View Poll Results: how should dancers be punished for ignoring reg's?

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  • fired

    2 4.44%
  • suspended

    1 2.22%
  • sent home that day

    6 13.33%
  • nothing let her pick her own custumers.

    36 80.00%
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Thread: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

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    Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Last week a few dancers got let go and blacklisted because they pissed off the wrong custy. I feel it was the right thing to do because a few high rollers came in and the dancers were on them like sharks, the problem was that these were our once in a blue moon custy's(There enough that we know who they are but not exactly reg's).
    Now the custumers that were getting ignored in all this were the ones that are there everyday(the ones that pay the light bill).
    My question is, what do you guys think the punishment should be for rudness on the dancers part?
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Were the dancers rude in that they did not talk to the regulars or were they rude as in did not thank them for tips, ignored requests for dances etc...?

    If they simply did not talk/sit with the regulars as much as normal I do not see the problem.I am sure they realize the girls had an opportunity to make a lot of money off the "other" guy/s and if they are not going to spend as much or more at that particular time then so be it. Let the girls make their money and return later when they will get the attention they are accustomed to.

    And to answer the question, we should be allowed to pick and choose who-ever we like regardless of how often the person frequents our club. Just because a group of customers (basically) "pay the clubs light bill" does not mean they are spending enough on the girls to pay their light bill.

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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Is this for real? No one can tell a dancer who to spend time with. Is the club paying her? Is the club going to wave her tip-outs and house fees if she chooses to sit with a customer who doesn't decide to spend money on her? Being rude to a customer and ignoring a customer are two vastly diferent things. What you are describing is not rudeness.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    Last week a few dancers got let go and blacklisted because they pissed off the wrong custy. I feel it was the right thing to do because a few high rollers came in and the dancers were on them like sharks, the problem was that these were our once in a blue moon custy's(There enough that we know who they are but not exactly reg's).
    although, i know that it doesn't take much to get a stripper fired. however, i think there should be a reasonable cause behind the firing. in this instance, i have to ask where was management? in the backroom snorting coke? if their behavior was that bad. they could have told the strippers to spread themselves out and try not to gangbang a couple of customers all night.
    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    My question is, what do you guys think the punishment should be for rudness on the dancers part?
    punishment for what? at worst, they were just being flaky. if you punish every stripper for being flaky. there wouldn't be any strippers left at the end of the day.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    It's part of the game, sure if sucks for those regulars but if you're a regular custy you should have realized long ago that this could happen on occassion. The only fair punishment to the dancer should be a loss of business from those regs going forward. I don't see the club having a reason to punish the dancers.

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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    I would postulate that it neither rude nor flaky. No club REQUIRES you to spend time with customers just because they are regulars. In fact, no club requires you to spend time with any particular customer at all. In-DE-pendant Contractors. This is how strip clubs work - if it is busy, you have to spend more. If the dancer has a better option, and you wish to retain her company (or "company" if you guys would prefer) you had best become an even better option. And there can be nothing less flaky than glomming onto the big spenders. That is non-flakiness at its most firm and... I don't know, gelatinous. What is the opposite of flaky, anyway? No guy has a problem with this system when the club is dead and the girls are lonely and poor, do they?
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    What is the opposite of flaky, anyway?
    Conventional, dependable, responsible...

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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    This is silly. If a whale happens to swim into the club I can hardly blame the girls for grabbing their harpoons and going fishing.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I would postulate that it neither rude nor flaky.
    oh c'mon, it's a sc. there's always some flakiness afoot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    In fact, no club requires you to spend time with any particular customer at all. In-DE-pendant Contractors. This is how strip clubs work
    obviously, that's not the case in this instance. whether you agree or disagree with the decision. the stripppers were fired for not spending time with the other customers. i'm sure whomever fired them sure thought they acting flaky. although, the decision itself sounds kinda flaky. see? flakiness. you can't get away from it.
    Last edited by mr_punk; 04-07-2006 at 04:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Maybe its the state of the clubs around here, this not exactly being a hot zone for tourists or even conventioneers, but personally I think dancers give their regulars more perks than they deserve and as a result make less money than they could be making.

    Besides that, a smart regular knows that no dancer can make it on his contributions alone, and realizes that the best times to come in to see his fave are those off-peak ones where he's likely to be far and away her best prospect for making money.

    If I were one of the regs at this club, I'd chock it up to bad timing, and save my money for another night. Shit happens.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Wow,someone needs therapy.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    You all know my stance in regards to regulars. I think there was more afoot than that though. We are all aware that management doesn't give a shit about their strippers. Obviously, one customer who washes someone's hands felt wrong.

