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Thread: follow-up to duke rape case

  1. #26
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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    It's interesting to see many news stories use the race slant on this incident. After taking pause on the event and the evidence abounding on the case (good summaries with links to details on www.deadspin.com and Alas, a blog http://www.amptoons.com/blog/), I think it would be more responsible for the press (and bloggers) to look at this from three angles:

    1) A group of young men from a university catering to the highly entitled puffing up thier own sense of self worth by imposing thier will over obviously economically distressed young woman in an extreme sick ritual. The victim has been quoted as being a single mother (2 kids) student at a neigboring public college who publicly stated that stripping is something she's doing in the interim to get where she wants to be. This is probably the second most relevant way of looking at this. The offenders are privileged young men who have been given everything in life to them because of thier parents' position in society and the boys' ability to play a sport which has become a symbol (or ritual) of the economically elite. Today, moreso than golf, lacrosse is a sport of the elite. It's an interesting issue, but entitled youth often develop serious self esteem issues because they don't understand how they've gotten what they have.

    2) Student atheletes getting preferential treatment. Duke seems to be doing a pretty good job of handling this issue by suspending the team play and accepting the resignation of the coach. Others may want the University to be more aggressive, but IMO, they have done a good job. Remember, Duke lacrosse has a strong following from the alumni supporters - many of which are very influential in business and academia. Unfortunately due to the nature of the play of the game, lacrosse is a sport which attracts players who are constantly pushing the limits of what is acceptable.

    3) Racism. Apparently there were some yelling of racial epithets heard by people who were close to the house at the time of the incident. While it's always horrible to hear this, IMO it is not a primary issues would be better for the black community to focus on my first point.

    As for the single black player not coming forward? Hey, I would hope that my if my son was not one of the three accused rapists and knew something I wish he would come forward regardless of the color of his skin. There are 47 players on the Duke lacrosse team, 46 of which were white. The only reason the black player is being treated any differently than the white players is because only the 46 white players were asked in the search warrant to give DNA samples. There is no reason for him to come forward any more than any of the other players.

    By the way, there is a big class divide amongst African Americans as well as amongst White Americans.


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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by fancygirl
    I want to know why the girl went back into the house (if that's what happened).
    Dancers of the club and party persuasion-- please continue to practice vigilance in your and your coworkers safety.
    Fancygirl,

    Testimony used to obtain the warrants says she went back into the house to retrieve a shoe. Apparently she never got the shoe.

    Also of note, the local newspaper quotes her as saying it was her first time working a private party. Apparently she was trying to hide the nature of her work from her father, and so was her friend who worked the party with her.


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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    These types think they can just do anything and get away with it.... it makes me want to vomit. And their gfs just accept it and stay with them. No wonder stuff like this happens - they are being enabled by society. I don't even think there should be professional sports anymore. I have absolutely no respect for these people, I think they are gross.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    The lack of respect for another human being is not strictly the problem of the sports world. It's a problem inherent in our society and more ingrained than most of us are willing to admit. Don't care where it occurs, but I would like to see justice served more often in cases such as this - if the facts are as they appear. Nobody's status in society should allow crimes to go unpunished.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    AZCustomer: I would hope that if the lone black player was at the party and knew about what was happening, or found out about it later, he would come forward. This may not be an issue of race primarily, but perhaps he is not willing to jeopardize his place at the school however bad someone else of his race was treated--but then again, like I said before, he may not have been at the party. I can't imagine him being okay with being at a party where racial epithets were being yelled-- and I can't imagine him being invited if the other members were that racist.

    Also-- I knew about her supposedly going back in for the shoe(s), but I also read that a next door neighbor heard the party people placating the girls and asking them back inside. My question is: Why did she go back for the shoe when the party was that bad? But then you answered the question in that this was her first party. Any woman that works parties understands that clothes are not worth going back for if the party is extremely hostile--but then again, I work with security and make sure that my bouncers know that their prime focus in a hostile situation is to get me out of there with or without clothes.

