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Thread: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

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    Default what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    due to the joy of student loans i have to put off a permanent retirement from club dancing, and in the meantime i have to return to my last club. it's excellent money potential and all that, but there is one problem.

    the club diva/resident feature is an undercutter. she is literally a primary crowd draw and has been at the club from its beginning and has tons of devoted regulars and accounts for a sizable fraction of the repeat business we get (guys come in because they know of her name via word of mouth and internet postings). the problem is that she gives out free dances and price-cuts to acquire those regulars. all the other girls know that she routinely does private dances for less than 20 per, and it's starting to cause tension, not least because sometimes those repeat customers get dances with other girls (including myself) and want the 'special dances' she offers. they stop after 1-2 songs if a girl charges even the standard minimum 20 per song.

    what is the best way to handle this? she is best friends with management and tips very generously to staff. basically i would like to sell multiple dances to the repeat customers who are happy to try several girls in a night, but get the most dances from her because she gives out free or reduced price ones. i don't mind that she is a huge stage draw and advertisement for the club, but i do mind that word of mouth leads a lot of guys to think other dancers suck for charging even 20 a song.

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    AlexxaHex
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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Explain to the customer that you are worth every penny. Your dances are incredible, special and personal. If they complain that Superstar Diva Dancer charges less, say that popularity does not necessarily match passion or skill. Make yourself seem like the club's best kept secret, and therefore you have more energy to devote to each customer. Never be catty or insult her in front of customers...the best way to win them over is to pay attention to them and make them feel special. Queen of the Strippers can't spend that much time when she is so busy with every guy in the club.

    ~OR~

    Undercut her on price. If she wants to play dirty, go ahead and do the same, especially if management doesn't have an issue with girls doing this. Even though it seems like you're taking a price cut, you'll probably sell more dances in the long run. Or you can offer 2-for-1 specials on certain days when the club doesn't. Make the guy think he is getting something unique.

    I'd like to hear some of the more experienced salespeople/dancers opinions on this. I've only been dancing for a short while, so my advice may not be as great as some of the others. This is just what I would do with no outside advice.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    DW, what do you think? I think you can get the girls together and talk to the managers. You have to find out what they want to do. If the managers want special rules just for her then I agree with Alexa. The 'real' dance price is what the managers allow.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    I think she is an excellent salesperson and a profitable business owner.

    What she is doing is perfectly legal and (obviously) effective. She has developed a steady clientele and maintained good rapport with the management. I'm guessing that she probably negotiates a "free" dance after the customer purchases 4 or 6 or 8 at full price. Management is happy because this dancer brings multiple regular customers (who paid the door fee and buys drinks) into the club. I don't think "complaining" to management will get you anywhere, it will only blackball YOU!! Management wishes they had more dancers like this one!

    I challenge you to name one business that does not offer sales, discounts, or incentives in one form or another. The "unfairness" you are voicing is the same complaint that many small business owners aka "mom and pop shops" have against market giants like Walmart.

    Now, you have two options on how to deal with her "walmart" customers that are used to getting price breaks. One, you are going to have to match her "walmart" prices in hopes of attracting some of her clientele. The other option is to completely stay away from the customers you know come in for her, and try to sell to the more upscale buyer who will pay $20 per dance and/or VIP. You know your club better than I do. If it is a large club with a VIP room and high volume, option two might work. Otherwise, you are going to have to choose option one.

    We call Walmart and Costco "the $200" store...because even if you go in there with the intention of spending $5 on shampoo and soap, you walk out with $200 worth of stuff you weren't planning on buying. Volume sales is why walmart is the #1 retailer in the country and this entertainer is the #1 earner at your club.
    Rebecca Avalon







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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    i don't want to complain to management, i just want to figure out how to get those customers that get dances from 2-4 girls each visit, and give her 5-6 dances and the other girls 1-2. those guys are untapped money. this is a smallish club that just happens to offer a very high earning potential. all the private dances are done in either private rooms or on couches upstairs. it is pretty evident if one is dancing at the same time as she is that she's not selling any 4-8 dances before discount. she is honestly doing stuff like 3 or 4/40 all the time with the vast majority of her customers on most shifts (including busy ones). she is also high contact.

    for various reasons, most of our upscale guys are already customers of other girls, though i sometimes sell to them anyhow. and upscale guys who aren't regulars of someone i sell the majority of the time. but the bulk of money is all the 2-5 dance guys that get snippy of late if dancers charge even 20 a song for full nude contact dancing. i just feel like that's kind of a wtf situation she has put the other dancers in.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist
    DW, what do you think? I think you can get the girls together and talk to the managers. You have to find out what they want to do. If the managers want special rules just for her then I agree with Alexa. The 'real' dance price is what the managers allow.
    My thought is that Britney is actually on the right track here. Rather than an either/or situation, turn it into an AND situation though.