    I, of course, would not have worked at a club where decent earnings were contingent upon regulars.....I pay my own light bill.....

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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    i have to ask where was management? in the backroom snorting coke? if their behavior was that bad. they could have told the strippers to spread themselves out and try not to gangbang a couple of customers all night.
    I agree totally with Mr. P on this point. (I know, don't everyone die from a seizure.) It was up to management to handle this at the time. Let me guess. Since management was asleep at the wheel, they looked bad and had to overcompensate to restore themselves in the complainants' eyes, so they lashed out at the dancers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    Last week a few dancers got let go and blacklisted ...
    Whoa. Whatdya mean BLACKLISTED? I mean, I know what blacklisted means. And I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't happen. But is that what you're saying? Word went out to other clubs not to hire them? If that's what you're suggesting, that is extreme, unethical and probably illegal. As a practical matter, it at least deserves to be roundly criticized here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    ... because they pissed off the wrong custy.
    Well, there ya go. That's the REAL reason, isn't it? At least, the reason that the punishment was so severe. Not that they neglected a club full of regular customers who pay the light bills but that they neglected the WRONG customer, like one with an inside connection to management and a big mouth. Exactly who was this customer who's so privileged?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    I feel it was the right thing to do because a few high rollers came in and the dancers were on them like sharks, the problem was that these were our once in a blue moon custy's(There enough that we know who they are but not exactly reg's).
    No, now think about this for a minute. Forget everything else that's been said about independent contractors and labor ethics and all that BS. The next time these high rollers come in, I realize they'll be other girls. But are you going to tell a high roller that that one special dancer that he bonded with last time isn't there anymore? How much sense does that make from a business perspective? None. A milder course of action was called for, if nothing else but from a business standpoint. Blacklisting works both ways; from the customer standpoint, it's called boycotting.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    Now the custumers that were getting ignored in all this were the ones that are there everyday(the ones that pay the light bill).
    Exactly how many customers were ignored, how many dancers were on duty at the time, and how many dancers were tied up with the whales? You haven't given specifics.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    My question is, what do you guys think the punishment should be for rudness on the dancers part?
    Well, not fired. I think it should be announced that they've been bad and they should be put in time out for 15 minutes on stage with their noses against the pole, and no tipping. In-house stripper punishment. Hey, I think I'm onto something that could be a real customer draw.

    -Ev

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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence
    Well, not fired. I think it should be announced that they've been bad and they should be put in time out for 15 minutes on stage with their noses against the pole, and no tipping. In-house stripper punishment. Hey, I think I'm onto something that could be a real customer draw.
    making strippers bend over with their noses against the pole? why, that's a brillant idea. in fact, you can goose it up a bit by painting a bull's-eye target on their butts and letting the customers throw soft tomatoes at their asses. whomever collects the most points gets a free lap. hell, i might even start paying attention to the stage for a change.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    After reading my original post I realise that i did not paint a good enough picture, sorry I was tired from the drive home, I will explain in greater detail.

    The night in question we had about 30 dancers, it was a medium sized crowd and more than enough dancers to go around.
    The night was going well at first but at around 9:30PM a small group of whales came in(about six of them). well all the dancers crowded around their area, so you basically had about 20 dancers hanging on 6 people, the manager saw what was going on and told the girls to spread around and they did(but they would rush around the club and rush back to the same 6 guys and spend waaaaayyyy too much time there).
    So the manager was calling all the dancers one at a time to his office after their stage rotations and telling them to spread around(for the second time).
    Out of that only about 8 refused to listen and of them 2 were banned for a month and 6 were fired(repeat offenders).
    What i think is funny is the dancers that made the most that night were the 10 dancers that were trying to keep the reg's happy(even though we lost alot of reg's that night because they got tired of waiting for dancers to make their way to them.
    And when the whales left at around 12PM, The club was almost empty for the last 2 hours because many of the reg's had already left.

