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Thread: Salem Witch Trials

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    Default Salem Witch Trials

    Rhiannon gets down...

    I love it. Now tell, me, since you obviously know more about this than I do--was anyone ever drowned as a result of the 'witches float' test, or did they actually do it at Salem? It's been a while since I read up on this, so I forget--but I thought they had. Did they fish them out so they could humanely hang them? Or is this just another myth like the burnings.

    Didn't the whole thing start when some teenage girls were caught having a little bisexual orgy? Not wanting to admit they were naughty, they came up with the 'bewitched' excuse, correct?

    I'm not all that impressed by the confessed witches, they may have been going with the easy way out--easier than getting crushed by rocks or half-drowned, anyway.

    The methods of execution and interrogation were imported from England, correct? Was rock-crushing common there, perhaps a century or so before the less tolerant Puritans sought the religious freedom to make everyone pray the same?

    And obviously the accused witches were considered guilty. Hell, I would only admit to being a witch if I thought they might crush me or make me breathe water. Not to pick nits with a superior nitpicker, lol...

    Were any of them in their own minds witches, for real?

    Perhaps this should be a new thread, but I love talking to people who know their history.

    Later--it should be a new thread, so I made it one, lol. Since no one is likely to get riled up about it, I did it here.

    Rhiannon, if you answered my questions there, sorry it took so long. I've been too busy to get wireless hooked up so it's still glacially slow dialup for me.
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Dammit. Yeah, I replied. Oh well, copy & paste time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    Rhiannon gets down...
    Fa Sho.

    I love it. Now tell, me, since you obviously know more about this than I do--was anyone ever drowned as a result of the 'witches float' test, or did they actually do it at Salem? It's been a while since I read up on this, so I forget--but I thought they had. Did they fish them out so they could humanely hang them? Or is this just another myth like the burnings.
    The float method (including binding their hands and feet) was used in very few cases if any, so few that there are really no official records on who it was performed on in Salem (who survived, who died, etc). It did originate in England, and on the bright side, if the person did float in England, they were proven innocent. In Salem though, it's said that if/when that was used, it proved the opposite. The accused supposedly could float because of the "Devil's Aid". Basically, anyone who may have suffered this in Salem couldn't prove their innocence either way, and were doomed. If they floated, they were proven a Witch.. If they didn't float--well, they died. But again, there are no actual records that this was actually performed there in Salem. In England though, I'm sure it was used regularly.

    The most common method of "proving" that someone was a Witch though, was exposing them in front of the accusers and the court and checking them for "marks", some marks that could resemble teats.

    Another method that they believed to be effective, was to make the accused attempt to recite the "The Lord's Prayer". They believed that a Witch could not recite it in its entirety. Most of the people that could not of course, were too scared to even remember their own names. But, that was proof enough for the officials.

    In a lot of cases though--Especially with in the cases of the executed. Accusations were enough. The fact that they were considered "odd" or outspoken was enough. Sad, but very true.

    Didn't the whole thing start when some teenage girls were caught having a little bisexual orgy? Not wanting to admit they were naughty, they came up with the 'bewitched' excuse, correct?
    Some say it was an orgy, but history claims that Ann Putnam and a group of her friends would listen to Tituba (A Servant) tell tales of Voodoo and Supernatural events. They would also engage in fortune telling. It's said that the girls felt guilty after listening to such things, and engaging in fortune telling, that they had either gone hysterical, or acted hysterical. While it may not be known for sure whether it started with an orgy, it did start with Tituba. She was the first accused. But of course, she confessed.

    I'm not all that impressed by the confessed witches, they may have been going with the easy way out--easier than getting crushed by rocks or half-drowned, anyway.
    Well, I don't know. I'm pretty impressed. They were smart about it. They knew that if they confessed, and denounced others, they would live. I'm pretty sure I would have done the same.

    The methods of execution and interrogation were imported from England, correct? Was rock-crushing common there, perhaps a century or so before the less tolerant Puritans sought the religious freedom to make everyone pray the same?
    I'm pretty sure that most of the interrogation and executions originated in England. They had to start somewhere. Pressing was not widely used anywhere, but again, it could've originated in England. But, Giles Cory was the only one to suffer that fate in Salem, and it was only because they really wanted him to confess to save himself. He refused to enter any plea of any kind.

    And obviously the accused witches were considered guilty. Hell, I would only admit to being a witch if I thought they might crush me or make me breathe water. Not to pick nits with a superior nitpicker, lol...
    Again, I would've done the same. The alternative was death of course. Who really wants that?

    Were any of them in their own minds witches, for real?
    Tituba proudly admitted it (Okay, she was beaten into admitting it, but she sang like a canary when she finally did). I'm sure that any of the confessed were Witches, or at least believed they were to some extent. The "proof" was out there, any kind of divination (fortune-telling, etc) would get one thinking that they were actually Witches.

