anyone seen this German film? Very well made and powerful.
anyone seen this German film? Very well made and powerful.





Was on it UK, (sub titled), a few weeks ago.
Yep, and agree it was good. One of the few things I've recently bothered to watch on our ever dumbing down TV.
Phil.

I agree: it was great. It's rare to see a based-in-fact film that hasn't been dramatized or fictionalized in any way. This was truly just an attempt at a realistic portrayal of the final hours of the Third Reich. Apparently they took painstaking efforts to recreate the bunker just exactly as it had been.
Favorite part: when Frau Himmler killed all of her children rather than see then grow up in a world with no Third Reich. But escaped herself, with her husband, and went on with her life. Right...
Also, it gave me an excuse to teach my husband a song my mother sang to us when I was little (sung to the tune of the "Colonel Bogey March"):
Hitler, he only had one ball.
Goering had two but very small.
Himmler had something similar.
And Dr. Goebbels had no balls at all.
Yes, I have seen it. Another good movie is Das Boot.
I just watched this 2 days ago. So interesting. The kids nazis broke my heart. Talk about brainwashing!
I watched this move last year. It was shown at the independent cinemas, many screenings took place on the date of Hitler's birthday. I thought it was an excellent movie, well cast, well performed and left you with mixed emotions about how the Nazis were as people.
This is the only movie I have ever watched that has humanised Nazis. When I say this, this doesn't mean that I excuse the atrocities they committed nor do I have a shred of respect for their actions, but it reinforces the fact that they had feelings and emotions too. Very easy to think otherwise considering what they did.
You are the envy
of all parallel lines that
dream of curves and convergence
- Sara Bailey: Sieve of Words





If you read Albert Speer's memoirs, you'll find he intended to talk Frau Goebbels out of killing her children, but her husband suspected his intent and would not leave them alone together.Originally Posted by siena_b
Phil.





Himmler took cyanide--not to in any way lessen the monstrous nature of killing your own children...Originally Posted by Ms. Slut
What happened to Frau Himmler, I don't recall reading.
Also, if you liked this one, or Das Boot, there is a movie called Stalingrad (made I believe by the same producers as Das Boot) which portrays the suffering of the Germans in this brutal battle quite accurately.
Of course, they invaded Russia in the first place, but they were in so many cases not monsters by choice or in their own cruel nature, just pawns of monsters.
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________





I will have to rent this one weekend.
One of woman's cardinal rule: Body parts can be fake,everything else has to be real.
一个女人的枢机规则:肢体可以伪造,一切必须真实.
中国大CHINESE BIG BOOBS!!!中国大

Actually, the feelings and emotions of the Nazis were the reason they came up with the killing factories at the concentration camps. Shooting innocent men, women, and little children in the head, the predominant method of extermination, just because they were Jews was very difficult on the Nazi SS soldiers (as you can imagine). A few sadists enjoyed killing people, but by and large they didn't. Some Nazi soldiers cracked up and started shooting wildly and some killed themselves because of what they had done.Originally Posted by Malibu
In Babi Yar, for instance, Nazi and Ukrainian soldiers exterminated nearly 34,000 Jews in only 2 days. They were killed by a gunshot to the neck or head.
So as a more humane way of eliminating the Jews (humane for the Nazis) the Nazis came up with the gas chambers. Herding Jews into the gas chamber and carrying out dead bodies (up to 13,000 per day at Auschwitz) was a lot easier on the Nazi soldiers shooting the Jews.
So yeah, they had feelings and emotions all right.
http://history1900s.about.com/librar...t/aa080799.htm
In small groups of ten, the Jews were taken along the edge of the ravine. One of the very few survivors remembers she "looked down and her head swam, she seemed to be so high up. Beneath her was a sea of bodies covered in blood."9
Once the Jews were lined up, the Nazis used a machine-gun to shoot them. When shot, they fell into the ravine. Then the next then were brought along the edge and shot.
According to the Einsatzgruppe Operational Situation Report No. 101, 33,771 Jews were killed at Babi Yar on September 29 and 30.10 But this was not the end of the killing at Babi Yar.
Originally Posted by Malibu
This is important, because they were not supernatural monsters but human beings. The last commander of Auschwitz was said to be a wonderful father!!! That is just bizarre to me.
We need to understand how a democratic, educated, and liberal Germany turned into a nation of "jew cookers."
It is too easy to write off "oh there was this crew of monsters" - and yes - they did some horrible shit. But they were not monsters. They were human beings and this is a warning to us all what democratic countries can turn into over a few years if we let our guard down.