    Now i do understand dancers have to make their money, but a club has to keep their doors open also, and there are fewer and fewer clubs in this area, this paticuler club is almost an hour south of DFW because arlinton and dallas are making it hard to stay in regulation(with the new 6ft rule etc etc..) This club is on county land under no cities jurastiction(so there are fewer rules).
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Whoa. Whatdya mean BLACKLISTED? I mean, I know what blacklisted means. And I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't happen. But is that what you're saying? Word went out to other clubs not to hire them? If that's what you're suggesting, that is extreme, unethical and probably illegal. As a practical matter, it at least deserves to be roundly criticized here.
    I agree, I dont like the idea of black listing either, and yes it is illegal but its hard to prove, in this area most of the clubs are owned by the same 4 or 5 people and they all know each other, the only SC's that seem to be privately owned seem to be the hole in the wall's.
    Example:
    peepin toms & hard bodies same owner.
    babydolls & chicas locas same ower.
    and most of the clubs in dallas are corprate.
    And the club managers often run in the same circles so black listing is very easy.
    And the fact that this is a bar an hour outside DFW means alot of our dancers have already been blacklisted or fired from DFW clubs anyway.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    well all the dancers crowded around their area, so you basically had about 20 dancers hanging on 6 people
    okay, now that's ridiculous and flakey.
    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    Out of that only about 8 refused to listen and of them 2 were banned for a month and 6 were fired(repeat offenders).
    oh, i see. in that case, carry on.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Hmm. So you have 20 dancers who think that 6 people are more profitable than spreading around. So what? If they are wrong, their loss. Poor regs who want the dancers company can get up and ask for it. Or ask the waitress to send Candy over to dance for them. If they would rather leave, then, frankly, they are just immature and there is nothing to be done. I'd be ticked off if a manager told me to lay off the "whale" and spread around. I'd be like "fuck that, let someone else "spread around." I'm keeping me my whale. Like I care about Petey the reg's feelings." And every other girl would have - quite legitimately - the same feelings. (by the way - I might care about Petey's feelings. But if Petey were the kind of regular whose feelings I cared about, he would not object to me having a good night on someone else's tab). As I said - if you want the company, and there is a better bet you have to become a BETTER bet. This is normal. As for the club keeping its doors open - that is the problem of the management. As in - it is not ours. The whole reason we PAY the managers to work in the club is specifically so that isn't our problem. Our ONLY problem is how to maximize our night. We don't concern ourselves with the bar - unless we're stupid. So no. Even the new revised version is entirely fucked up and wrong.

    Punk - okay. I stand corrected. It obviously happened in this case. What I meant to communicate was that it is far from standard business practice to dictate to the dancers who they spend time with or who they don't. That in fact the standard business practice is to let them make their own decisions in that regard.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Hmm. So you have 20 dancers who think that 6 people are more profitable than spreading around. So what?
    if you say so. i'll let you ladies fight it out with the oppressive, patriarchal, sc management.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    What I meant to communicate was that it is far from standard business practice to dictate to the dancers who they spend time with or who they don't. That in fact the standard business practice is to let them make their own decisions in that regard.
    i understand, but you have to admit this is an unusual circumstance.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Hmm. So you have 20 dancers who think that 6 people are more profitable than spreading around. So what? If they are wrong, their loss. Poor regs who want the dancers company can get up and ask for it. Or ask the waitress to send Candy over to dance for them. If they would rather leave, then, frankly, they are just immature and there is nothing to be done. I'd be ticked off if a manager told me to lay off the "whale" and spread around. I'd be like "fuck that, let someone else "spread around." I'm keeping me my whale. Like I care about Petey the reg's feelings." And every other girl would have - quite legitimately - the same feelings. (by the way - I might care about Petey's feelings. But if Petey were the kind of regular whose feelings I cared about, he would not object to me having a good night on someone else's tab). As I said - if you want the company, and there is a better bet you have to become a BETTER bet. This is normal. As for the club keeping its doors open - that is the problem of the management. As in - it is not ours. The whole reason we PAY the managers to work in the club is specifically so that isn't our problem. Our ONLY problem is how to maximize our night. We don't concern ourselves with the bar - unless we're stupid. So no. Even the new revised version is entirely fucked up and wrong.

    Punk - okay. I stand corrected. It obviously happened in this case. What I meant to communicate was that it is far from standard business practice to dictate to the dancers who they spend time with or who they don't. That in fact the standard business practice is to let them make their own decisions in that regard.
    You forget one thing, the whole reason the club is there, for the custumers.
    1st rule of business is the custumer is always right.

    And you treat all customers with the same respect.
    And if you think about it those reg's spend more in the club and on the dancers than the whales do being that they are there every day.