    Perhaps this should be a new thread, but I love talking to people who know their history.
    I've researched this for years (There is ALWAYS more to learn, as with anything), and have gone to Salem regularly (pretty much since I could crawl). Unfortunately, now that we're so far away, it's not possible to go (Only times I avoided it was Halloween.. Too many fluffies & Playgans screaming that they too are so persecuted). It is a fascinating subject without a doubt. But I do recommend actually going to Salem if you ever have the chance. Visit the houses of the executed. Rebecca Nurse's house is in Danvers, but the feeling of being in that house is indescribable.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Thanks, I like this...

    When I said "impressed", it was the wrong word--I meant I doubted that they all really thought they were witches themselves.

    After all who wants to die? I doubt I'd be very good at being so tough as this Giles fellow--after the third rock I'd be hollering Satanic curses with great enthusiasm, lol.

    What do you know about modern witches? Is it Wiccam they call it, or something?
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    No problem at all.

    As for Modern Witches, yes. They are mostly called Wiccans. It's been said a bunch of times that I'm iffy on it all. There are good and there are not-so-good with any type of path. That's about all I'm going to say on that topic though, out of respect for members who may be Wiccan.

    I'm a stuffy old Hereditary, and I don't really like anything that's "modernized" much anyway.

  5. #5
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Putting in another angle to the historical persecutions of "differently spiritual" people: my half-Jewish ex pointed out that part of the Spanish Inquisition had to do with seizing land & possessions from people who were not of the majority religion & therefore vunerable....
    My point- one aspect of why the Salem Witch Trials got so big could have been members of the Puritan community wishing to seize houses & land owned by defenseless old women & "undesireables"?
    IMO, the ergot rot (hallucenogenic mold the girls ingested) was the culprit.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    I kind of like the idea, so long as they didn't get too creepy or too much into it, to the extent of Satanic stuff, etc.

    But there are a lot of proven herbal remedies, etc. Also the whole Earth Mother religious sentiment can be appealing.

    I remember quite well a radio talk show I used to listen to now and then. they had some guy on there trying to get custody of his kids. He was outraged that his wife was a witch, and was into Mother Earth instead of Jesus. When he said "How about mentioning Jesus, he's the one that created the earth after all!" I tried calling him up to ask if he was there to see it happen, lol.

    Hey, I'd be leery maybe if the woman was whacked out about it, but nothing wrong with an alternate religious view that respects the earth, and isn't all wrapped up in 'Sin', 'Hell', prayer as an answer for any and all things, you know...

    Ok, this Tituba. Was she West Indian? The name would seem to indicate this, and would possibly account for her genuine belief in witchcraft--or something tantamount to it in the eyes of those freedom-seeking Pilgrims.

    What are some good sources for the originating incidents that led up to the trials? I'd be interested to find out if it was as a result of naughty sexual goings on. I remember a really cool high school teacher who was unafraid of the staid Maine ways and read a passage describing the girls getting caught and trying to get out of it by blaming witchery (Tituba I guess, lol).

    The guy was not only very ballsy for doing this and other things of a distinctly unorthodox nature in a New England high school (like citing some unflattering and humorous textual passages concerning George Washington, for instance), he was very smart for a high school teacher, and seemed to have his sources down pretty well.

    I am actually amazed he never got fired--maybe it was becasue he was so very intelligent, and was careful to provide source material without pronouncing judgement. I was onto him, however--I knew something was up by the way he would smile as he read some shocking and provocative text, and discovered later he was a Socialist--not that this is inherently evil, lol...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Tituba was from Barbados I belive, but yes West Indian anyway. Have you read The Cruciable that's based upon the trial?
    Info here


    General torture methods


    I've not heard that floating prooved inocence in England. One reason women floated btw was because they wore long dresses and petticoats so air would get trapped in their layers of clothing and cause them to float un-naturally when they were dunked into water. When I went back there last year I remember one of the tour guides commenting that it was quite common to see friends and relitives of the accused witch throwing rocks and stones at the floating woman in the water because it was much better for her to drown than live thus showing she was guilty and then be faced with much worse torture. Also I supose if she drowned and was therefore proven innocent it meant there was less chance of those around her being accused of witchcraft too.

    I had more to add but the guy next to me is chatting away to me, lol!



    Toture methods


    I think the mass hysteric about witches originated from the Catholic church in Europe. I have a couple of books on the history but they are in Queensland and i am not currently. I can't find anything online as to what torture originated where.
    Last edited by aussiepunkshocker; 02-07-2006 at 07:40 AM.