All very informative, but the Himmler children didn't kill anyone, and I'm sure they had feelings and emotions, especially when their mom murdered them.
Give Malibu a break, man--she clearly wasn't defending Nazis or Nazism.
What happened to the Jews was tragic and terrible beyond anything in history, no one is questioning that here.
But understanding what kind of people brought it about, how they met their end, and the story of the people who were too weak to perceive clearly how badly they were mistaken, in blindly following their husbands and lovers into madness and death, does not make you a bad person.
Nor does it mean you think Hitler or Himmler, et al, were actually just alright guys who got a little carried away.
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________
^^^ I didn't read anyone giving Malibu grief. They all sounded like they were agreeing with her/him.
Downfall is one of my favorite movies... Bruno Ganz should have won an award for that performance.





Originally Posted by Malibu
Originally Posted by dudeski
It's too easy to write off the Hitler's of this world as insane psychopaths. Hitler was a consumate politician that for many years dominated the European political scene because he has the willpower and vision to achieve his objectives. Until 1938 he had the support of the overwhelming part of the German nation, and with reason - he had made them the dominant nation on the continent. I wonder what history would have made of Hitler had he stopped after assimilating Czechoslovakia into the German sphere of influence?Originally Posted by Deogol
(I grant you that the persecution of Jews, Gipsies, homosexuals, was already ongoing, and that small scale killings were going on at Dachau, etc. However, this was not widely known in the late 30's).
[And yes, I've been to Dachau concentration camp - and I'll never forget it. The German friend that took me said, 'not even the birds sing there', and he was dead right. I found it a shattering experience.]
Instead Hitler's meglomania lead him to spark off the Second World War. There were two very different standards applied from the start. The atrocities started in the East straight away, (Slav's were untermensch), but took longer to start in western Europe. As an example, the Scandinavians were regarded as Aryan in origin, so avoided the worst of the Nazi excesses in consequence.
The real mass killings didn't start until the tide started to turn against Germany. It wasn't only Germans that were involved in the killing - Hitler's Germany made effective use of religous and ethnic hatred; the Balkans in particular were a butcher's shambles with Serbs, Croats, Moslems all joining in the barbarity.
There will always be a certain number of pyschopaths in society, but the scale of killing was such that pyshcopaths alone could not have accomplished it. It relied on apparently decent Germans, (and French, Bulgarians, Ukranians, Hungarians, etc), being willing to kill, often in an exceptionally brutal manner.
To recognise the reasons behind the "success" of the Hitlers of this world, we must understand they were highly capable individuals who used their great gifts to achieved perverted ends.
And to recognise how ordinary men became involved in genocide, we have to understand how they became conditioned to participate in mass murder. One of the most pertubing things for me personally is how readily ordinary people were persuaded to take place in attrocities.
Phil.
WWII I think was due in large part to circumstance.... A lot of unfortunate things happening over time.
If I had to place blame anywhere (and I do!) it would have to be Britain and France (but hey, after the mess over the winter, they still have no idea how to run things)!
The course of events that led Germany into the start of WWII took place over a period of 20 years. Year after year they went about doing what they set out to do. It all started with the Treaty of Versaii (sp?). After getting slapped HARSHLY, they got pissed off and went about making amends.
The US didn't want to get involved at all (and I don't blame them). That crap was a long way away and largely irrelevant. But I digress...
If GB (or anyone else for that matter) had bothered to intervine earlier, the whole thing would likely have been avoided. Over that time, Germany went from nothing to being a superpower.
It took the combined might of the US, Canada, Britain and the USSR to stop. Would have been easier to deal with earlier.
Of course, the world as it stands today can be largly traced back to that war. If it hadn't happened, I'm not sure I would even be here!!
Whoever described the war by the phrase 'For six years the world went mad', hit the nail dead on the head!
I think how it happened is that a lot of people had plausible deniability for their own hearts.
"Hey, I am not killing Jews - I am simply laying down rail road track."
Another might say "I am not killing Jews, I just know where they live."
Of course there are brutes out there that might be willing to beat up on Jews but they wouldn't have the stones to actually kill them.
What is interesting is that a small group of people were able to organize this large group of people who could tell themselves "It's not my fault - I never killed one single Jew" into a super killing machine.
I think this went even as far as the concentration camps where there were special groups within the SS that actually did the killing. The other guards could tell themselves - "I never really pulled the trigger on anyone unless they were trying to escape from the prison!"
They were able to set up this onion ring of complacency of brick layers who can say "Yea, I built a prison but it is not my fault who they put in there" on the outside to finally a core level of trouble makers who dropped the Zyklon B into the bath house.
Of course, there are many more facets to the whole thing. It was a genius peice of insanity that was constructed.
My guess is that many who witnessed what went on simply went insane...
I watched a 1 hr show on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, spearheaded by the Dowska Organizacja Bojowa (Jewish Fighting Organization).
After seeing that, I didn't sleep at all that night! I had nightmares that were, to say the least, disturbing![]()