    That what i mean by the reg's paying the light bill, since they are the stable profit base.
    It funny that so many(not all) dancers feel that theirs is the only point of view that matters, its not that simple the club has to make money and the custy's should get value for their dollar, hell at many clubs with high covers it would suck to pay to get in only to get ignored, and its not the custy's job to have to flag down a dancer, if you went to maceys and walked around the shoe department for half an hour and nobody said"may I help you?" you would be pissed (and rightfully so) and if you complained to management some sales person would be unemployed.
    Now i can see if the place is packed a bit of a weight is to be expected but when there is enough staff to go around and they are herding around one area, that is not exceptable. Many dancers are always trying to tell us that this is a business, well then treat it like one.
    Its funny that a few of the dancers make more than the others by dancing for the guys that nobody else wants to dance for they nickel and dime their way to the bank its economics 101 they make their money on volume not markup.
    While some dancers who charge from 30 - 50 for a table dance and get 5 or 6 dances on a slow night some dancers do them for $10.00 and get dances all night and hardly every have to be on stage, and what is funny is the girls who want to make their money in markup know this but still dont want to hustle and make more.
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    You forget one thing, the whole reason the club is there, for the custumers.
    1st rule of business is the custumer is always right.
    Okay, that's just a catchphrase. We all know it is not true. The customers who want me to spend 20 minutes chatting them up for one dance are wrong. I can live without them. If the bar can't, they have to take steps (their own steps - they can't just try to force me to take steps) to look after it. The customer who, last night, tried to put my hand on his penis at the bar (without even slipping me five bucks I might add) - wrong. Customers who have the idea that I have some obligation to spend an equal amount of time with them even if they are spending (or I suspect that they will spend) 1/4 of what I could get at another table - wrong. If I started acting like the customers were always right I'd wind up gang banged while tied to the pole, with like $10 in my bra. Now go ahead - ask me how I know.

    And you treat all customers with the same respect.
    That depends on what you mean by respect. I doubt it will be news to anyone that all dancer do and should spend more time, are more lenient, more friendly with big spenders than small spenders. I don't kick the small spenders while I'm walking to the bathroom, but I'm under no obligation to talk with them, spend time with them or even dance for them if I don't feel like it.
    And if you think about it those reg's spend more in the club and on the dancers than the whales do being that they are there every day.
    Well, now you're talking about business strategy. And you might be right (I don't think you are, but whatever), but that isn't your call. It is the call for the business owner in question - i.e. the dancer.

    That what i mean by the reg's paying the light bill, since they are the stable profit base.
    See above.
    It funny that so many(not all) dancers feel that theirs is the only point of view that matters, its not that simple the club has to make money and the custy's should get value for their dollar, hell at many clubs with high covers it would suck to pay to get in only to get ignored, and its not the custy's job to have to flag down a dancer, if you went to maceys and walked around the shoe department for half an hour and nobody said"may I help you?" you would be pissed (and rightfully so) and if you complained to management some sales person would be unemployed.
    Yes but I don't work for Macy's. And I don't think anyone pays to work at Macy's. And even at Macy's the big spenders get better treatment. See here's the thing - my point of view (as had been made very clear to me many times) means nothing to the bar. They don't really care about my profits and losses - they care about their own. Me too. The bar is not in my purview of concern, and the customers get EXCELLENT value (or at least as good a value as I'm willing to give out) for every dollar they spend on me. The dollars they give to the bar are not my problem. I don't care. So in terms of my business, indeed, my point of view is the ONLY one that matters. If the bar doesn't like it, they should make it just as profitable for me to sit with the low spenders as the high. What? They don't want to do that? Oh. Quel Surprise. Well, then. I guess we're back to my business vs. their business.

    And by the way - do a little perusing on this board to see how many guys are irritated by the parade of "wanna dance, wanna dance" and how many WANT to be left alone.

    Now i can see if the place is packed a bit of a weight is to be expected but when there is enough staff to go around and they are herding around one area, that is not exceptable. Many dancers are always trying to tell us that this is a business, well then treat it like one.
    No, honey. It's OUR business and we get to decide what is most profitable for us. And frankly, if the spenders are spending enough to make it profitable for 20 dancers - obviously 20 dancers are what they want. So, to me, it seems perfectly acceptable. Look - there is a reason that this is not standard practice. Because it is stupid. You cannot force dancers to be "spread around" and it is stupid to try to force them to spend time with guys when they feel (even if they are mistaken) that they can be making money/making more money elsewhere in the room. I mean "Look Jenny. I realize that you think you could do $300 this hour sitting over by Yoda (of course, not being Brazilian or you know... very nice, this would never happen. So this is an excellent example of the dancer being mistaken over her earning potential. But let's suppose). But instead, I want to go and make $40 with Mr. P. Because the customers are always right, and he might not come back in if you don't make an effort." Like what the fuck? Let me go try to make my $300, and if I'm mistaken, it's my problem not yours.

    Its funny that a few of the dancers make more than the others by dancing for the guys that nobody else wants to dance for they nickel and dime their way to the bank its economics 101 they make their money on volume not markup.
    Again - business plan. You may be right or not. That doesn't matter. I get to make my own. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that the regs are there all the time, if they liked me yesterday they will like me tomorrow and the whales are probably pretty close to a one off. Most patrons are not so stupid as to demand I make less money sitting with them.

