Confederate Flags

[TarynJolie]

I saw this cartoon today and it got me thinking and curious to know what other people think about the Confederate Flag.

What does it mean to you ? What does it stand for in these modern times and does that differ from what it stood for in the past ?

[Emily]

I see it as a symbol of hatred.

[Blade]

What does the Confederate flag mean to me......
It's a symbol of rebellion, a symbol of pride, and the logo for my tongue in cheek racing team( White Trash Racing,lol) and it's the logo for my clothing line - Redneck Punk
I've never associated it with hate, seeing as it was one of the first flags in our nation...maybe I'm strange but the Confederate flag and the American flag both stand out as symbols of hope,pride and history

[Susan Wayward]

^^ It's just that it represents a particular nasty part of history. I'm all about the Southern pride and am fond of my heritage--the music and food are better down there--but by god, that flag represented a group of people who wanted to own another group of people, and there's just no way to make that inoffensive.

Now, Blade, I have no doubt that you lack a racist bone in your body, but be aware that for a lot of people, that flag instantly brands its bearers as big honking racist rednecks who should have fun with that "state's rights" argument in downtown Detroit.

[Djoser]

Being from the north--Detroit actually--I never had much opinion about the flag, and I mostly saw it in military history books.

But get this, when I was a senior in high school in Maine, my mom told her employers to shove it, in considerably nicer but firm language, and we had a big party for her. To mark the house for guests I painted a rebel flag--as in rebel, which she surely was in that situation.

I liked the flag I had painted, and hung it in my dorm room on the south side of Chicago. One of my good friends, a guy who turned me onto the best funk out there, was a black guy I worked with.

Boy did he hate that flag...

I tried to explain it had nothing to do with slavery or even blacks in my mind whatsoever, and he didn't ever really get it, and I can't say that I blame him. I can't remember if I took it down then or not, but I've hung it less since then--right now it's carefully saved in one of the boxes in storage.

[cinammonkisses]

Seeing that flad makes me very uncomfortable. There is a girl at my club who has a confederate outfit on that she wears on the weekend. I can spot her from a mile away, but I avoid her at all costs when she wears it. I can't help but roll my eyes.

Most confederate flag men who come to my club leave the stage when I get up there, or give disgusted looks at me when I walk the room. I see this...

[kinda_normal_guy]

Just so we don't start with the wrong history lesson, the Civil War was not initially about ending slavery and its amazing to me how we have almost come full circle on what the Civil War was really started over.

The Civil War started and was fought move over states rigths than slavery. Lincoln only made the war about slavery as a political move when the war was going badly and France was about to enter on the side of the Confederacy.

Today (maybe the last 20 years) we have seen a big move in the same direction, towards states rights and away from a big federal government (its not working but thats another issue). More and more people think the federal government is out of touch with their issues and want the states and local governemnt to have more of a say. Almost exactly the same issues that started the Civil War.

As for the flag, if you don't like it, don't ever go to a NASCAR race, I'd never seen so many Confererate flags in my life

[soybeangirl]

I live right on the Tennessee/Georgia Line. Literally. I see this flag all the time and I honestly don't even give it a second thought. In the South this flag has very different meanings. Lots of southern people are VERY and perhaps TOO proud of where they are from. They take pride in their laidback lifestyle and funny accent and fattening foods. This flag, to them, is representative of being southern and nothing more. There are also those who take the flag and it's meaning to a much more hateful level like racism.

I personally don't identify with the flag at all.

[former_LV_dancer]

I smell poo.......this topic is WAY too touchy.....we've been here before.

Blade, White Trash Racing....like it. Don't forget the image of Miss Britney Spears on a racecar barefoot eating a big bowl of mac-n-cheese with her fingers......

[WiseGuy_TX]

I'm with Blade, Djoser and KN_Guy. The flag, back in its day, also represented many things other than slavery. Pick up a book or google it and read about it. It's pathetic that certian groups or certian people, today, want to use it only as a symbol of racism/hatred. Whereas, some people like Blade dont use it that way.

