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Thread: Memoirs of a Geisha

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by AudreyLeigh
    I just saw this movie last night after reading the book in a day in a half. I LOVED the book. I was seriously pissed off at the movie. They left out so many important parts of the book that really brought the story together... I give this movie a C-/D+

    HATED IT. I recommend to see the movie FIRST so you dont sit there irritated about all they left out from the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by AudreyLeigh
    I could have sat through another 1/2 hr or hour to complete the story without cutting out parts like the fact that she HAD a danna! And the part about how she went from place to place including her dannas place trying to find somewhere to go when they shut down Gion.... irritated the heck out of me how they cut those parts out.
    Well said! I hated the movie also. Loved the book until it ended a little too 'fairy tale' for my tastes. Seriously thought it was a true memior until then. At least in the book there was a slight save on that one- but then the movie made it even more sugary!!! Ackkk!
    I understand the need for editing, but leaving out the important parts; some of which you make references of; while dragging out inane scenes like her crawling on the roof, WTF?! Also, why was Hatsumomo's hair down all the time? In the book it was a very big deal about the hair and that finally seeing it down was an indication of how far she had fallen! I felt, too, that the movie alternately sweetened up/completely ignored how cruely Chiyo was treated....This is turning into a rant, I'd better stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefa
    I could not take this movie seriously. I haven't gone to see it. It is a JAPANESE story with JAPANESE characters, and they cast it almost entirely with CHINESE actors.
    My bf noticed this, and wondered the same thing. I wonder what the deal was.

  2. #27
    Member KING OF SEX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio
    sure she was, because there are about 100 true Geisha left in Japan today.
    Are you doubting my word sir? because I know Ms Rhiannon comes down pretty hard on trolling round these parts.
    Warning Level - 15. I'm bad news, baby.

  3. #28
    Senior Member NaughtyAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    Actually, although the 3 main female characters are indeed all played by Chinese actresses (who don't look Japanese at all to my eyes), the main male characters are played by Japanese actors, as are a bunch of the supporting female characters, including the main character as a child. There are even a couple of westerners in it playing Japanese roles. The cast is listed at
    http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808405115/cast
    and you can distinguish the Chinese and Japanese by their names, if you care.

    You are not alone in disliking this casting of course; there has been a lot of fuss and ciriticism over the big female parts going to Zhang, Yeoh and Li, particularly in Japan itself. But personally, I don't see why it is such a big deal anyway. No one is annoyed if an American is cast as a German or Brit or Russian etc or vice versa in a Hollywood movie. Why should nationality be a huge issue in casting asians if it is not in casting westerners? It is certainly true that the Japanese and Chinese people are quite different culturally and in many fundamental ways, but if an actor/actress can be asked to play a hobbit or an elf, or a Vulcan for that matter, what is wrong with asking them to play a nationality other than their own?

    -Ww


    It may be because Japanese soldiers raped many Chinese women and killed many Chinese at Nanking (See the Rape of Nanking for further indo) Meaning... there has been alot of strain between the Japanese and Chinese for centuries so I can understand the animosity especially from the Japanese but then it may have been done purposefully since throughout Japanese history the emperor has explicitly stated that they descend from God and therefore are superior.

    Anyway I am part Chinese just in case people think that I am not part Asian and/or do not know much about Asian history LOL

  4. #29
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by KING OF SEX
    Yes, this friend of mine used to be a geisha ...
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio
    sure she was, because there are about 100 true Geisha left in Japan today.
    Quote Originally Posted by KING OF SEX
    Are you doubting my word sir? because I know Ms Rhiannon comes down pretty hard on trolling round these parts.
    Well, I can't speak for scorpio, but I most certainly do doubt that you have a friend who was ever a "real" geisha, in the sense of having completed the many required years of rigorous training and apprenticeship in one of the few remaining geisha houses, these days only to be found in the Gion district of Kyoto I believe. Not only are such women now extremely few, as scorpio points out, but I'd guess any who ever left the profession and so now only "used to be" a geisha are still far more rare, since it pays incredibly well and requires years of devoted effort to achieve. Moreover, I suspect that there are few, if any, present day geisha that speak English (why would they?), but maybe you speak Japanese?