    While some dancers who charge from 30 - 50 for a table dance and get 5 or 6 dances on a slow night some dancers do them for $10.00 and get dances all night and hardly every have to be on stage, and what is funny is the girls who want to make their money in markup know this but still dont want to hustle and make more.
    Well, I do them at the standard rate. I never mark up because, well, I suspect I couldn't sell a marked up dance. But if I thought I could - well, I still wouldn't, because we have standardized pricing. But I would weasel around by charging an hourly rate and then dance prices on top. My reason for doing that is exactly what you said - I don't think I can. But if I could, I would be all over that plan and say the same thing I said above - Dude I do this for a living. I can make own business plan, thank you. If you are offering advice - thanks. If you are demanding that I perform to yours - well, no.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  22. #22
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    i understand, but you have to admit this is an unusual circumstance.
    I do? Hmm. Crybaby customer is pissy because the dancers are flocking to higher spenders. This is unusual? Are you sure? And I have to admit this? Yeah, I don't think I do.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  23. #23
    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    You forget one thing, the whole reason the club is there, for the custumers.
    1st rule of business is the custumer is always right.
    But you forgot something yourself. In most strip clubs, the club and the dancers are two separate enterprises and each dancer is her own enterprise. Just because you spend a lot on alcohol means bupjus to any of the dancers. Just because you spend a lot on Dancer A, means bupkus to dancers B, C and D. If you spend a little each on all four of them, they probably consider you small potatoes, and therefore expendible. Like I said earlier, shit happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBM4Latinaz
    And you treat all customers with the same respect.
    But you're not calling for the same respect here. You're saying that certain customers should be entitled to preferential respect because they show up more often. If the gals had all ignored Mr. High Roller, would he have a beef here too?

    And if you think about it those reg's spend more in the club and on the dancers than the whales do being that they are there every day.
    I tell you what, go to a club in another city where you're not a regular, and try to buy dances from gals who are all clingy clingy to that club's regs for the entire evening (which I've personally experienced more than I'd like to) and tell me you still believe this load of bull.

    You need to understand that dancers work on what I call the money:maintenence ratio. Its not just how much money a customer spends, its also how much maintenence she has to put up to get that money, and lets face it a rich out of towner is more often than not going to have a much better M:M ratio than a regular is, esspecially if the regular is boring, obnoxious, entitlement oriented, or otherwise a pain in the ass to deal with. We've commented here that not all dancers are created equal. Well the same is true of us. In otherwords, Your Mileage May Vary.

    And while being a frequent customer ought to in principle get you a little better service, but it doesn't mean that its going to happen in practice, or that you're in any repect entitlted to it. Like any other entity you do business with, if you don't think you're getting enough for your patronage, simply take your money someplace else. God knows that in strip clubs the options have never been more plentiful.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

  24. #24
    God/dess mr_punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    I do? Hmm. Crybaby customer is pissy because the dancers are flocking to higher spenders. This is unusual? Are you sure? And I have to admit this? Yeah, I don't think I do.
    look, you can put down the NOW castration tool kit and before you give me some spiel about being an IC. yeah, i know, but the problem is that management doesn't treat you like an IC in every instance and many of you ladies are willing to put up with it. like i said, this is an issue for you two to work out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    If I started acting like the customers were always right I'd wind up gang banged while tied to the pole, with like $10 in my bra.
    nah, that would be worth like $5 tops.
    Is it not a problem that the woman have a smaller brain than a man? The government scientist Dr. Yamuka has proved it is size of squirrel. - Borat

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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Rude to reg's what do you think should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    look, you can put down the NOW castration tool kit and before you give me some spiel about being an IC.
    Honey - I NEVER put down my castration tool kit.
    yeah, i know, but the problem is that management doesn't treat you like an IC in every instance and many of you ladies are willing to put up with it. like i said, this is an issue for you two to work out.
    I was pointing out how the behaviour was unreasonable AND unusual. You said that the circumstances were unusual - I said they really weren't. In other words the situation described is one in which dancers are, by the industry standard, left to sink or swim on their own.

    By the way - are you seriously the only person left in North America who truly believes that the consumer has nothing to do with labour relations? Do you not think that is a little naive? Yeah. I called you naive.

    nah, that would be worth like $5 tops.
    See? An excellent example of how the customer is, in fact not always right. Because I know perfectly well that I could get at least $5.50. $5.75 if I remember to wear mascara.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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