There are many flags in the world that represent the rights and beliefs of a people. There are people in the world that believe the American flag is a symbol of evil. Perhaps they are not understanding all it represents either.

[leilanicandy]

The Cofederate Flag is a symbol of Hatred! The only reason why the south got that flag. Was because they did not want to agree with the goverment, when it came to freeing those slaves. Because they felt black me was not equal to them and that they where those white people property! I had pay attention in US history! The confederate flag was to respesent thier new country and thier beliefs of keeping black inslaves. Nobody stupids! But what gose around comes around! Karma is a real bitch!

[lunchbox]

It's context to me.

Flying at Stone Mountain = not bad.
As a tattoo next to a swastika = bad.
Hanging outside of a KA fraternity house = not bad.
Being carried by a color guard in white hoods = bad.
etc. etc. etc....

[Rhiannon]

This is heading to Member Boards, because 1) It is definitely Poo-ish, and 2) A discussion about the Confederate Flag already took place in a thread about the Dukes Of Hazzard. Link is below, so you'll get an idea of how well it went over.

[Prester_John]

Just so we don't start with the wrong history lesson, the Civil War was not initially about ending slavery and its amazing to me how we have almost come full circle on what the Civil War was really started over.

The Civil War started and was fought move over states rigths than slavery. Lincoln only made the war about slavery as a political move when the war was going badly and France was about to enter on the side of the Confederacy.

Today (maybe the last 20 years) we have seen a big move in the same direction, towards states rights and away from a big federal government (its not working but thats another issue). More and more people think the federal government is out of touch with their issues and want the states and local governemnt to have more of a say. Almost exactly the same issues that started the Civil War.

As for the flag, if you don't like it, don't ever go to a NASCAR race, I'd never seen so many Confererate flags in my life

You are utterly wrong. The paramount issue that caused the Civil War was slavery. Abraham Lincoln had supported the ending of slavery from his early days as a Congressman. His election to a party and a platform that was negative to slavery was the final impetus for South Carolina to secede in December 1860, and the other slave holding states followed suit.

If one doesn’t believe this, all one needs to do is read the Secession Ordinances of both Georgia and South Carolina. Both specifically mention the preservation of slavery.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoun...ion_causes.htm.

In the above link is the Official Statement put forth by South Carolina. In it it states

..."The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. "

It was written by C .C. Memminger, who would go on to be the Secretary of the Treasury for the Confederacy.

The issue of States Rights would never have come to a head if the issue of slavery was not paramount. The South and North had many differences, - tariff issues, manufacturer vs. agrarian society etc, but NOTHING effected the South in terms of socio-economics as the abolition of slavery. Slavery was the foundation of their economic life and the cornerstone of their society.

That isn’t to say the majority of the North did not hold similar views of Race as the South. It did, for the most part. However, the North wasn’t dependent on slavery, as the South was. That’s why even though relatively few Southerners actually owned slaves, most were willing to fight for it. Relatively few Northern soldiers fought to free the slaves in the beginning. They fought to preserve the Union. However, after the Emancipation Proclamation and white Union soldiers fought along side USCT soldiers, that attitude changed in many.

In 1832 South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification, which stated that it would not collect the high tariffs on the goods that Congress had imposed (which was advantageous to the manufacturers of the North, and disadvantageous to the plantation owners of the South), and threatened to secede. President Andrew Jackson, a Southerner himself, sent Federal troops to South Carolina to suppress this. While the rest of the South states wholly supported the rebellion against the tariffs, it was nowhere near enough to get the as a group into open rebellion period.

Although States Rights were a serious and main issue of the Civil War, it would NOT have forced war if it wasn’t intertwined with Slavery. To say it was one and not the other is an incomplete statement. The Civil War would not have happened if there were no issues due to slavery.

[doc-catfish]

It's context to me.

Flying at Stone Mountain = not bad.
As a tattoo next to a swastika = bad.
Hanging outside of a KA fraternity house = not bad.
Being carried by a color guard in white hoods = bad.
etc. etc. etc....