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    Veteran Member soybeangirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Ok this really has nothing to do with witches but i was at the salem witch museum once with my mom. So we are standing around this red pentogram in a circle with about 30 strangers and it is DEAD silent in the room and my mom blurts out in a REAAAALLY southern accent, "betsy, did you know stevie nix was a witch?" I wanted to be burned at the stake after that. It was so embarrassing.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by aussiepunkshocker
    Tituba was from Barbados I belive, but yes West Indian anyway. Have you read The Cruciable that's based upon the trial?
    The Crucible does have some truth to it, but a whole lot of fiction as well. One of my biggest gripes is that the story included an affair between John Proctor and Abigail Williams. It's an affair that never was. John was in his 60s, Abigail was 12. It simply didn't happen. But, Arthur Miller had to spice things up a bit. Make it more exciting, I suppose.

    I definitely wouldn't use the book (or movie) as research on the Salem Trials.

    I've not heard that floating prooved inocence in England.
    I've read that in many sources.. One is Wikipedia:

    One of the common tests was to tie the hands and feet of the person (and sometimes enclose the person in a bag) and throw him or her into a river or pool. It was held that if the person managed to float, this was due to the Devil's help. Such a person was thus found guilty of witchcraft. If the person could not float then he or she was considered innocent, but this acquittal came too late because the accused had by then drowned. In England the person that could float was often considered innocent.

    There were a few books I've seen it in as well. As soon as I wake up a bit more, I'll be able to remember the names and I'll post it.

  10. #10
    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Thats cool - there are bound to be contradictions so no need for quotes and stuff cos we're both going to have em. I it could be a regional thing possibly. (-:

    Edited to add - I when discussing history with friends I have come to realise that what one person has studies and learnt may be totally the opposite of what another person has, usually depending on their geographical location when studying - it's crazy!

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Exactly.. Every different part of the world has its own take on the Witch Trials and the Burning Time(s). Some even claim that they never happened at all. Of course, much history proves that it did, but how it all happened is always debated.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Thanks so much, Rhi, APS, and MM!

    This is fascinating stuff...

    I wish that historical novels and movies would quit trying to spice things up, like that execrable TV movie/series on Attila the Hun. He was not the hunk studmuffin, like they cast that guy as him--he didn't have to be.

    But getting back to the witches, etc., I didn't know about the ergot rot theory. I do know from personal experience that hallucinogenic drugs will make you see some pretty strange things, lol--I can only imagine the effect it would have on a bunch of teenage girls stuck out in the boonies with a bunch of hardcore jesusfreaks...

    I also didn't know that the girl was only 12, I had thought they were like 15-16, which is a lot older, relatively speaking, for frontier times. Hell they were getting married at 12-13 in other parts of the frontier/colonial areas.

    So I wonder how Tituba got into the picture? Slave, indentured servant (often for all intents and purposes the same thing), or what? Did they bring her from England? Was she old, young, or in between? Did she take part in the possible sexplay--maybe she was trying to get her way with them?

    Sorry about all the questions, but history is my thing, especially strange stuff like this. One of my favorite characters from history is Theodora (wife of Justinian, and arguably the real power behind the throne), who was a most formidable woman--and kind of a bitch, to say the least--but you have to admire her spirit!
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Tituba was a slave in the Parris home. There are many different stories on her and where she came from. Some sources will say Barbados, some say Africa, and some say she was "purchased" from England. Unfortunately, there are no definite documents on Tituba to prove anything conclusive. I've watched documentaries in the past, and one had even had her named as Tatuba, not Tituba. Some sources even have her age listed as young as 12, to mid-30s.

    is a pretty good article about her. It debunks some myths, and states some facts. But remember, no two articles are alike. What this one states as fact, others will say is BS.

    You can check your local library for research materials. Most even have VHS tapes on documentaries regarding the Witch Trials of Salem. One that I highly recommend is "In Search Of History: The Salem Witch Trials". It's an A&E special that they normally show around every Halloween. But, you can also purchase it from the A&E site. I suggest going to eBay if you're looking to buy it though. Much cheaper.

    There are a few more, but I can't remember the names. It's been a very long time since I've watched any of them. Never bought any, I've just worn out my library cards borrowing them. Heh. If I can remember them at some point, I'll PM you the titles.

    For shits & giggles, you can check out "The Crucible" movie. It's a good movie, I'll give it that. But it's in no way a documentary. There are a few versions, but I'm partial to the Daniel Day Lewis/Winona Ryder version. One of the most memorable scenes in the movie though, is the pressing scene of Giles Cory. It's pretty spot-on.

    If you're interested in learning more, and even looking at the documents of the Trials, here are some links that might help you out:






    Those are just a few from Google, I'm too lazy to go through my bookmarks right now.. But you can also just search for the Trials, and you'll get a ton of information.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by aussiepunkshocker
    Tituba was from Barbados I belive, but yes West Indian anyway. Have you read The Cruciable that's based upon the trial?
    Just remember that "The Crucible" was, while portraying the Salem Witch Trial, an allegory and cuationary tale directed at the McCarthyism of the 1950s.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    I was waiting for my favorite Nestorian Christian king to chime in on this one, lol...

