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Thread: Can he sue and win? (really long)

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Can he sue and win? (really long)

    I went to go look at an apartment this past Sunday with my boyfriend. We saw the place, we liked it and we wanted it. The landlord wanted 1st month's rent, last month's rent, and one month security. The rent for the place is $1290 so $1290+$1290+$1290= $3870. Since my bf and I didn't have all of that, he said he would take whatever we had at the time, and take the rest in two payment. What we had was $350, so we gave him that, and wrote out this agreement on a sheet of looseleaf:

    Lease Agreement
    Received $350 from (my name here) towards rent and security for Apt #5 located at (address). Balance of $3870 reflecting security and rent due on or before April 28,2006 as follows:
    $2520- due on or before April 21, 2006
    $1000- due on or before April 28, 2006
    $3520- Total balance due to Landlord
    Lease begins immediately and ends on April 30, 2007. Tenant takes premises "as is" and will furnish their own refrigerator. Monthly rent is $1290.
    Agreed and Accepted:
    (my signature, my BF's signature, and the landlord's)

    After the entire deposit would be paid of, then we would sign the lease for the apartment and get the keys.

    Here's the thing: on our way home, by BF and I decided that we didn't want the place for a number of reasons. So my BF calls the landlord the same night and tells him we don't want the place, but tells him he can keep the $350 since we wasted his time. The landlord says he wants to speak to me. So I call him Monday morning, tell him the same thing, and he says he'll sue us. So I say, "Ok, you have our names, addresses, and SSN's, so you know where to find us." But he says, "Oh know, I don't want to do that, let's make a deal." The landlord claims that since he told two potential tenants that the place was rented, we should pay him at least one month's rent. So he says that if I give him the balance between what I already paid him and one month's rent ($1290- $350= $940) by Saturday, then we'll forget the whole thing. Otherwise, he'll sue for the entire $3870. So I agree to that, over the phone, and I'm supposed to meet him Saturday with $940.

    I'm really not sure if I do owe him that money or not, and I don't want to pay him. But I also don't want to get sued (though at this point, I'm starting to get so stressed about it that I don't care). Should I consult an attorney? I live in NY, the place is in NJ, should I consult an attorney there? Do you think he can sue and win? Should I just give him the $940 this weekend and move on? Should I call him and tell him I'm not giving it to him and wait to see if he sues me? Or should I just not show up on Saturday, and wait to see if he sues me?

    I understand that any advice given on this site is not expert legal advice, but is, in fact, just an opinion.


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    Featured Member lunchbox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    You are defaulting on a contract that has no provisions for defaulting. I don't know about NJ, but you wouldn't be liable for anymore than what you have already payed in TX.

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    Senior Member DanMorris95156's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    I am not an attorney - look for a landlord/renter rights council or free law clinic where you live - I suspect the worst thing that can happen is that 1) - the landlord sues and you lose (in CA I believe that you would be lible until the landlord re-rented because he had an opportunity cost - although he might have to prove that since you never took possession -

    A more agressive position would be to counter sue him for the $350 - since the recission was within hours and not days - and....you hadn't fulfilled the deposit terms, never had keys, etc.

    Personally, I wouldn't pay him. I would seek a free legal clinic - receive proper legal advice - the
    $350 should be enough compensation for his lost day or two between rents.

    Dan
    Daniel D. Morris, CPA
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    you're into 'verbal agreement' territory because of the phone conversations - which could go either way in a small claims court depending on the mood of the judge. Had you not verbally agreed to paying the $1290 you probably could have walked away. On the flip side, the existance of a 'verbal agreement' makes it essentially impossible for the landlord to collect the $3700 total (although it doesn't stop him from initiating a lawsuit).

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    ^^I was thinking that.

    look for a landlord/renter rights council or free law clinic where you live
    Can I find that in the yellow pages?

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Also, should I call the guy and tell him I'm not coming on Saturday and that I won't give him the money? Or should I just not show up? I've definitely decided that I'm not going to give him that money without a fight.

    Side note: OMG! I've reached 500 posts. Yay! I just noticed that as I'm typing. I guess this one will be 501.

