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Thread: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    at long last, Consumer Reports has done an analysis of the actual 'cost of ownership' of several different hybrid vehicles versus the equivalent gas engine model of the same vehicle. Some of the results were surprising ...

    2006 Ford Escape -
    - purchase price premium $ 6,300
    - extra sales tax $ 500
    - extra insurance cost $ 1,000
    - extra maintenance cost $ 100
    - extra depreciation cost $ 4,800
    - extra financing cost $ 900
    -------------
    - total extra costs $ 13,600
    --- less tax credit * - $ 1,950
    --- less fuel savings # - $ 3,300
    =======
    Total 5 year extra cost $ 8,350

    2006 Honda Accord -
    - purchase price premium $ 5,700
    - extra sales tax $ 400
    - extra insurance cost $ 650
    - extra maintenance cost $ - 200
    - extra depreciation cost $ 4,300
    - extra financing cost $ 800
    -------------
    - total extra costs $ 11,650
    --- less tax credit * - $ 650
    --- less fuel savings # - $ 700
    =======
    Total 5 year extra cost $ 10,250

    2006 Honda Civic -
    - purchase price premium $ 4,000
    - extra sales tax $ 300
    - extra insurance cost $ - 300
    - extra maintenance cost $ 100
    - extra depreciation cost $ 2,900
    - extra financing cost $ 500
    -------------
    - total extra costs $ 7,500
    --- less tax credit * - $ 2,100
    --- less fuel savings # - $ 1,700
    =======
    Total 5 year extra cost $ 3,700

    2006 Lexus RX -
    - purchase price premium $ 8,800
    - extra sales tax $ 700
    - extra insurance cost $ 500
    - extra maintenance cost $ 100
    - extra depreciation cost $ 6,300
    - extra financing cost $ 1,200
    -------------
    - total extra costs $ 17,600
    --- less tax credit * - $ 2,250
    --- less fuel savings # - $ 2,300
    =======
    Total 5 year extra cost $ 13,100

    2006 Toyota Highlander -
    - purchase price premium $ 7,200
    - extra sales tax $ 600
    - extra insurance cost $ 400
    - extra maintenance cost $ 0
    - extra depreciation cost $ 6,000
    - extra financing cost $ 2,700
    -------------
    - total extra costs $ 16,900
    --- less tax credit * - $ 2,200
    --- less fuel savings # - $ 1,400
    =======
    Total 5 year extra cost $ 13,300

    2006 Toyota Prius/Corolla -
    - purchase price premium $ 5,700
    - extra sales tax $ 400
    - extra insurance cost $ 300
    - extra maintenance cost $ 300
    - extra depreciation cost $ 3,200
    - extra financing cost $ 800
    -------------
    - total extra costs $ 10,700
    --- less tax credit * - $ 3,150
    --- less fuel savings # - $ 2,300
    =======
    Total 5 year extra cost $ 5,250

    Copyright Consumer Reports magazine April 2006 issue

    * the hybrid tax credit is based on estimates from the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy as official IRS formulas/tax credit amounts have yet to be released.

    * the hybrid tax credit, under current US law, only applies to the first 60,000 total hybrid vehicles sold in the US by each manufacturer. Thus when Honda sells a total of 60,000 hybrid civics plus hybrid accords in the same model year, no tax credit will be granted on additional hybrid civics or accords sold in the same year.

    * particular states may also offer additional tax credits which are not included in this number

    # fuel savings estimates are based on actual Consumer Reports test results of actual vehicle mileage.

    # fuel savings are based on average current prices and gasoline taxes, and projected future gasoline price increases over 5 years

    # fuel savings do not take into account future alternate methods of road tax collection which could impact hybrid vehicles

    Insurance cost and Depreciation cost projections (= insurance loss value if stolen or totalled) provided by Vincentric.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-18-2006 at 10:53 AM.

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Not to dispute the basic conclusion but including the higher initial cost, then adding it back once again as additional depreciation is double counting. This is a rookie mistake. Furthermore since there have not been hybrids for as long as the interval CU is estimating, their guess on the resale value is indeed a total guess. Add back the eroneous depreciation and they are still bad investments in dollars and cents. Wanna do some good, buy a non-hybrid and donate the extra money to Greenpeace, the arbor Day foundation, or some such outfit.