    Party Dancers: Always understand that you need to take security, and it sucks but it is better to have a male bouncer rather than a female one so that the bouncer (in the case of a male bouncer) can focus on preventing you from being harassed/raped rather than having to focus on preventing both of you (in the case of a female bouncer) from being harassed/raped.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by fancygirl
    AZCustomer: I would hope that if the lone black player was at the party and knew about what was happening, or found out about it later, he would come forward. This may not be an issue of race primarily, but perhaps he is not willing to jeopardize his place at the school however bad someone else of his race was treated--but then again, like I said before, he may not have been at the party. I can't imagine him being okay with being at a party where racial epithets were being yelled-- and I can't imagine him being invited if the other members were that racist.
    By the way, please don't take this wrong, but I wish someday your reference to "someone else of his race" will be referring to the human race, not just white and black.

    The black player also comes from an elite private high school.
    Ignoring racism is a requirement in the world of elitism. Ignoring a lot of things is a requirement in the world of elitism.

    That being said, I'd be very suprised if he was at the party when the epithets were yelled and didn't leave - which means he doesn't have any relevant information for the authorities.

    I know there's a lot of people who detest atheletes, but here's an interesting tangent which may explain things:

    Today, retired baseball player Mark Grace was interviewed on the popular radio show, The Jim Rome Show. Jim Rome is a great sports radio host known for calling out players and giving his two cents.

    Jim asked Mark point blank if he had ever taken steriods and if he knew or saw any other players taking steroids.
    Mark gave a funny response about not taking steroids and he'd beat the crap out of either of his sons if they ever thought seriously about doing it. Mark also said he had seen players taking steroids and knew of others.

    Asked to name names, Mark said: "You know I don't want to be rat, because at the end of the day, a rat always ends up with a knife in him"

    So true, so true.


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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    I'm dealing with the realistic situation on race, but you're right-- ethnicity would have been the more correct word.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    I think it's the sickest thing in the world... these so-called famous, great sports figures calling girls "hos" because they strip, and then raping them. They are the rapists! They are the ones sticking their dicks into people who don't want them there, so doesn't that make them more of a "ho" than the victim?! They have no ability to reason... it's the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    In my experience, young men from elite backgrounds (and I'm speaking primarily of conservative, moneyed backgrounds) often try to turn racism into a joke in order to side-step what is actually going on. Amongst the wealthy and privately educated it is not unusual to come across groups of men which are largely white, with one or two "token" minorities. In this situation racist jokes often flow freely in an attempt to "disarm" any akward feelings by lampooning them in a very edgy manner (therefore making the jokester seem even cooler). This "faux" racism will often escalate as each member of the group tries to push the jokes over the edge and see who can be the most offensive (ie, funny). The assumption here is that since there is a minority present and he is not (outwardly) pissed off, and everyone is well educated enough to know what they're saying is taboo- they obviously wont be taken seriously.

    I personally cannot vouch for what an African/Asian/Hispanic/etc american is feeling in just such a situation, but considering the frequency with which I've observed this dynamic amongst my academic peers I have to assume that there are people willing to tolerate this behavior in order to be considered "cool" by their friends. It would not suprise me at all if the lone African American lacrosse player had witnessed all of this without saying a word if this sort of "acceptable" racism was just par for the course in his social milieu.

    If you need further evidence that this sort of over-the-top racism is becoming more acceptable just watch Fox's TV show "House". Omar Epps plays a Dr often referred to as "Sambo" by his superiors. Of course it's OK, because they're all genius DR's and really do "know better" *sarcasm*

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by bella du jour
    If you need further evidence that this sort of over-the-top racism is becoming more acceptable just watch Fox's TV show "House". Omar Epps plays a Dr often referred to as "Sambo" by his superiors. Of course it's OK, because they're all genius DR's and really do "know better" *sarcasm*

    Just my 2 cents.
    Great example. I didn't see the point of the exchanges between "House" and Omar Epps' character. I don't see why people in that social situation can't say they don't like the comments. I've been the bad guy and said it and I haven't regretted it. Either the group respected how I prefer to be treated as much as I respected how they want to be treated or they show a darker agenda and I can cut my losses. Most of the time, people who are hung up on race and gender have issues they don't want to address. They hide some unpleasant feelings about themselves in that safer place.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Wha....I've never heard him be called Sambo..and I watch that show all the time.