    Thanks for the links, Rhiannon. And the movie sounds good, even if it plays with the real story.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Senior Member dolliest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    some very good sources for the witch trials in general (providing some good context for the ideas the puritans used)

    The Malleus Malefactorum, basicaly a guide book for witch hunters. Though catholic in origin, the ideas in it provided a serious baseline for both branches of christianity

    Religion and the Decline of Magic by Keith Thomas, a great study of british thought and practice in regards to christian views of witchcraft and folk magic

    Witches and Neighbors by Robin Briggs a more mainland eurpean centered treatent of the subject, very interestingf or its discussion of local social dynamics in accusations.
    We can move with savage grace to the rhythms of the night
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Thanks, that Briggs book sounds particularly interesting. Much as we are shocked by the Salem thing, in Europe it was a hell of a lot worse, especially a bit earlier on. No doubt greed or envy could play a part, as well as the common fear of nonconformity.

    The Zulus had a method of finding witches which was very dependent on peer judgement--literally. They called it "sniffing out". Everyone would make more noise when the (good) witch doctor came close to the suspected (bad) witch.

    Naturally, the guy with all the fat cattle and such that everyone hated for it was at risk.

    Then they would kill the poor witch by pounding a succession of sharp sticks up their ass.

    Supposedly Shaka Zulu curbed this practice somewhat, but was otherwise a brutal and pretty messed up in the head kind of guy, especially where his mom was concerned. Like no one was allowed to fuck or do anything fun after she died, or they would kill you.

    He was supposedly motivated partly as a desire to compensate for everyone making fun of his tiny pee-pee when he was a kid.

    Anyone who knows more about this than I do, please come forth and tell us about it...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    i seriously doubt it was the ergot. ergot is a toxic form of mold that grows on grain, but its hallucinogenic properties are destroyed by cooking the grain. furthermore, you need to consume a good deal of the raw grain in order to be affected- it won't happen from just nibbling a stem. so unless they were grazing like horses, the ergot can't be blamed. and if they were, indeed, grazing like horses, they were already crazy when they started, so it still can't be the ergot.

    my personal opinion is that the real problem was religious hysteria and rampant misogyny.... which has existed for several thousand years now in western society. if drugs were really to blame, don't you think that we would have eventually noticed that those mushrooms were not, in fact, telling us the truth when they sang? a great many people take drugs, but few are under the illusion that the drugs are harmless food that has no psychological effects upon them whatsoever.....
    Last edited by venusofwillendorf; 02-08-2006 at 09:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Well, you can always tell a witch by weighing her.


    Duck:

    An aquatic bird that, in medieval times, was used to find out if a person was a witch or not.

    This stems from the very logical idea that if a person weighs the same as a duck, then that person is made of wood (because both ducks and wood float in water). And since wood burns (just like witches) then that person must be a witch, because witches are made of wood.

    Therefore, the accused person(s) would be placed on a scale next to a duck, and if they balanced, the person(s) would be burned.
    So, if she weighs the same as a duck, then she's made of wood. And therefore... A WITCH!

    In case you question, here's the mathmatical proof:


    Suppose the witch weighs W pounds, and the duck weighs D pounds. Also, suppose their average weight is A pounds. (Their combined weight is 2A)

    W + D = 2A. (Given)
    W = 2A - D. (Subtract D)
    W - 2A = -D (Subtract 2A)
    W(W - 2A) = W(-D) (Multiply by W)
    W(W - 2A) = (2A - D)(-D) (Substitute 2A-D for W using the given equation)
    W² - 2AW = -2AD + D² (Distribute)
    W² - 2AW + A² = D² - 2AD + A² (Add A²)
    (W-A)(W-A)=(D-A)(D-A). (Factor)
    (W-A)² = (D-A)². (An expression times itself equals the expression squared)
    (W-A) = (D-A) (Square root)
    W = D (Add A)

    In other words, a witch weighs the same as a duck.

    The Holy Grail: Scene 5

    And, for more on ergot:

    http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm

    I believed it.
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Quack!

    Hey, I like your new siggy, SB.. I've been zoning out on it for about 5 minutes now.

    ::twitch::

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon
    Quack!

    Hey, I like your new siggy, SB.. I've been zoning out on it for about 5 minutes now.

    ::twitch::
    Comforting, huh?
    "He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Oh absolutely..

    The colors, the colors.. Duuuude.

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    Default Re: Salem Witch Trials

    Ooooh, yeah...

    And the ergot is just starting to kick in, too, I'm liking this!
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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