  3. #3
    AudreyLeigh
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    I thought the point in buying Hybrids wasnt to save money - it was to save the air.... yea theyre more expensive in the end - I thought most people knew this but bought them for other reasons.

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by AudreyLeigh
    I thought the point in buying Hybrids wasnt to save money - it was to save the air.... yea theyre more expensive in the end - I thought most people knew this but bought them for other reasons.
    yeah, I think so too....nobody buys a Lexus hybrid to save money. There is also the coolness factor of an eco-friendly car.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    James Woolsey has his home set up as an "energy safe house." He has solar electricity and solar heating - as well as a hybrid car.

    James Woolsey is the former CIA directory under Bill Clinton.

    He must thing an oil shock event is likely to put that kind of expense into his home. He would also be the one to know, albeit he may be the president of the tinfoil hat club.

    Bet he was sitting pretty when New Orleans went under water - and how likely is the next hurricane season to disrupt oil and gas production in a few months?

    What I am saying is - there are more expenses to take into account with our oil addiction.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by AudreyLeigh
    I thought the point in buying Hybrids wasnt to save money - it was to save the air.... yea theyre more expensive in the end - I thought most people knew this but bought them for other reasons.
    I agree with Audrey...its a feel good thing rather than a sensible financial decision.

    Displacement on Demand achieves similar results at a lower cost. Diesel technology makes even more sense if our powers that be get their heads outta their asses some day.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    including the higher initial cost, then adding it back once again as additional depreciation is double counting. This is a rookie mistake
    Agreed that this doesn't affect the major point ... however Vincentric Corp, who was responsible for developing the insurance statistics and 'total write-off' values for these hybrid vehicles, certainly intends to charge insurance premiums and pay out 'total write-off' insurance checks based on the values in the CR tables. Thus it is arguable that no double counting is taking place in the scenario of a 'total write-off' accident, where the hybrid owner who indeed paid a higher initial purchase price for his vehicle will also receive a smaller insurance check when the hybrid vehicle is 'totalled'. Obviously, the actual resale pricing / trade-in values which develop on the used vehicle market 5 years from now is open to speculation.

    Personally, I found it interesting that the dollar value of gas savings over CR's projected 5 year period is roughly an exact offset to the dollar value of the US federal tax incentives ... meaning that, on the average, owning a hybrid vehicle simply shifts the fuel cost 'differential' from the vehicle owner to the US taxpayer.

    What's missing from CR's financial analysis versus some points raised about environmental impact is that there are no figures regarding the total amount of energy consumed / carbon footprint and environmental consequences when the original production plus the 5 year operation of hybrid vehicles versus standard vehicles are compared. Additional hybrid vehicle components such as electric motors, batteries etc. certainly add new factors to the production side of the equation in terms of energy and environment.

    Total agreement here on diesel engine efficiency. However, the 'clean diesel' engine technology which has been advanced in Europe has not made very deep inroads into the USA ... presumeably because gov't has 'tipped it's hand' that it is willing to subsidize hybrids not diesels, as well as because of sulfur content issues in American diesel fuel vs. EPA passenger vehicle emission standards which has kept the majority of already existing small diesel engine designs from being imported into the USA (with Volkswagen being the only major importer).

    I have no problem whatsoever for hybrid vehicle buyers to voluntarily spend their own money to 'feel good' about the environment (regardless of the facts regarding how much environmental benefits actually are or are not being achieved by hybrid vehicles). However, I do have significant problems when the US gov't decides to spend my tax money based only on the same 'feel good' analysis - and I have even more problems when that tax money is being primarily spent to subsidize foreign companies vehicles being manufactured offshore.
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-20-2006 at 04:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Hybrids are probably the way of the future, they get better milage and as fuel gets more expensive that is more important. The "surcharge" will get less as volume increases. We have seen that already to some degree.

