shows and Bachlor Partys. Here in New York State the Ballet Co gets Arts Funding from the State. So Why not a Non-Profit Burleque Company get arts Funding as well..Like the Rockettes?

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    calm down Norma Rae...this has been done before and didn't work out

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Quote Originally Posted by trainfinder22
    So perhaps if the dancers would realy want to be fair and get rid of the sleazy club owners is to have a chain of Employee Owned Clubs where the dancers own the Club and hire there own DJ and barback. Dancers would vote in new members and buyout old members. Perhaps there could be a Non-Profit Dancers Corp like there is the Local Ballet co. that would do Shows and Bachlor Partys. Here in New York State the Ballet Co gets Arts Funding from the State. So Why not a Non-Profit Burleque Company get arts Funding as well..Like the Rockettes?
    First off, club owners are not sleazy. Not all of them, anyway. That's a pretty bad generalization.

    Secondly, someone has to have ultimate responsibility for running the club. A Liquor License must belong to someone, and they are not easy to get or keep. If another person with any kind of legal issues becomes part owner, the club can lose it's license. Someone needs to be responsible for the lease or mortgage on the building. Someone needs to have profit and loss responsibility, pay the bills and insurances, order the liquor, and schedule the employees.

    Ever hear the saying "Too many cooks spoil the stew?". It is tough enough for two partners to run things, because they can have disagreements. It's why most partnerships are actually 51/49 and not 50/50 - so that one can over rule the other on serious disagreements. A club with 50 owners would be a disaster waiting to happen.

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    Cally
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    First off, club owners are not sleazy. Not all of them, anyway. That's a pretty bad generalization.
    I have to argue that. I have yet to meet a club owner that isnt a dirty horny asshole who thinks he can get away with anything. They either try and fuck the girls out of money or up the ass. I dunno.... im not fond of club owners... mgmt on the other hand. The mgmt at my present club is amazing... just the owner that isnt bright.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    One day.... I would want to open up a club of my own and do things right. But one neat concept is done by Rick's clubs, dancers can actually purchase stock in the Rick's company. It can be motivational.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    I wish there was an "auto-like" setting that I could just have applied to all of your posts Sophia....

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cally
    I have to argue that. I have yet to meet a club owner that isnt a dirty horny asshole who thinks he can get away with anything. They either try and fuck the girls out of money or up the ass. I dunno.... im not fond of club owners... mgmt on the other hand. The mgmt at my present club is amazing... just the owner that isnt bright.
    The owners of the last two clubs I have worked at have been very nice to me and never tried pulling shit. I'm not going to generalize that all club owners are sweethearts, but the opposite is also untrue.

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    Cally
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    anomar I stand corrected then. I guess there are nice owners out there. Hell I just hate everyone in my present mood lol.
    Yes im sure there are nice club owners but I just havnt had the luck of finding one. The mgmt at my club is great the owner just isnt overly bright.
    I guess its like the generlisation that all strippers are bimbos... when the truth is the majority are brilliant people.
    Meh I stand corrected and own up to my mistake

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Quote Originally Posted by trainfinder22
    So perhaps if the dancers would realy want to be fair and get rid of the sleazy club owners is to have a chain of Employee Owned Clubs where the dancers own the Club and hire there own DJ and barback. Dancers would vote in new members and buyout old members. Perhaps there could be a Non-Profit Dancers Corp like there is the Local Ballet co. that would do Shows and Bachlor Partys. Here in New York State the Ballet Co gets Arts Funding from the State. So Why not a Non-Profit Burleque Company get arts Funding as well..Like the Rockettes?
    How do you fit into this? Dancer? Owner? Customer?

    Is anyone else wondering?



    Because there ain't no tits on the radio

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    This guy reminds me of all the bible thumpers that go to strip clubs soley to save dancers
    He won't or refuses to listen to industry employees but is going to keep cramming his views down our throats til he saves us all

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    Cally
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    I was trying to think of what it was he reminded me of! Thanks blade for helping me figure it out! Its the guy who comes to the other club I work at all the time to preach about god. LoL

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Quote Originally Posted by trainfinder22
    Perhaps there could be a Non-Profit Dancers Corp like there is the Local Ballet co. that would do Shows and Bachlor Partys. Here in New York State the Ballet Co gets Arts Funding from the State. So Why not a Non-Profit Burleque Company get arts Funding as well..Like the Rockettes?
    Because even in uber-blue states like yours, taxpayers aren't likely to support public funding for sexually oriented businesses any time soon. In uber-red states like mine this suggestion is ten times as ludicrous.