    What I mean by that is you should never drop your prices unless you specifically hear the feedback that "Dancer X give me a special price". Then you play both aces. "[1]Well, I understand that she may give a price break of sorts [2]and [3]I can also tell you that you get what you pay for. I'll tell you what, I know that what I have to offer is worth the price [4]you will pay. [5]So why don't we do this...buy 3 dances and I'll throw in #4 for free."

    Okay, let me explain all this by the numbers:
    1. You acknowledge that there is a price break being given somewhere.
    2. Always say "and" and not "but". And affirms what comes before it, "but" negates it so always say "and" instead of "but."
    3. You declare the high value of your dances and tha it has a high value.
    4. "You will pay" is a very powerful set of words. The term for this is called an Embedded Command. Some people call them "Time Bombs". What this does is embed a specific command to the customer that they will take an action rather than give them the option.
    5. Offer a discount and read their body language the instant you say it. If they open up, hard close them on the deal right there. If they hessitate, explain the process to them in a bit more detail as to how much fun you are going to have and then close them.
    You'll have a lot of success from this sytem...let me know how it goes. Just make sure you practice it a bit.

    The ORIGINAL Stripper Sales School
    -
    Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle. ~Abraham Lincoln

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    what I don't understand is, if this chick is such a hot commodity, why does she undercut? She should overcut! (I don't think that is the right word but you know what I mean) If she's so she famous and has a huge following should be charging thirty dollars a dance, not twenty! then she would really bank! guys (and girls too) want things even more when when they are harder to get...

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    The economic word for it is the curve of diminishing returns. She has found it you haven’t. She has discovered the correct price to maximize her long range earnings. If you are not as attractive or as high a draw you will have to price yourself lower. When you hit the right price you will maximize your earnings.



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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Wow, Britney hit it right on the nose. It's hard to like Wal-Mart, but you can't argue with successful sales methods. Merely having low prices isn't enough (K-Mart), but you have to offer something special. I like like the idea of the 5th song being free. The concept of free dances annoys me. I don't like feeling like a K-mart, but a general good shopping experience.

    I read a user in here once doing something that I found interesting....a break song.

    after 4 dances, take a break for a song and stay in the couch room with him talking, but tell him you are not charging him for the 5th song. That way you're not giving out free dances and he'll probably stay for more.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    I always like to say: Cheaper is never better in the sex biz hunny; it's just CHEAPER
    Obviously she only draws so much because of her cheapness - like Wal-Mart. If it's a problem for you, I'd just work somewhere else. If enough girls leave, perhaps management will get the clue and set a standard price.

    Often the "star" really has a negative impact on business - but good luck convincing any dumbass SC manager that. Best to just move on to greener pastures.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnalian
    what I don't understand is, if this chick is such a hot commodity, why does she undercut? She should overcut! (I don't think that is the right word but you know what I mean) If she's so she famous and has a huge following should be charging thirty dollars a dance, not twenty! then she would really bank! guys (and girls too) want things even more when when they are harder to get...
    Exactly. Which proves my previous point that her popularity is really only driven by her cheapness.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    I always like to say: Cheaper is never better in the sex biz hunny; it's just CHEAPER Obviously she only draws so much because of her cheapness - like Wal-Mart. If it's a problem for you, I'd just work somewhere else. If enough girls leave, perhaps management will get the clue and set a standard price.

    Often the "star" really has a negative impact on business - but good luck convincing any dumbass SC manager that. Best to just move on to greener pastures.
    It might not be that simple. Firstly, this diva is obviously out to maximise her earnings, and is not too concerned what knock on effects this has on the other dancers in the club. Moreover, as far as management is concerned she is clearly an asset. She also appears responsible for bringing in a substantial part of the clientelle.

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella
    She is literally a primary crowd draw and has been at the club from its beginning and has tons of devoted regulars and accounts for a sizable fraction of the repeat business we get (guys come in because they know of her name via word of mouth and internet postings). the problem is that she gives out free dances and price-cuts to acquire those regulars.
    If you took her out of the equation, you could well have a substantially emptier club, particularly if she moves to another club within easy commuting distance for her customer base. Morever, she seems to be operating within the rules and with the support of the mangement.