    The hybrid that we have not seen but seems to be the most obviuos and best combination is the diesel hybrid. I have a small Kubota tractor with a 21 HP engine, doing normal cutting the grass type work it burns a little lass that a half a gallon an hour, I ave every confidence that it's engine coupled to a generator put in a VW bug size hybrid could easily make 70 MPH on the freeway, do the math and you are talking around 150 MPG. As far as the batteries go I think tried and true lead acid batteries still offer a lot. Yes they are kind of big and kind of heavy and don't provide the AMP per cubic inch or pound that the newest litium ion batteries do but It is proven technology that properly mauntained can last almost indefinetley, they don't have a fixed/limited number of charge cylcles like a LI-ION NiMHD battery does. The US Navy had diesel electric submarines for better than 50 years and many foreign navies still have them, modern diesel electric subs are some of the quietest and hardest to detect subs out there. The batteries have improved drastically in the last 30 years and are still the battery under the hood of every "normal" car in the world

    Also being a hybrid you don't need the huge bank of batteries the first 70's & 80's era "electric" cars had used lead acid batteries. You just need enough battery power to provide "tempoary storage" enough to allow for the increased current draw needed for acceleration that is more than the generator provides. Normal highway cruising speed the generator provides all the power required.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    ^^^ today SOME hybrid cars are focused on maximizing gas mileage, which might be a good candidate for your 21hp diesel engine. However, as the CR stats show and was pointed out in the magazine itself, because of the 60000 vehicle per manufacturer per year limit on the tax credit, hybrid vehicle makers are actually just as interested in adding an extra 50hp of electric motor acceleration on top of a 200hp gasoline engine to improve the performance of larger 'upscale' vehicles i.e hybrid SUV's.

    The angle that would actually save the most fossil fuels is the inclusion of more battery storage capacity with a home 120v powered battery charger, which would allow the vehicle to travel for 10-20 miles on its battery capacity without need for the gas/diesel engine. However, this approach has run afoul of both political and environmental problems in the form of bypassing state 'road tax' - as well as the distinct possibility that coal/oil/gas fired electricity generation needed to charge the batteries from a home outlet may actually produce more pollution and burn more fuel than the non-hybrid version of the vehicle.

    I also agree on your assessment of lead-acid batteries. However, this also runs afoul of political and environmental issues because it would basically multiply lead mining, lead processing, and dead battery lead plate disposal issues/costs by at least a factor of 20 over standard vehicles. Plus the gas mileage of a land vehicle is directly proportional to vehicle weight, a problem not faced by floating vessels !

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    Veteran Member TarynJolie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    there are more expenses to take into account with our oil addiction.
    Good point.


    We plan to buy a hybrid this next year. Probably a Civic model.

    And I really want to go solar at home , especially since we will be living in sunny New Mexico as of the middle of May. It is something that will have to be done slowly because of high start up cost . We are going to start out with solar hot water and go from there. I hope to be electric company free in 10 years.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    'extra depreciation cost' LOL otherwise known as 'the finger on the scale'

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by TarynJolie
    Good point.


    We plan to buy a hybrid this next year. Probably a Civic model.

    And I really want to go solar at home , especially since we will be living in sunny New Mexico as of the middle of May. It is something that will have to be done slowly because of high start up cost . We are going to start out with solar hot water and go from there. I hope to be electric company free in 10 years.

    I subscribe to Architectural Digest and they had a story about Daryl Hannah's home. It is "off the grid." Pretty cool.

    The former director of CIA, Woolsey, also has a hybrid and an "energy safe house."

    With that CIA guy gearing up to get off the net - kinda makes ya wonder what he actually knows....

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    From a purely financial standpoint, the costs of setting up a solar cell / battery / inverter / windmill array to provide the 10kW capacity needed by an average house is so expensive that one needs Daryl Hannah's income level to afford installing one. BTW the #1 sales market for this sort of equipment is reputedly California pot farmers, who are willing to pay any price to remove legal reasons for 'strangers' to enter their property (i.e. power / phone company trucks - which can be used as cover by the DEA).

    example - to produce 10kW to run a refrigerator + freezer + air conditioner + small appliances + lights you would only need 5 of the following systems at $21,000 each - providing you live in an area where the sun shines most of the time !



    Of course, if you DO live in the state of California you can 'stick' your fellow state taxpayers with about $20,000 worth of the $105,000 total cost in the form of FTB tax credits and grant money.

    Also, even if it was possible to find solar electric equipment at half of this price, i.e. $40,000 after the tax credit and grant are applied, borrowing the $40k at 6% interest corresponds to a monthly 'electric' bill of over $200 ! Of course, if you 'wrap up' the purchase as part of a second mortgage home improvement, you can get your fellow taxpayers to 'eat' $75 per month of that $200 bill in the form of a mortgage interest tax deduction.
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-22-2006 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #14
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    It's not all dollars and cents, although by cutting energy bills, you can save some decent coin.