    Burlesque might be making a comeback in artistic circles, but I doubt top shelf dancers are making $1000/night at it. The SC'ing business has changed quite a bit since it spun off from burlesque a long time ago. The big money today is made in one-to-one dancer-customer interactions doing things that would be considered in many respects "prurient". Dancers are not making money off those customers to be "artistic". Get a clue already.

    Besides, if employee ran co-ops were such a wonderful business model, we'd see them in everything from retail to restauraunts.

    The best solution is to MYOB, particularly when you don't know what in Sam Hill you're talking about.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Quote Originally Posted by trainfinder22
    So perhaps if the dancers would realy want to be fair and get rid of the sleazy club owners is to have a chain of Employee Owned Clubs where the dancers own the Club and hire there own DJ and barback. Dancers would vote in new members and buyout old members. Perhaps there could be a Non-Profit Dancers Corp like there is the Local Ballet co. that would do Shows and Bachlor Partys. Here in New York State the Ballet Co gets Arts Funding from the State. So Why not a Non-Profit Burleque Company get arts Funding as well..Like the Rockettes?
    It has been tried and usually it is a disaster in "Lord of the Flies" fashion.

    And, no, not all club owners are sleezy. Many clubs are corporate and are publicly traded. So it is hard to have an entire board of directors, CEO, CFO and all the share holders wanting to get into the pants of their dancers.

    Doesn't it strike anyone else as strange that this guy suggested a stripper not-for-profit group?? Bwhahahaha! WHATEVER!

    Oh, and BTW, I am doing almost exactly what you suggested. I have a show tonight in which I hired my own DJ and bouncer. There will be 60-70 customers in a private party location, and three dancers will be joining me. It is called a Bachelor party. Dancers do these kind of shows every day of every year.

    Check out this thread: http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58814

    Now go fight a crusade where people really do need saving!


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    This approach, for starters, has exactly the same problem as the 'employee' dancer scenario, in that unequal amounts of effort by different dancers is rewarded by 'equalized' net rates of pay which undercompensate those making the greatest effort and overcompensate those making the least effort. In this case, somebody has to take care of management responsibilities in terms of club finances, in terms of (shall we say) community relations, in terms of 'personnel management' etc. No dancers really are anxious to do this, since of necessity they will have to assume the role of 'ultimate bitch' when economic/political/personnel realities run afoul of the short-sighted unprofessional lethargic tendencies of some of the dancers. The situation becomes even worse when all dancers are 'partners' in the business, which guaranteed that short-sighted dancer democracy will win out over good long term business decisions. Trust me, I wound up having to participate in managing a club at one point in the past, and it was one of the worst experiences of my life ( 90% of the dancers assumed that they could get away with 'murder' in regard to bending rules and shirking responsibilities).

    Of course, in reality this 'partnership' arrangement will amount to nothing if the club is actually a 'going concern' with significant capital investment and a significant cash resale value. Even a 'middle of the road' club probably has at least $1 million book value ... which divided by say 50 dancers results in a 'partnership' price in the $20,000 ballpark. Now ask yourself just how many dancers would consider ponying up 20 grand as a 'buy in' price in order to work in a particular club. On a more basic level, SW members non-withstanding, ask yourself how many dancers could muster 20 grand in credit in order to finance their 'buy in', even if they were to somehow decide that investing to become a 'partner' in a strip club was somehow economically justified versus simply working in other clubs.

    And even if by some miracle enough dancers were willing to become 'partners', the second issue remains of just exactly how they would get their 'partnership' money back out again if forced to relocate / faced with a financial emergency / faced with a huge back tax bill from the IRS, or any of 100 other reasons the dancer might wish/need to move on. Does she simply walk in one night and ask every other dancer to cough up $500 to 'buy out' her 'partnership' ?

    Then there is the huge investment risk that the $20,000 'partnership' shares can potentially be made worthless by the stroke of a city council's pen, as they sign a new adult zoning / zero contact ordinance - or by local bible thumpers picketing/publicizing the club - or by local LE who is not above resorting to busts as a means of soliticing contributions to the 'widows and orphan's fund. Given today's political realities, I'd sooner put my $20,000 into the stock market or other less risky investments than being part owner in a strip club !!!!!