Context is everything. Too many people see a controversial symbol like the Confederate Flag and just knee jerkedly react to it, as if their connotation of what the symbol means is the only true or correct one.

The Swastika is another symbol that people automatically associate with hatred due to its history with Nazi Germany, but a lot of people forget that it has also been used as a positve symbol in many parts of the world for reasons not remotely related to the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

I wonder how many people today would look at a "left-facing" swastika (the Nazi swastika faces right) and just instantly assume the worst.

The fact is that you really can't understand the intent of the person who uses a symbol that has become mired in controversy unless you ask them what their intent is. Its only truly offensive if they're indeed trying to offend you.

[TarynJolie]

Lots of interesting responces. Thanks to those of you who responded !

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

Take care everybody and maybe I'll see you elsewhere on the net someday

Ciao

[Emily]

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

ironic statement

in any case, bye!

[Deni]

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

It's really not that hard to understand...the topic is a poo-ish topic and some people can't seem to control themselves when these kinds of threads pop up...exactly why Poo was shut down in the first place.

Rhi doesn't want to become the Lounge/Flow-over Poo moderator. She has to keep it clean if it's in the lounge. It's just easier to throw it to the member boards where there are no moderators and make it serve as an "enter at your own risk" kind of thread.

[Jay Zeno]

The Confederate flag is to most African Americans what the swastika is to most Jews. It's a symbol of persecution and institutional degradation. There's just no getting around that.

Fly a Nazi symbol and say, "Oh, I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm celebrating Volkswagens and trains running on time and engineering and ethnic pride in the German culture."

Uh, yeah. It's the same with Confederate flags.


----------------------------


If you get mortally offended because a posting gets moved from one forum to another, may as well take off now. It's probably going to happen to you sooner or later. Apologies in advance.

[Prester_John]

Lots of interesting responces. Thanks to those of you who responded !

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

Take care everybody and maybe I'll see you elsewhere on the net someday

Ciao

I think think we can all use this at the moment...

[Rhiannon]

Lots of interesting responces. Thanks to those of you who responded !

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

Take care everybody and maybe I'll see you elsewhere on the net someday

Ciao

It's no secret that POO is NOT suitable for the Lounge. All topics of that sort are moved here to Member Boards because the majority of members DO NOT want to see it in the Lounge.

The Lounge is for light topics. People go there to relax, not debate.

That's the way things are. It's been explained enough. If you feel that you must leave, so be it. The rules aren't changing.

[Rhiannon]

I think think we can all use this at the moment...

PJ.. That is CLASSIC. Keep that handy, we could use it on many occasions around here.

[AlluringAva]

I look at it two ways. As a Civil War buff, the Confederate flag was a historical symbol which yes, did stand for pro-slavery, but let's face it...The US flag was flying long before that, and it too, legitimized slavery, not to mention the Constitution, which stated that blacks were 3/5 of what a white man was.

I also don't look at Confederate monuments or schools named after Confederate generals like Nathan B Forrest as offensive, because again, while you can say these people stood for slavery, so did George Washington.


Historically the KKK has used that flag as it does now as white supremacy. But didn't the US flag stand for that too, when the US enacted the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, and in the future years, told my ancestors who came from Japan that they could not be citizens of this country, but only 'aliens?' And later interned Japanese AMERICANS them during World War II out of paranoia that they might be 'spying' for Japan? Not to mention Plessy vs. Ferguson which legitimized segregation?

I find very little offensive about this flag, because it's a flag that's part of Civil War history and this nation's history of a war that cost more lives than all other wars the US fought.

[dolliest]

to me, far more than hatred, that flag represents treason and oath breakers.

[SabrinaSweet]

Fly a Nazi symbol and say, "Oh, I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm celebrating Volkswagens and trains running on time and engineering and ethnic pride in the German culture."

Uh, yeah. It's the same with Confederate flags.

I agree.

To me wearing or flying a Confederate flag is a signal that that person agrees with slavery and all that goes along with it. They might as well be wearing a white hood a robe . Use of that flag just screams "White Power" . It's very distasteful.