    Quote Originally Posted by britneyireland
    What she is doing is perfectly legal and (obviously) effective. She has developed a steady clientele and maintained good rapport with the management. I'm guessing that she probably negotiates a "free" dance after the customer purchases 4 or 6 or 8 at full price. Management is happy because this dancer brings multiple regular customers (who paid the door fee and buys drinks) into the club. I don't think "complaining" to management will get you anywhere, it will only blackball YOU!! Management wishes they had more dancers like this one!
    I think DW has the correct strategy - if you can't beat her join her, but only on the right terms. She's bringing customers through the door for you and these customers are willing to spend.

    Like any of the male of the species, they'll go for a bargain if they can get one, and they know from "super diva" that discounted dances are on offer. You don't have to offer the discounted dances until you've run out of other options, but your customer base knows cheaper alternatives are on offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DancerWealth
    ...you should never drop your prices unless you specifically hear the feedback that "Dancer X give me a special price".
    Look at it from the "guy" point of view... They know cheaper dances can be had, and any attempt not to give some form of discount will ultimately make you look as if you're trying to charge them more than the market rate. Unfair I know, but that's how they look at it. (Or at least how I would). Get that reputation, and you're going to affect your potential for repeat business.

    At the end of the day, you go to the club to earn $$$'s, and "super diva" is doing that in spades. Surely, at the end of the day what should concern you is how much is in your purse at the finish of the shift. If using her tactics lets you improve your earnings, then you're better off than holding out for $20 a dance, no matter how frustrating that might be to you personally.

    It might be a glib way of looking at it, but if offering discounted dances on occasion results in better earnings, you're gaining out of the deal, not losing.

    Phil.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Cheap business is always cheap business. No matter how you slice it. No dancer should be selling dances below the club's set standard price. Even if she is some supposed "star"

    Cheapness begets cheapness. Once you start catering to bargainhunters, you find yourself in a cycle of never-ending bargaining. Guys always want to see how cheap they can get it. Give them an inch; they take a mile. Give them a free dance after 5 paid ones once, next time they want a free one after 4, then 3. And on and on.

    Like I said - the "star" in this case is only so popular because of her cheapness. The proof is in the fact that the custies won't buy from girls who don't dance cheap. Anybody can generate a "market" for herself that way - and of COURSE the local custies will spread the word. "Hey Joe, DimwitDancer only charges $15...", etc etc.

    Undercutting is ALWAYS undercutting and it's NEVER beneficial to the business on the whole in the long. NEVER.

    That club doesn't sound like a good place to work to me. Really only good for the "star"

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Yeah - higher prices are all good if you can get them, but if you are undercutting, in a significant way, the "standard" or "minimum" price you just start a race to the bottom. Everyone who wants to do $5.00 lapdances, hands up? Everyone go on ahead and laugh - I know a girl who does them. 4 for $20. It was a couple years ago at Seductions on Bloor, if there are any guys here interested.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnalian
    what I don't understand is, if this chick is such a hot commodity, why does she undercut? She should overcut! (I don't think that is the right word but you know what I mean) If she's so she famous and has a huge following should be charging thirty dollars a dance, not twenty!
    Think of it in this respect: $A x B = $C.

    $A = price being charged per dance
    B = number of dances being sold at that price

    Now lets use some numbers:

    $A + B = $C

    1. $25 X 20 = $400
    2. $20 x 30 = $600
    3. $15 X 40 = $600
    4. $10 X 50 = $500

    The lower your price, the more people who can afford to buy. If lowering your $A, gets you a higher $C in the end (such as going from line 1 to line 2), then undercutting might be worth it. At a point though, you may be just making yourself do extra work for the same money (line 2 to line 3), or possibly less money (line 3 to line 4). The key is to find the ideal price. The problem of course is that's always a floating number depending on who is in the club.

    It should be pointed out that not all lap dances are created equal. Some of us would rather spend the standard rate on a girl of our choosing than deal with an undercutter who walks up and offers a discount. I've had a number of girls at me home club offer me 2/$30s when business was slow and I've turned them all down.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    i've done a couple of shifts since then and talked to some of the girls at work since posting this and i am pretty much going to bail for another club for awhile. for months i was earning pretty close to her earnings (higher hourly even) because i pretty much never danced for less than 25 a song and often 30-35 per. and the higher pricing made up for my lack of stage tips.

    to some extent, bridgette is right-- there's recently been a lot of weekends where TopDancer was the only dancer leaving with money at night's end. i will just have to wait out the slow period (april/may) and return to this club when there's enough foot traffic to sell to more discriminating guys. my repeat business, such as it is, tends to be guys who were dropping 100s in the club on me and sometimes also other dancers.

    i like the earning potential that club has due to location, but it is bleeding girls, probably for good reason. thanks for all the advice-- that club will be there if i decide to give it another try during summer (which is a super-busy time anyhow).