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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    You need legal advice. What you signed is a contract. I'm not sure if the document you signed qualifies as a lease in New York. I don't know, but it has all of the elements of agreement and consideration in that sheet of paper. My view. You may have a right to rescind a real estate lease in writing within a brief time limit. The time limit is usually 48 to 72 hours, so if you are certain you don't want this deal, get a letter rescinding the deal out ASAP. You need advice about New York real estate law on apartment leases very quickly here. move quick is my advice to you to (1) get legal advice (2) get the letter out enforcing your rights as a consumer. As New York has limited living space available, and alot of demand for space, they take apartment leases very seriously. In Oklahoma City the same space might only be $400 a month with half a month as security deposit. Example: Horse stealing may still be a hanging offense in Texas, and welching on a lease contract in New York might be a hanging offense there but not so much in Texas.

    Bottom line. This should be considered a consumer matter, and in many states, the law allows consumers to make mistakes and rescind their deals IN WRITING. Move quickly.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    ^^ yup exactly on the professional legal advice. The fact that you and the (prospective) landlord came to a 'verbal agreement' rescinding the terms of the original lease agreement in exchange for the total payment of $1290 only complicates matters even more. New York law could go either way on this depending on whether or not the 'verbal agreement' is considered to be legally valid. If the verbal agreement IS legally valid, then the landlord can sue you for the $900 or whatever balance between what you paid so far and the $1290 verbally agreed on. If the verbal agreement ISN'T legally valid, then the landlord can attempt to sue you for the $3870 in lease agreement front money PLUS an additional $1290 for every month that the apartment goes unrented (up until the term limit of the lease).

    My gut feeling here is that paying the landlord the remaining $940 that you already verbally agreed you would do will save you money and headaches in the long run. If you're not comfortable doing that, then see a lawyer and get official written notices sent out today for overnight delivery to the landlord.

  9. #9
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Agreed that you need legal advice. Most states have landlord/tenant laws that go beyond what contracting parties might agree to.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Agreed with everyone that you need legal advice IF he actually does sue you. I would be willing to bet (and I am not a betting person) that he won't. Residential tenancy agreements are different than other kinds of agreements, and what he can collect from you is minimal.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Featured Member lunchbox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    I've done a little research. He is clearly breaking NJ law which states you cannot collect more than 1.5 months rent in security deposits+prepaid rent (last months).

    http://ruoffcampus.rutgers.edu/guide/deposits.asp
    Your landlord is prevented from taking more than 1 1/2 month's rent as security or advanced rent. If your landlord is asking for the last month's rent in addition to what s/he is calling the "security deposit", the last month's rent must be included in the calculation of the 1 1/2 month's rent limit.
    He's facing a potential class action lawsuit, if he didn't know this, he may not be aware of other laws regarding the handling of security deposits. Did he give you any information pertaining to a license?

    I would kindly ask for my $350 and a letter of no fault, obligation, whatever to just forget about the whole thing. He cannot hold you to an illegal contract, and he can't legally profit from said contract. Maybe slide a little NJ rental info under everyone's door to make sure he is adhering to the law by treating security deposits/advanced rent properly.

    http://www.lsnjlaw.org/english/place...home/index.cfm
    good NJ help

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    Veteran Member Phedre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    I don't know the laws there... but in the mortgage world it is similar to signing a contract and giving a deposit on it until final payment is made. If you renig on the agreement then they get to keep the deposit.... nothing more. Since he accepted a $350 deposit I don't think he'd have a leg to stand on in requestion more when the transaction was recinded within a matter of hours.
    Phedre
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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    You need to consult an attorney...specifically one who specializes in landlord/tenant law in NEW JERSEY...not NY.

    I am willing to bet that the landlord will not sue you, either...however, if there is a way to renege on that contract, the lawyer will know. The laws are hugely in the tenants favor and landlords know that...but, it'll cost money. Call a lawyer TODAY...pay the $50-100 consult fee and see what will happen. For a small fee, the lawyer may be able to look at that original contract and find a loophole, effectively making the contract null and void. Make sure you take a copy of the signed contract with you. And, just remember...just because you signed a contract does not make it valid if something in it is against state/county/city laws and regulations.

    BTW...if he had 2 renters wanting the apartment in the THREE DAYS that you took to call him back...he'll have no problem renting the place out.

    Go see a lawyer.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Quote Originally Posted by greggy
    After the entire deposit would be paid of, then we would sign the lease for the apartment and get the keys.
    I just realized something...I just saw this. You essentially got a RECEIPT from the landlord...you did not sign a LEASE. The apartment is still not leased out. That's like putting earnest money on a house. Just because you put earnest money down doesn't mean you now own the house. If you would have signed a LEASE, THAT would have been the contract because you would have accepted the terms and the keys. You did neither.