    All that said, it seems perfectly possible to me that you have a friend who told you that she used to be a geisha or even who once actually worked in a job in which she was described as a "geisha" in some less correct/rigorous sense. Even some Tokyo soaplands (basically upscale, full service brothels) describe the women they employ as geishas, but it is nothing but an advertising ploy in reality.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  5. #30
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyAngel
    It may be because Japanese soldiers raped many Chinese women and killed many Chinese at Nanking (See the Rape of Nanking for further indo) Meaning... there has been alot of strain between the Japanese and Chinese for centuries ...
    Yeah, there are for sure a lot of bad feelings between the two countries, going back to WW2 and earlier, plus continuing to today (remember all the violent anti-Japanese riots in China just last year?), but again, that is also the case for many western nations. But that doesn't keep the movie industry from routinely asking actors/actresses from one country to portray characters from the other. How many American actors portrayed Nazis even during or in the years immediately following WW2...or Russians in the depths of the cold war? That is why they call it *acting*; the person is pretending to be someone that they are not in reality!

    In any case, as someone mentioned above, the primary reason that they used Chinese actresses for these parts in the movie is probably simple, namely that there are no suitable Japanese actresses available with comparably bankable international reputations, especially in the US. I am not sure what other pics Li has appeard in, but Zhang and Yeoh are already well known for movies like Crouching Tiger and some James Bond flicks and such.

    Btw, the movie was supposedly financed in considerable part by Japanese investors who did not object to the casting...presumably because they were mostly interested in seeing it make as much money as possible and so cared more about the "name recognition" of the leading ladies.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  6. #31
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio
    Think of it this way-as a stripper, what is your job? You sell a fantasy. You talk to the lonely gentelmen, you liven the party, you engage in conversation with the out of town business man, you send a man home to his wife with butterflies in his stomach from talking to you....You are born from the same tree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan-Va
    Ever since I read the book I've seen a conection between Entertainers and Geishas.
    I agree that one can see strippers as a sort of modern, western "cousin" of the geisha, but in Japan itself, I think that their closest existing modern equivalent are the "hostesses" employed in huge numbers by the countless small bars, especially karaoke bars, all over the country. Like the geishas, while some hostesses might be the sugar baby or mistress of one or even a few wealthy and favored customers, they never have sex with, are hardly even touched by, the large majority of their clients...and certainly not on any hourly or per session basis like that of a conventional prostitute. Rather they are hired by the hour to be hostesses, entertainment and "social lubricant" for Japanese salarymen, usually out on the town in groups to party and network. I have spent some time in hostess bars and to the (obviously limited) extent that I understand traditional Japanese culture, these hostesses are to geisha as modern Japanese salarymen are to the ordinary samurai of earlier historical periods.

    Back in the days of the Japanese "bubble economy", it was pretty common to find western women working in one of the specialized gaijin hostess bars in Tokyo for a few months (usually limited by 90 day tourist visas) to make money to finance their wanderings around the globe. Their lifestyle and experiences were not all that different from those of western dancers working in the gaijin strip clubs at that time, to the extent I could judge.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  7. #32
    Member KING OF SEX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    I was going to do this via PM, but apparently my pming rights have been taken away, so this is my friend

    http://www.hanayo.com/bio1/bio.htm



    The rest of the discussion is fair enough. You may continue.
    Warning Level - 15. I'm bad news, baby.

  8. #33
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by KING OF SEX
    I was going to do this via PM, but apparently my pming rights have been taken away, so this is my friend

    http://www.hanayo.com/bio1/bio.htm
    Interesting. It is hard to tell from the info on the link whether or not she ever studied to be a geisha in the traditional way, in one of the long established geisha houses of Gion, but it does look like she studied some of the traditional Japanese performance arts associated witih geisha in some way. Then it looks like she sort of dropped out of the track to become a geisha in the classical sense and switched to some sort of career aimed at being a model or pop star; this would, of course, be far too public a career and lifestyle for a geisha in the traditional sense. I have heard of, and even been to, some of the places in Tokyo mentioned in her online bio (e.g., The Shelter); they are VERY pop culture oriented, not traditional at all. Then there is the bit about "finishing her work as a geisha" and moving to Europe...makes it sound like a pile of dishes she had to finish washing before she could get on with her career and life. Again, this is very much not in the traditional mold of a geisha, which is a life long career usually.

    However, all that said, it does seem that her claim of having been a geisha is not total BS; it is not the traditional/conventional meaning of the term, but it is also not completely unrelated perhaps.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing...interesting reading.

    The rest of the discussion is fair enough. You may continue.
    Thanks!