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    ^^If the club is bleeding girls, there is always a reason. Obviously the undercutting is causing a problem, as it ALWAYS does.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    but if you are undercutting, in a significant way, the "standard" or "minimum" price you just start a race to the bottom.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    DW and Doc Catfish make good points. Doing a combination of what both of them say makes good sense. Not every day, but on days where the money just isn't flowing. It isn't flowing many times because the guys JUST CAN'T AFFORD TO BLOW LOT'S OF MONEY.

    It must also be understood that Miabella works in a nude BYOB club in Houston, and in nude clubs dances tend to be higher than the going rate of $20 per song. Plus the cover charge is higher in those clubs too, so the guys are out a chunk of money just walking in the door.

    When a club is getting a lot more for a dance, guys are MUCH MUCH more careful about buying them. High prices are part of the reason we aren't doing as well as dancers. Guys DON'T have unlimited budgets. More and more people are cash poor because of the shitty and greedy direction this country is taking. There just aren't enough upper middle class and wealthy people to keep all of us rolling in dough, are there?

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    Moderator Optimist's Avatar
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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    I don't think our prices are too high. They've been the same for over ten years! We haven't had a cost of living adjustment. I think it's management's misunderstanding how to retain the dance fans that's hurting us. Too many girls of a lesser hotness, music too loud and too young, hitting us up for too many fees etc.

  22. #21
    Pamela
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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    This top earner knows how to market herself! Follow in her foot steps!!!!! This is how dancers learn how to make the $$$$, we watch the top earners. We then try to incorporate such moves into our routines! See how she dresses? Come close to it...her hair...come close to the style...her voice, the way she talks with customers? Do all this but don't look like you are trying to be her! It's kinda tricky at first, but very do-able!

    You will get there!

    Pamela

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Okay, the price of a dance is not that high. if a guy scoffs at $20, have him go up to random, attractive women at the mall and ask them to get naked and gyrate all over them and then perhaps he may change his perception. Where else can a guy gesture for a pretty girl to come to him and she will run over with a smile? This is special and it should be somewhat pricey!

    Now, with that said....that should be the frame of mind when selling dances. The price of a dance isn't just for 4 minutes of our time, for which $20 is relatively high. it's for the whole experience which is supposed to make a guy feel good.

    THAT is marketing...not necessarily cutting prices. Sometimes you want to pay a little extra to feel special, even when it's all the same in the end. Think of what you spend on jewelry (or lingerie, food, a hotel, etc.)

    You could buy just a regular silver chain... but even though there are still people buying the cheapo version (and cheapo jewelry companies do well), it doesn't mean people don't want the expensive one as long as it makes them *feel* better. it is in clever marketing, and lowering prices isn't the only way to do it.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Pamela makes perfect sense. Why is it in this business dancers are so critical of each other and so catty, instead of trying to emulate other girls who are more successful than them.

    People who are successful in life realize that they don't know everything and are quick to copy others who are more successful in business. Complaining won't increase ones income. Learning from, and doing what others are doing who are more successful will.

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Tina.

    Thats women anywhere in any profession. I can be very catty and I love it because it so pisses stupid people off.
    AmyLynne

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    Default Re: what to do when the top earner is an undercutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by mark45y
    The economic word for it is the curve of diminishing returns. She has found it you haven’t. She has discovered the correct price to maximize her long range earnings. If you are not as attractive or as high a draw you will have to price yourself lower. When you hit the right price you will maximize your earnings.
    The law of diminishing returns refers to saturation, not price; i.e. if you buy three pieces of pizza and you are full, buying a fourth piece of pizza doesn't really benefit you because you are already full. In economic terms, this dancer is taking advantage of price elasticity. Cigarettes, for example, have a high price elasticity -- no matter how high the price goes, smokers need their nicotine and will continue purchasing cigarettes. Unfortunately, if dancers are treated as a good, then they have a low price elasticity. Customers don't NEED a certain dancer, they just want the cheapest dancer.

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