    Some Douchebag: "[Pimp C] 12:43 am: its true we got to stick together the black people on SW CK you is teh condoleeza of SW"


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    Veteran Member bella du jour's Avatar
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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Yea he's done it in at least one episode. My BF owns the first season on DVD. I cant remember which episode it is off-hand but I could probably find out for you. Besides if you watch the show all the time (and it's on pretty often in my house) you know how the title character talks to Omar Epps- it's part of House's schtick. In the episode that aired this week he refused to let Omar write on the white board in his office saying "it's called the white board for a reason". It's a funny show, but sometimes I think it pushes the limits of what should be considered "harmless humor" (namely the racist jokes). I guess that's a seperate discussion - I dont mean to hijack this thread!

    Bella

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    After learning further details about this I don't see how anyone could say that racism didn't play a part in the intentions and actions of the players on that night.

    Now about the Fox News clip mentioned in this discussion I have to say why is anyone surprised ? I mean this is FoxNews we are talking about here. It's the home base for all that is corrupt or should I say Conservative. Just look at the last two weeks of breaking news. An attempted sexual encounter with a minor by a top republican, the Prez being the source of the classified information leak. The list of corrupt, improper and illegal activity just goes on and on with those people. So is it really any wonder that Rush would say what he did about this case.

    It's no surprise to me . I would be surprised if it went the other way. Now that would be shocking !

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by rockie
    Nobody's status in society should allow crimes to go unpunished.
    Yeah, Riiiiiiiiiight.

    And Michael Jackson didn't molest children.
    And OJ Simpson didn't kill his wife...
    How about Robert Blake? Innocent?

    That would be a nice world if we were all treated as human equels, but alas, it isn't so .

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris
    Yeah, Riiiiiiiiiight.

    And Michael Jackson didn't molest children.
    And OJ Simpson didn't kill his wife...
    How about Robert Blake? Innocent?

    That would be a nice world if we were all treated as human equels, but alas, it isn't so .
    Thanks so much for mentioning this.. Like I've always said ladies and gents - it's money that makes the world turn on it's dirty, nasty little axis. Love has nothing to do with it.

    And a stripper is still a ho, according to Rush Limbaugh. * laughs * I seriously hope someone or something really sticks a thorn in his side for that one. What an idiot.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    more drama



    "No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman," said defense attorney Wade Smith.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    The defense is also stating that they have time/date stamped photos showing her as injured prior to the alleged rape and intoxicated.

    If this woman was lying - and I'm not saying she is - she has just set back stripper progress against stigmas and race relations.

    A part of me hopes she is lying because it would teach us all a lesson in jumping the gun and I hate, hate, hate the thought of a woman being gang-banged (involuntarily) and that these athletes are going to spend some time in prison. At the same time, DNA evidence does not rule out a rape. Nor do photos.


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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst
    If this woman was lying - and I'm not saying she is - she has just set back stripper progress against stigmas and race relations.
    That was the first thing I thought, too. It'll get that same old type of reaction:

    "Oh...well, it's no surprise she lied. She IS a stripper, after all...."

    They'll probably try to write it off now, but I guess I'll keep mum until I see how it turns out...

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Amethyst, I agree. It's possible that she is telling the truth, that somebody DID rape her, but it wasn't the players. And maybe she didn't know that, since we all know that Lacrosse players probably weren't the only ones that were there. She says that white guys did it, and that's really all she probably knows, since she doesnt know which white guy was a Lacrosse player or just some random guy (they always seemed to show up at college parties) or other student. We'll see.

    I pray she is NOT lying, b/c race relations are so terrible as it is, and I am very weary of one minority's indiscretion/fuck up reflecting on the whole race. Maybe in my lifetime, we will be granted the respect of being looked at as individuals, and not (put race/ethnicity here) individuals.