This was one of the best replies I have read in 3 1/2 years as a member here...Originally Posted by Phil-W
I have read almost every book I could get my hands on concerning World War II, mostly dealing with purely military matters, but very many with this subject as well.
The concensus seems to be that within each of us dwells a monster...
Hitler and his associates were very adept at unleashing the monsters in the people they dominated, from all the various nationalities they had conquered.
What made this genocide so appalling and effective was the utilization of industrial methods.
Other genocidal episodes abound in human history, some of them rivalling or possibly even exceeding this when relative population figures are taken into consideration--the slaughter perpetrated by Tamurlane being but one example equally or possibly more horrifying.
What also makes this genocide so devastating to behold is the fact that it happened so recently. Not only because it's not buried in history, with the witnesses still walking and talking, but because the human race, we would like to believe, has advanced and become more reasonable--more 'civilized'.
Apparently we still have a ways to go...
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________
Let's not forgot that Hitler was not the only madman. Morell also had a lot to do with his mental health at that time.
* Bosnia-Herzegovina: 1992-1995 - 200,000 Deaths
* Rwanda: 1994 - 800,000 Deaths
* Pol Pot in Cambodia: 1975-1979 - 2,000,000 Deaths
* Nazi Holocaust: 1938-1945 - 6,000,000 Deaths
* Rape of Nanking: 1937-1938 - 300,000 Deaths
* Stalin's Forced Famine: 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths
* Armenians in Turkey: 1915-1918 - 1,500,000 Deaths
Last edited by exotisch23; 04-23-2006 at 11:11 PM.





Yes, and that's only within the last century.
And even our own nation has a less than perfect record, when you consider that the gigantic herds of buffalo were hunted and slaughtered deliberately, as a means of starving the tribes who used them as their principle means of subsistence.
'Trail of Tears' ring a bell? Not something to be proud of...
There were many factors (especially disease--but they got some revenge with a very effective STD) involved in the depopulation of native Americans, but to ignore the genocidal actions and policies which greatly aided the process is to whitewash history.
I don't suggest that Hitler was no worse than this, so save yourself the trouble if you feel compelled to jump on that. Of course he was worse.
The point I am making is that it seems to be an ugly but incredibly persistent facet of human nature, this desire to eradicate entire portions of the species.
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________
For all the talk about Nazi Germany, you don't really hear much at all about the eradication of the Native North Americans.
But we still see the effects today. The Toronto Star did a series of reports in conditions on some of the reserves in Northern Ontario. Absolutley appalling!
The level of 'whitewashing' (to quote DJoser) is something...





I said in an earlier post I'd been to Dachau concentration camp. (Not an experience I'll ever forget).Originally Posted by Djoser
They have gas chambers there - nothing on the scale of Auschwitz - but over 2,200 people still died there. When I visited them, one of the group with me was a manager with wide experience of manufacturing. He looked around then said "efficient material movement".
When I thought about it, I realised what he meant. The gas chambers were laid out such that those being gassed took off their clothes close to the area where the clothes would be sorted and parcelled up for despatch. They then walked a short distance to the gas chamber where they were killed. It was then a short distance to the crematoria, where their bodies were burnt. There were trolleys, etc., to make moving the bodies easier.
A group of people had sat down and carefully designed an efficient way of killing people, processing their possessions and disposing of the bodies.
A small team of people must have spent several weeks deciding on the best layout, drawn up blue prints, produced specifications, placed the contracts and presumably seen the work was completed to the appropriate standard.
What sort of mentality does it take to sit down and and carefully plan the means of killing several thouand people?
Phil.
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