    In the real world, the only way that a dancer owned arrangement can get started is if the club in question is essentially bankrupt to start with, such that no 'straight-up' buyers are interested in making the clubowner a respectable offer. IN that scenario, the clubowner is faced with the choice of losing everything due to bankruptcy versus hanging on to something (even if it is a small percentage of his original investment in the club). In that scenario, dancers might be able to negotiate the purchase of 'partnership' shares at vastly discounted prices which would simply provide enough new cash to keep the club' s creditors placated for a couple of months and keep the club operating a bit longer. But in the long run, in a bankruptcy scenario the odds favor the probability that the inherent problems with the club's business model will remain, that the club will go bankrupt again, and that the 'investment' on the part of the dancers will be wiped out in the process.
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-21-2006 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Why has it not occurred to this person that clubs are run the way they are because they WORK? There have probably been clubs run on all types of business plans, and the ONE basic plan that ALL operating profitable clubs are using is the IC model. There is a reason for that.


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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Nah. I say we make clubs communist - owned by the people for the people. We are all in this together, komrade!

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    A year or so ago I tried to start something like this in Tampa. I received enquires from some dancers on this site and some others I knew. The problem was the same with all of the ladies. No money. I was willing to come up with most of the cash and only wanted a relatively small amount from them.

    I was content to handle the financial side of the business and let the dancers manage the club.

    There were many negatives I encountered in the US about opening a club. The laws make it very difficult to operate.

    I took a couple of month off and went to several other countries to see if it was any better.

    I settled on Thailand because of the cost of opening a new business and the tremendous increase in tourism that is taking place here.

    Good dancers here make as much as a doctor but it is rare for the business minded of them to open a strip club. They normally open a bar or other type of business after they have saved enough from dancing.

    Competition here is a little rougher than the States. When one club area, Clinton Plaza, was getting in the way of a developer the developer hired the cops and army and bulldozed down two blocks of the area early one morning. No one was ever arrested for the destruction and now there is a condo on the site.

    But if you want open a club for one third of what it takes in the States, Thailand is the place to do it.



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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    The trouble as I see it with a " workers co-operative " type idea is what you do when the original dancer/owners start getting past it as dancers. It would be a bit like an NFL club owned by the players how do you fire a decrepit QB if he part owns the team.

    In London there are quite a few women owned pubs/clubs including Browns, one of the more succesful. None of them are ex dancers and as a group I'd say they don't treat the girls any better than the male owners. They may not want to shag them but to compensate thay tend to have favourites and can be very jealous.

    Tyke

  18. #18
    Glamazon
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Isn't that what they have going on at the Lusty Lady Theater in San Francisco? I know they're unionized, but I think they may also be a co-op.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    At the time that the Lusty Lady's dancers were successful in getting their 'employee' status case approved by California courts and DOL, the club was privately owned. Based on the 'employee' ruling, the original private owner was required to start paying dancers by the hour, plus paying proportional workmen's comp/unemployment/social security. This quickly resulted in the original private owner going bankrupt, since no extra business was coming into the club while at the same time he was required to pay out tons of money towards these 'new' expenses.

    When faced with the prospect of the Lusty Lady going out of business and putting all of the 'employee' dancers in the unemployment line (which at least they were now eligible to collect), someone got the bright idea that if the original owner would sell his interest in the club to the dancers that the club would get a fresh injection of cash, the club's creditors would be placated for a little while at least, and the dancers would still have 'jobs'. The clubowner, faced with imminent bankruptcy, sold his shares for a small fraction of their supposed 'free market' value. However, once the deal went through, the dancers themselves quickly figured out that the basic law of economics was still against them, and that they were also in danger of going bankrupt unless they agreed to an hourly pay cut (which at the same time cuts the proportional workmen's comp/unemployment/social security payments the club must come up with.

    They did this (voluntary hourly pay cut) and the club managed to stay solvent ... barely. However, a new problem developed that some of the Lusty Lady dancers who had enough 'customer appeal' to have a shot at getting hired at other clubs and earning much more money were beginning to do so, leaving the Lusty Lady with 'marginal' offerings to customers. As a result, the Lusty Lady then instituted an incentive pay system and cut the hourly pay rate even further.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Co-ops may well be a bad (democratic or communist-like) idea. Employee ownership or partnerships imply revealing income to taxing authorities. No one (except Melonie) talks about any other options.