    That may be your loophole...but go to a lawyer.

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox
    I've done a little research. He is clearly breaking NJ law which states you cannot collect more than 1.5 months rent in security deposits+prepaid rent (last months).

    http://ruoffcampus.rutgers.edu/guide/deposits.asp

    He's facing a potential class action lawsuit, if he didn't know this, he may not be aware of other laws regarding the handling of security deposits. Did he give you any information pertaining to a license?

    I would kindly ask for my $350 and a letter of no fault, obligation, whatever to just forget about the whole thing. He cannot hold you to an illegal contract, and he can't legally profit from said contract. Maybe slide a little NJ rental info under everyone's door to make sure he is adhering to the law by treating security deposits/advanced rent properly.

    http://www.lsnjlaw.org/english/place...home/index.cfm
    good NJ help
    Thanks for the info, lunchbox. I didn't know that at all.

    Yes, Venus, it basically is a receipt showing the balance due and when it's due by. He called it a receipt the whole time; I don't know why he wrote "lease agreement" on top of it. He even showed me the lease that I would sign once the entire deposit would be paid. The apartment, in no way, was mine.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    It would be a "legal" document if it was labeled a "Lease Agreement Addendum". But, being that it says, upon completion of the payments, the Lease will be signed, you should not be, in any way, bound to that agreement. What I would take that to mean is this: if you pay the full amount, then you would sign the lease and the place would be yours. If you didn't complete the agreement, then the lease would not be signed and you would forfeit the apartment.

    You should still have an attorney draft a "nice" letter...but I really do not think you have anything to worry about.

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    It would be a "legal" document if it was labeled a "Lease Agreement Addendum". But, being that it says, upon completion of the payments, the Lease will be signed, you should not be, in any way, bound to that agreement.
    He wrote "Lease Agreement" on top of it. And this is what worries me: it says, "lease begins immediately...", but I specifically asked him if the lease was starting with this agreement and he said, "No, the lease will be signed and you will get the keys once the total amount has been paid. This is just a payment agreement for the deposit."

    In the OP, I wrote out exactly what is written on the paper, word for word. But what is on the paper doesn't really match what he told me, does it?

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Quote Originally Posted by greggy
    He wrote "Lease Agreement" on top of it. And this is what worries me: it says, "lease begins immediately...", but I specifically asked him if the lease was starting with this agreement and he said, "No, the lease will be signed and you will get the keys once the total amount has been paid. This is just a payment agreement for the deposit."
    Again, you really need to get an attorney's opinion, however, it says LEASE AGREEMENT on it...but it's not. It's not because it's not a lease. You did not get keys. You do not have legal access to that apartment.

    Just because someone writes Lease Agreement on the top of a paper doesn't make it so. What you signed was an ADDENDUM...but most addendums are INVALID without a signed lease to go with it. Had you signed the actual lease and then signed the addendum, then you may have an issue. But, what you signed said that when the money was paid you would sign the lease. That's also inferring that if the money is NOT paid, you will not sign the lease or have legal access to the property.

    You really need to go talk with an attorney, but I really think that what you signed is just a piece of paper...that has no value or legal grounds.

    And, just for the next time...never sign a legal document without having a lawyer look it over and approve it. I had my boss look over my lease (years ago) and made so many changes to the lease that it wasn't the original lease anymore. A lot of landlords these days take "generic" leases (you know, download the form from the computer) and think it's valid. Again, if the lease violates local/city/state laws, then it's not valid...but can be a headache.

    Don't sign a legal doc unless you've had a lawyer approve of it.

    And, take your current situation to a consult and make sure that that paper really is just junk.

    Good luck and let me know what happens.

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Thanks for the advice. I'll keep you updated.

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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    So, here's a semi-update:

    A friend of mine recommended a lawyer in NY for me to speak to who could refer me to a lawyer in NJ if necessary. I spoke to the NY lawyer on Friday, and it was just comforting to speak to him. He told me that it doesn't sound like I'd owe him (the landlord) anything, but that I should fax the paper over so that he (the lawyer) could take a look at it. The lawyer also told me to call the landlord and tell him that I won't be meeting him on Saturday, and that I was having a lawyer look over everything and I'd get back to him on Monday.