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  9. #34
    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwanderer
    In any case, as someone mentioned above, the primary reason that they used Chinese actresses for these parts in the movie is probably simple, namely that there are no suitable Japanese actresses available with comparably bankable international reputations, especially in the US. I am not sure what other pics Li has appeard in, but Zhang and Yeoh are already well known for movies like Crouching Tiger and some James Bond flicks and such.
    Don't forget that quite a few of those women also appeared in "The Joy Luck Club" (awesome movie, BTW) which did really good at the box office and was the "doorway" for some of the actresses into Western movies.

  10. #35
    Veteran Member TarynJolie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    I agree that one can see strippers as a sort of modern, western "cousin" of the geisha
    I very much agree, at least when it comes to the showclub, no contact work. Other types of entertainers also combine some of the same traits as well.

    Interesting turn of this discussion

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Having read the book, the reviews, and being a bit of a Japanophile I was hesitant about seeing the movie, but I did and I really liked it. I read the book about 6 years ago so I remembered the main storyline but not the details so I wasn't too irked by the changes.

    I was in Japan last fall and saw the Geisha perform their autumn dance in Gion, it was SO beautiful, so I was thrilled to see them do the spring version in the movie. When it comes to Japan I feel such a longing.....

    Apparently it's not a chick flick as I've talked to many guys that LOVED it. I guess there are a lot more men entranced by the allure of untouchable beauty and mystery than our culture provides.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    I thought the movie was beautifully done, I'd read the book a few years ago when it first came out...so it wasn't fresh in my mind enough to realize how many details were left out. Details left out or not though, in its own right, I thought it was a great film.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Wwanderer, Hana described herself as more of a 'tourist' geisha if that clarifies things. I've never been to Japan but find it a fascinating culture and the women are hot too, if sometimes a little too servile for my tastes.

    I should also say that although I described her daughter as selfish she is actually the sweetest little girl in whole world and I love her to bits.

    And well-made or not, this film is definitely a chick-flick. Are there any explosions? Robots? I rest my case.
    Warning Level - 15. I'm bad news, baby.

  14. #39
    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by KING OF SEX
    Wwanderer, Hana described herself as more of a 'tourist' geisha if that clarifies things.
    "Tourist geisha" sounds about right and is a clever/marketable concept too. Anyway, even if she is not a "legit geisha", as I have argued, she does seem to have a more reasonable claim to describing herself that way than I expected when I read your first post, so my apologies for not taking your word more seriously.

    Btw, "hana" is a Japanese word that means flower or blossom, but also nose...perhaps some other meanings too probably, but those are the ordinary ones. It was a common woman's name a few centuries back, in feudal Japan, but is rarely used as a name these days. It is probably some sort of working or stage name she adopted and is an appropriate one, a good choice, imo.

    I've never been to Japan but find it a fascinating culture and the women are hot too, if sometimes a little too servile for my tastes.
    Man, you really should try to get there sometime...for an extended stay, not just a blow-through-and-see-the-sights visit, if possible. I have been A LOT of places in the world, and there is no place like it, not even close, in many many ways (some good, some bad). Not to be missed if you like travel, imo.

    As for Japanese women, incredibly hot indeed. Their two typical irritating traits are a tendancy to act like little girls as a mode of flirting and the most peculiar and grating vocalizations during sex (many sound like small animals in torment). These are offset, however, by a host of charming traits and behaviors.

    And well-made or not, this film is definitely a chick-flick. Are there any explosions? Robots? I rest my case.
    There is one sequence with warplanes flying overhead, maybe even a couple of distant explosions (I don't recall for sure), to indicate the intrusion of WW2 on the geisha world, but I can't deny your basic point - all the markings of chick-flick. But it is not really a typical one in some way I can't quite define; the typical chick-flick makes me more uncomfortable than dental surgery, but MoaG was very easy and enjoyable to watch.

    -Ww
    Last edited by Wwanderer; 01-25-2006 at 11:59 AM.
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  15. #40
    Featured Member scorpio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by KING OF SEX
    Are you doubting my word sir? because I know Ms Rhiannon comes down pretty hard on trolling round these parts.
    I would never doubt "the King"

    Anyways, the link you provided is interesting, but as someone pointed out, there are many "Hostess" girls, and psuedo modern "Geisha" in japan today. Authentic traditional Geisha, Very, Very few, and only in Gion. An authentic Geisha wouldn't be caught dead within 2 miles of a pop concert. Especially Japanese pop, which sounds like small childrens heads being squeased until they shreik.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: Memoirs of a Geisha

    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio
    Especially Japanese pop, which sounds like small childrens heads being squeased until they shreik.
    http://extreme.colonelblimp.com/dire...ayo_joe_30.mov
    Warning Level - 15. I'm bad news, baby.

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