    So I guess dancers want to continue to be exploited by owner-sleazebags. Good luck changing anything for the better without working at it.

    Seems to me that a lot of educated minds (such as in SW) could come up with a half-way realistic business model or two.
    Last edited by threlayer; 01-27-2006 at 07:09 AM. Reason: (.) phrase misplaced (my dumb edit)
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer
    Co-ops may well be a bad (democratic or communist-like) idea. Employee ownership or partnerships imply revealing income to taxing authorities (except Melonie). No one talks about any other options.

    So I guess dancers want to continue to be exploited by owner-sleazebags. Good luck changing anything for the better without working at it.

    Seems to me that a lot of educated minds (such as in SW) could come up with a half-way realistic business model or two.
    i don't think dancers would have problems with owners cutting them more slack (for example lowering house fees when too high) or trying to exploit their power. and i think that some co-op or dancer-owned places could work with the right individuals....like dancers that have the incentive and desire to stay attached to that club (geographically and otherwise). but some dancers don't want to work long-term, or in one spot, so for them things work as they are.

    however, i do agree that some dancer-owned places would be great who want that....maybe someday there will be more options like you state....thinking on an optimistic note.

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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Or here's a thought...Do what UPS did for their employees, offer stock in the business.

    A dancer might be happier to pay her house fees if every time she did so was esentially buying a portion of the club she works in. She would be more likely to follow that laws and rules, and would be more likely to treat the customers right if it would directly translate into dividends and profit shareing.

    Of course, the dancers would have to have enough financial savvy to understand what they were doing when buying stock in a corporation.

    Co-Op sounds too hippy-ish, but buying stock in the company that you dance for might be a viable option to get dancers and employees involved in other areas of the business.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    I'm all for giving responsible dancers and other club workers an optional advantage in ownership if they want it, as well as a choice of worker status, and all that. But hardly any club current owners would relinquish any control unless the club were failing with no buyers in sight. Further most dancers I know personally would not be interested or able to handle the responsibilities required, but some would.

    Awhile ago a few were asking me to buy a club where they could manage it. I am not that big of a risk-taker with my resources. They probably thought I was a push-over.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    " The Workers and those and Exploit Them have Nothing In Common"-KM


    There are 2 beasts that we are dealing with here..

    1. The truly independent dancer who works a week or two in a club and then moves to the next club. These dancers are famouse porn stars or just what they are good at dancing. They have been around since the days of Mae West and vaiudville. Like Rock and Roll bands they have there own staff and incorperate themselves.

    2. The Dancer that works at the same club exclusilsivly week in and week out.
    The Manager tell that person when to show up and when to go home. He says (Or She) what shift she will work and who will she do lap dances for. If He provides cosutumes,shoes and other suppilies chances that the law says that she is employee. If she can cant get fired for simply not doing what the boss says she is employee. There are laws and even forms that the IRS uses as well as the department of labor uses to determine worker status. The problem is that a lot of people prefer to work under the table. That may be good for the short term but over the long run it can be riskfull as in no state workmans insurance and no unemployemnt and lack of quaters for social security. Like I said before Club Bosses love Independent Contraters because they too can avoid paying taxes. If the IRS can figure how many dancers he has then they can figure out the income.

    3. The Touring Exotic Dance Club....
    Consist of a groups of dancers both Female and Male that travel a region and go from bar to bar doing exotic dance shows..Prevelent in Rural New England like VT And NH. From what I hear these are often the best dancers and they take pride in there work. They look at there proffesion as art form as well as chance to amke some bucks. Kind of like a circus. They are often paid a wage as well as cut of the house. Since the Shows are a group effort everyone shares in the proceeds.

    Synopsise- There seems that dancers as well as other Independent contraters in other industrys must have a choice ofthe conditions that they will work in. The Choice must made as too wheater Exotic dancing is a exploitive labor that degardes women or a trully proffesional and profitble Proffesion that Raises womens standerds by proividing a way to Express the Sexulity thru Eroctic dance.

  25. #25
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: So perhaps the solution is a Dancer Owned Co-Op?

    Damn, you need a spell checker in the worst way. Are you one of those people who parade through San Francisco holding up a mercede's symbol instead of the peace symbol?

    What I am saying, is if you want people to take you seriously - you really need to work on your grammar and spelling.

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