    Some people are concerned about the rising levels of carbon dioxide. They're concerned that we will run out of fossil fuels while we are still fuel-dependent. They're concerned that we're taking what should be last-ditch measures (carving into preserved land) to meet normal demand. They're concerned generally about the misuse and badly inefficient use of resources on this planet.

    Is that worth some extra bucks to some people to try to help cure or alleviate the problems? I rather imagine so.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Mel, look into the grid connected system, much cheaper.

    The real poblem is keeping them clean and getting max efficiency.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Is that worth some extra bucks to some people to try to help cure or alleviate the problems? I rather imagine so.
    To some people, yes ... but to the vast majority of people on a global basis, not a chance. I could obviously cite the astronomical growth of automobile manufacture and use in China, which is increasing the use of fossil fuels at a much faster rate than the marginal fuel savings of hybrid vehicles can offset. And you won't have to look as far away as China either, as Malcolm Bricklin gas gotten approval to start importing Chinese made cars into North America next year with a new selling price in the $6000 ballpark !



    Americans seem to lose sight of the fact that spending large amounts of tax money to achieve reduced emissions within US borders doesn't do anything to reduce the emissions from other countries carried back into the US by the prevailing wind.


    The real poblem is keeping them clean and getting max efficiency.
    No offense intended, but at $5000+ per kilowatt, solar cells have a major problem with initial cost - i.e. a 14+ year payback versus commercial power at 10 cents/kWh, plus the need to store/buy electricity during the 'dark' half of every day.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    at any rate, a significant dollar portion of fuel savings achieved by hybrid vehicles is the avoidance of paying state 'road tax' ... that invisible tax which typically adds 25-50 cents to the price of every gallon of gasoline sold in the state. Ever since hybrid vehicles stopped being a publicity stunt and started becoming a measureable segment of cars currently on the road, state lawmakers and tax officials have been pondering the 'road tax' issue. Oregon is now preparing to test a new proposal which would (eventually) drop the per-gallon 'road tax' on gasoline and diesel fuel, would equip every car registered in the state with a GPS system, would allow state run computers to track the total miles driven by every car, and would send each car owner a bill proportional to the actual miles they drove the previous year (presumeably with some vehicle size/weight factor included). A GPS system would solve the 'road tax' problem for future electric / hydrogen / fuel cell vehicles as well, by making a direct link between miles driven and taxes charged independent of the type and amount of fuel used by the vehicle.



    One valuable side effect of the GPS road tax system is that a much higher tax rate can be charged for vehicles using major roads during 'rush hour', thus proportioning the cost of building / maintaining major roads more accurately to those people who create those costs. Under the current 'road tax' system, farmers/ranchers using country roads and suburban commuters both pay essentially the same tax rate.

    Another 'valuable' side effect of the state GPS program would be that the database could be searched for info such as which vehicles were within a one block radius of the scene of a crime committed at such and such a time.

    However, another 'worrysome' side effect would be that, if hacked, leaked, or released under Freedom Of Information filings, the same data could be used, for example, by a wife in a divorce case to illustrate how many times her hubby visited a strip club !

  18. #18
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    thus proportioning the cost of building / maintaining major roads more accurately to those people who create those costs.
    Are they going to factor in vehicle weight? A heavier guzzler tears up the road more than a lighter fuel-efficient car. That's not economics or politics, that's physics.

    I can see all sorts of balances and counterbalances with weight, fuel efficiency, emissions (I realize that pollution itself doesn't cause road damage, but I'm making a leap of faith that most people would like to have less pollution in the air), frequency of use, driving habits, driving times, road selection, and so on. Coming up with a valid solution might not be impossible, but it's sure daunting.

    On other fronts, Honda says it'll start production in the next three or four years of a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. There are already some fuel cell vehicles in commercial and private use in California. Honda hopes to market the vehicle with a home fueling station that will make the hydrogen fuel from the natural gas supplied for home heating. If that turns out to be viable, and who knows, it'll be interesting to see how government turns to recoup the losses at the gas pump. You'd see a jump in taxes on natural gas supplies, I bet.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Hopefully we will see an uprising over taxes. People get pissed off when they go and do the right thing and try to save money - then the government rewards (punishes) them for it with higher taxes.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Hopefully we will see an uprising over taxes. People get pissed off when they go and do the right thing and try to save money - then the government rewards (punishes) them for it with higher taxes.
    Not to get political, but people who are 'doing the right thing' (which I take to mean buying hybrid vehicles) are ALREADY 'rewarding' all other taxpayers with higher taxes. This takes place directly via the hybrid vehicle tax credit claimed by hybrid buyers (which is paid for by higher than necessary taxes on people who didn't buy hybrid vehicles), and is taking place indirectly via paying a disproportionately low 'road tax' since the electric portion of their vehicle's energy is not taxed (i.e. charging hybrid batteries overnight from the grid). Thus, arguably, hybrid vehicle owners are not being punished, they are merely having the loophole closed which currently enables them to partially avoid their fair share of 'road tax'.