    Well, the landlord was like, "Well, I've spoken to my attorney and he says that I could get everything if I sue..." such and such; it really just sounded like he was trying to scare me. But I wouldn't budge. I just said, "Ok, then, it's better to let a judge decide anyway." So he asked me for my lawyers phone number, and I wouldn't give it to him because I wasn't sure if I was going to end up working with this guy (since he's in NY).

    Can you believe the landlord called my BF's parents on Sunday night, yelling at them about how we signed a lease, because he wrote lease agreement on top, and that we didn't call him for 8 days and he's been holding the apartment for that length of time, so we owe him one month's rent. Now I'm pissed.

    He didn't call my mom, and I'm not surprised. One can tell that my BF is young, and relatively immature, and that his parents probably rescue him from everything. I don't give off that impression at all, and I'm sure the landlord has picked up, through previous conversations with me about having a guarantor, that my mom stays out of my mess. Obviously, he wouldn't get anything if he called her except being hung up on.

    I swear, if this guy turned around and called my mother, I would sue him myself. Now I know he's a creep. I didn't mention to anyone before, besides my BF, that the guy had suggested at one point, when I was trying to get out of the deal, that I do some OTC work in exchange for reduced rent. I don't know if he meant just LD's or sex, but I quickly told him that it was not an option before he went into details.

    So, that's what is going on now. I need to fax that paper over to the lawyer today and then wait.

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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Create a firewall in your life from your housing arrangement, work, and personal family relationships. I know in NY (especially when you are starting out) that many apartment units are neighbrohood owned by older people in the neighborhood. It's the same in DT Chicago area. If possible, your landlord should not know about your family or who your family is. Tell them your're from Wisconsin. (Just kidding but ...)

    The landlord is using your personal information to pressure you. Does he really have that much trouble renting his units in the housing market in New York? Whats wrong with the apartment he's renting that he "entraps" tenants to live in them?

    If he did not have inside information about your family and boy friends family, the situation on the "entrapment lease" would be about over. As it is, the situation remains a large annoyance for you. Who needs these hassles in life?

  22. #22
    Sitri
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Plus, even if your were to be sued, the amount awarded would be the damages. In this case he indicated that he has 2 people waiting in the wings. So, no damages. In fact, he needs the release because if he rents it out and you came up with the deposit, there may be damages on your part.

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    Featured Member scorpio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    holy crap! He basically propositioned you for sex in exchange for getting you out of a lease?! that is CRIMINAL! Go to your attorney right now and tell him this, this jackass is now liable for civil and criminal damages!

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Yes, I would definitely tell your lawyer about his sexual proposition. Doesn't matter if he was "just joking". It's called sexual harassment and it's a serious accusation.

    You need to decide if you are going to allow the lawyer to represent you. If this asshole keeps calling you or your boyfriend's family, then you can also tell him that you are going to go to the police and file harassment charges on top of the sexual harassment charges.

    And, just to reassure you...just because someone writes something on paper, does not make it legal. As I've said before, him writing Lease Agreement on a piece of paper did not make you liable for the lease. He did not allow you to take the keys...he did not give you a piece of paper that tells people that you have legal rights to be on the property. He gave you an addendum and without a signed lease, it's no good. If you had signed the actual lease and then signed the addendum, then you'd be out of luck...but you didn't so you aren't. heh

    Just relax and make sure you tell your lawyer everything. EVERYTHING. The more ammunition he has against this guy the better your situation is in dealing with him.

    And, um, someone correct me if I am mistaken, but unless a parent co-signs on the lease, it is illegal for him to contact the parents demanding money. If his parents did not co-sign, him contacting them could get him in more trouble...make sure you tell your lawyer about that, as well.

    Keep me updated.

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    Veteran Member azcustomer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can he sue and win? (really long)

    Excellent posts - in ANY significant contract there is a recision period which protects the buyer which is written into state law. I think in AZ it's 3 days for any contract involving R/E. You would be able to get all your money back here - the "receipt" didn't indicate any type of processing fee - so all the monies would be fully refundable.

    If you don't want to get a lawyer - find a real estate school and hang out to ask one of the teachers. The answer to your question is probably on the state RE license exam - any bookish RE agent types (you know, the ones who actually remember this stuff?) will be able to help you.

    You should have recinded in writing, but document the events and send it via registered mail. Get a lawyer. It's NY - landlords always try to squeeze you for a little more.


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