    I doubt it though. Guess I just gotta suck it up and keep on keepin' on...

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    One more thing...

    I am still suspicious about whether the guys knew something about what happened. I mean, otherwise, why did they put up the "wall of silence"? If none of them did it AND had nothing to do with it or had no knowledge of what happened, why not assist the police and avoid letting your university get all this bad press?

    Something isn't right...

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Considering that email which one of the players sent I am still inclined to believe the woman.

    The email said if the players enjoyed what they did to the woman that night they would really enjoy what he wanted to do next which was to murder & skin of black dancer/escort.

    Also why would she go have a rape kit done if there was no rape ? Why risk the results if there was no rape ? That doesn't make sense.

    As for the DNA. There could have been condoms used. It's pretty common these days for attackers to wear one to eliminate DNA .

    And the "wall of silence" thing is icing on the cake for me. As the old saying goes people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Well I see the player's attorneys have taken the smear campaign route.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...gle&id=4072998

    And the fact that they couldn't find any DNA is just going to make this worse.

    I'm saddened to say this is likely going to end in much the same way the Kobe Bryant debacle, and a lot of sexual assault cases do, with the accused likely to never see a trial, but with neither party likely to see any vindication in the court of public opinion. The defendants will always be considered rapists. The accuser will always be considered a liar.
    Last edited by doc-catfish; 04-10-2006 at 05:13 PM.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by Blade
    more drama
    No DNA Match


    "No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman," said defense attorney Wade Smith.

    "PROPERGANDA"

    Dont you just love how that red neck flag that hangs so high!
    somebody had to say it! I am sure I will hear a lot comments on my statement.

    If a group of men gang up and rape a woman. Than try to kill her! 9 chance out of ten. They knew what they was doing, and like most rapist they use a codom. This is this womans first party. She happen to get rape by a bunch racist rich dick heads. Who parent will do anything to cover up thier mess! This woman is not a liar ! The team member that sent those emails. saying they should kill strippers. Was just trying to take the people eyes off the real reason they did that to her! Was because she was a black stripper! Again nobody's stupid the men who did have issues. but the money they have help buy them the tools to cover it up! To have all those things done to her! They did it to her was like how the southern racist rednecks did to black women. But they the only differance is she survive it! The fact she is fighting back! She is one stong sister. She has my prayers!
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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    Well I see the player's attorneys taken the smear campaign route.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...gle&id=4072998

    And the fact that they couldn't find any DNA is just going to make this worse.

    I'm saddened to say this is likely going to end in much the same way the Kobe Bryant debacle, and a lot of sexual assault cases do, with the accused likely to never see a trial, but with neither party likely to see any vindication in the court of public opinion. The defendants will always be considered rapists. The accuser will always be considered a liar.

    If it was a white woman they would have did things differantly! Somebody has to say this! How can a woman do that much damage to her self! The evidence of a roudy party like that come on know! LIke she told them to try and kill her! What type of people are they for doing it! Since they are Oh such model citzen of a certain class.
    Last edited by leilanicandy; 04-10-2006 at 05:33 PM. Reason: I took out the profane words :)
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    Default Re: follow-up to duke rape case

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish
    Well I see the player's attorneys have taken the smear campaign route.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...gle&id=4072998
    Yea, and even their peers think it's a lame ass tactic:
    Wendy Murphy, a former Massachusetts prosecutor and adjunct professor at Boston's New England School of Law who teaches a seminar on sexual violence, said releasing details of the photos was a sign that lawyers were worried the DNA testing would produce a match with some of the players.

    "If the DNA isn't going to match, they wouldn't need to do this," she said. "It's almost comical that they think a photograph is proof positive that a rape didn't happen. It's not a smoking gun. It's a muddying of the waters."







    Some Douchebag: "[Pimp C] 12:43 am: its true we got to stick together the black people on SW CK you is teh condoleeza of SW"


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