    The GPS system currently under testing would theoretically do a much more accurate job of linking the costs of road construction/maintenance created by a particular driver and vehicle type with the amount of 'road tax' collected than the current system does - not only would it tax by actual miles driven vs gasoline purchased, but it would also be able to charge different tax rates based on where and when the vehicle is driven. If the Oregon model follows some european developments, different roads will have different tax rates, and the tax rate for each road will also change with the time of day (i.e. driving on a rush hour thoroughfares carry a tax rate which is 10 times as high as a country road at night). Also, if some european developments are followed, each particular model of car and truck will have a 'multiplier' which relates to the vehicle's weight / size / resulting wear and tear rate on roads / bridges. Some european developments also factor in the emission rate of different vehicles.

    IMHO the GPS system of 'road tax' collection makes very good sense from a financial standpoint since it would more accurately assess the costs involved in road construction / maintenance to those who actually create those costs. If this results in hybrid vehicle owners losing their current 'road tax' loophole, then so be it. IMHO there is something inhererently incorrect about any economic decision where the fundamental cost factors are distorted by tax incentives, gov't subsidies, 'stealth' cost shifting from one particular group to another group etc. However, with most if not all 'politically correct' products/technologies (examples hybrid vehicles, windmill farms, ethanol fuel) , were it not for the tax incentives, gov't subsidies and 'steath' cost shifting, these products/technologies would not be economically viable on their own.

    Please understand that I am trying to make an economic point here ... that people deserve to know the total cost accounting and total end result of a particular product / technology up front, rather than being spoon fed positive aspects with negative aspects being kept under wraps. To achieve this sort of accuracy where hybrid vehicles are concerned, the GPS 'road tax' is a step in the right direction. Other aspects, such as a proportional 'waste disposal fee' on dead hybrid vehicle batteries, or state tax credits for hybrid vehicles which are much larger than the federal tax credit (which involves huge 'stealth' cost shifting onto non-hybrid vehicle owners in some states via state income tax rates) will take a while longer. Of course it is doubtful that state politicians could have passed a $4000 state tax credit for hybrid vehicles if they also stated that doing so would effectively create an additional $40 bill in state income tax for 99% of state residents who did not buy hybrid vehicles in order to finance the 1% who did buy hybrid vehicles ...
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-26-2006 at 10:30 AM.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    The tax credit is paid for by China now and Gen Y in the future. I doubt anyone getting a tax credit is coming out on top when it comes to taxes.

    GPS to track our butts all around the country is to 1984 for me. Michigan taxes registration by vehicle weight and I don't see a problem with that.

    When the economy was flush with good jobs and good money, no one was trying to figure out if Albert down the street needed to pay $1.25 more in taxes than Ted next door because he drove an extra mile that day.

    All this is a symptom of a greater problem no one is willing to face until the equity in our homes and buildings (as well as future earnings are allocated to debt-for-today) is finally exhausted.

    Add to that our economy is based on throw-away consumption and frivilous purchases. This shit is catching up to us right quick.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Deo, while I won't dispute your general conclusions, they clearly appear to be headed more towards the political than the economic - which in the absence of a specific financial point puts them across the 'dotted line' for Dollar Den discussion. Now if you want to tie your point in to some specific economic fact a la it then becomes an economic discussion with political overtones rather than a strictly political opinion ...

    I would also argue that, from an economic standpoint, the hybrid vehicle tax credits (state and federal) are being financed by the 'stealth' transfer of wealth from non-hybrid vehicle buyers to hybrid vehicle buyers. Any sideways observations i.e. the actual financing of the federal budget deficit (to which the hybrid tax credit contributes) being done via China's purchases of US T-Bonds does not negate the fact that the interest payments on those T-Bonds are ultimately paid for by taxes on hybrid vehicle owners and non-hybrid vehicle owners alike. Where a state hybrid vehicle tax credit is concerned, the state credit is probably being funded by some big hedge fund or retirement plan purchasing state bonds, however the interest payments on those state bonds are also ultimately paid for by state taxes on non-hybrid vehicle owners and hybrid vehicle owners alike.

  23. #23
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    From a political or economic standpoint, it wouldn't bother me to do away with a tax break on hybrids. If you're going to do the right thing - reduce gas consumption, reduce pollution output - you should should it because it's the right thing. And if you're using less gass, it'll cost less anyway.

    As far as taxing based on battery disposal, is that based on environmental concerns? If so, how about taxing more on vehicles that are tougher on the environment every day, or taxing a vehicle because it has more mass than other vehicles and hence provide more problems for disposal? That would be a tough road to head down.

    I agree with Deogl that we're way too obsessed with counting pennies based on issues that weren't issues in the past. And then when you do get to counting those pennies, you have about 1,067 political interests promoting their version of "fair" to cook the books their way.

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    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    As far as taxing based on battery disposal, is that based on environmental concerns?
    First I mentioned a 'battery disposal fee' not a tax. Yes it is based on the fact that, so far at least, all batteries contain heavy metals (lead, cadmium, nickel etc.) which are environmentally unfriendly to manufacture, and even more environmentally unfriendly to 'properly' dispose of. A gas engine car typically has a single lead battery which lasts 5 years - hybrid vehicles have the equivalent of 10-20 batteries which also last 5 years. Even if the environmentally unfriendly aspects of battery manufacture are outsourced, there is still the issue that if/when hybrid vehicles ever claim 5-10% of the US vehicle market the total volume of US battery waste disposal will double, overwhelming the capacity of existing disposal facilities. Constructing / expanding waste disposal facilities in compliance with current EPA regs to handle twice as much battery waste will be tremendously expensive, and financing such expansion will again raise the issue of who pays out the billions ...

    As to worrying about 'fair' taxation, gov't subsidies etc. now, whereas these were never a worry in the past, again I don't want to get overly political. Some people DID worry about such things in the past, but were typically silenced by the 'political correctness' voice of mainstream media. Some people DID worry about the extra taxes and extra spending, but were typically silenced by federal and state gov't's ability to borrow money to finance the extra spending instead of enacting immediate tax increases, by the near total lack of accurate documentation regarding the actual costs of such subsidies and tax credits to the average taxpayer, and by the fact that a few extra dollars in tax was not going to change anyone's lifestyle. However, as with SSI, medicare, medicaid etc. it is now very difficult to avoid acknowledging that gov't subsidy programs which start out with a comparatively small cost can rapidly balloon to become huge tax burdens as the percentage of people 'paying' for the subsidy declines and the percentage of people 'benefitting' from the subsidy increases. With hybrid vehicles comprising a mere 0.1% of US vehicles at the moment, the subsidy cost is still 'small'. However, if / when hybrid vehicles comprise 5-10% of US vehicles, the subsidy cost will be major.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-27-2006 at 04:48 AM.

  25. #25
    Jay Zeno
    Guest

    Default Re: Finally, some 'credible numbers' on Hybrid Vehicles

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    First I mentioned a 'battery disposal fee' not a tax.... hybrid vehicles have the equivalent of 10-20 batteries which also last 5 years.
    From MSNBC, Herb Weisbaum:

    These NiMH batteries generally come with a standard warranty of 8 years or 80,000 miles. In California, if a new hybrid qualifies as an Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle, the state requires the warranty on that battery pack to be 10 years or 150,000 miles. “The number of failures has been really, really low,” says American Honda’s Juan Avilla. “We expect them to last the life of the vehicle.”

    Toyota tells me that some of the original Prius models now have battery packs that have gone more than 300,000 miles.

    BusinessWeek magainze reports that when the U.S. Department of Energy investigated hybrid batteries, it stopped its tests 'when the capacity remained almost like new — after 160,000 miles.'


    Battery disposal not a tax but a fee? How about a fee for oversize car dispoal? A fee for anticipated fuel leakage for cars that use more gas and oil? Sounds like a tax to me, especially if you're paying for battery disposal that is anticipated and might not occur within the time covered by the "fee."

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