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Thread: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    For the first time, Immigration and Customs Enforcement recently put together co-ordinated busts of every single facility operated by a particular company making pallets in something like 36 different states. Not only were somewhere around 50% of the company's employees found to be illegal aliens, thus rounded up and given a free one way trip to Mexico City, but company executives were charged with felony 'aiding and abetting' charges potentially involving huge fines and long jail terms.

    This, and other recent high profile illegal alien busts, has kicked off a round of fear reactions among illegal aliens working at other types of jobs that if they show up for work they could be next on the ICE bust list.



    (snip)"Len Mills, executive vice president of Associated General Contractors of South Florida, estimated at least 50 percent of workers on construction jobs in the region had not shown up for work. (snip)

    Rumors of random sweeps were rampant from coast to coast Friday, prompting many immigrants to stay home from work, take their children out of school and avoid church. Their absences added to immigrants' fears, as some thought their friends and co-workers had been arrested."(snip)

    This has in turn trickled down to some employers of illegal aliens realizing that their ability to meet contractual time and budget price commitments is actually dependent on workers who could disappear tomorrow.

    (snip)Associated General Contractors of South Florida VP Len Mills again ..
    "This is costing millions of dollars a day, and I don't know who is going to pay for it," he said."(snip)

    This is obviously part of an organized program by ICE and other federal agencies to vastly increase the 'profile' of illegal alien bust efforts ...



    (snip)"By increasing the frequency and severity of punishment for employers, ICE and the Department of Homeland Security are hoping to offset the financial incentive [for the would-be employer of illegal immigrants - sic] of hiring workers outside the legal tax and benefit systems. ICE and DHS have clearly realized that one of the most important ways to curtail illegal immigration is to eliminate the reward of a stable, profitable job [for the would-be illegal immigrant - sic]. Reducing the financial incentive is understood to be an essential key to reducing illegal immigration."(snip)


    Things could get even more interesting this coming monday, where huge illegal alien protests are scheduled in many American cities ...

    "Many wondered whether the rumors [of illegal alien arrests - sic] would deter people from national immigration protests planned for Monday.

    The National Immigration Law Center called on organizations nationwide to sign a petition urging ICE to assure the public it won't make any immigration arrests during the protests.

    The agency said its policy is not to discuss potential operations. "ICE will continue to operate as it does every day of the year," Boyd said."


    Bottom line would appear to be that while the US congress continues to bicker over illegal alien workers and the border issue, that ICE is pursuing a very effective policy aimed squarely at the financial equiation of companies choosing to employ illegal aliens. If would-be employers of below market wage illegal aliens persist, they face not only the potential criminal penalties, but much more importantly they face the unexpected major disruption of their own business activities, with major consequences to future business/profits due to failures to deliver on time and/or failures to deliver at low prices while still turning a profit, when their illegal alien workers are busted or simply don't show up for fear of being busted.

    This is expected to directly translate into higher future grocery bills, higher future construction costs, higher costs of 'low technology' products and services which have traditionally relied on illegal alien cheap labor to keep prices down.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-30-2006 at 07:53 AM.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Keep prices down. Ha! There is a person between prices and cost. Market decides prices. Choosing illegals brings costs of production down. The person between these gets something called profit.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Keep prices down. Ha! There is a person between prices and cost. Market decides prices. Choosing illegals brings costs of production down. The person between these gets something called profit.
    Oh absolutely ! But if you replace a below minimum/prevailing wage pay rate with zero benefits labor cost with a minimum/prevailing wage + employer SSI/medicare tax + state Unemployment/Workmen's Comp premium labor cost, in a large number of industries there won't be any remaining profit at current market prices - I'm thinking produce pickers or the pallet company that was recently busted for starters.

    Thus two things can happen from that point forward ... a shortage of the product (as employers decide to stop operating at a loss), or higher prices for the product (as employers raise prices to cover their increased costs of production). In either case, low cost foreign imports will attempt to quickly move in and breach the gap - resulting in the loss of jobs for illegal aliens in America with no gain of 'legal' American jobs either (the jobs will be transplanted offshore - along with employer profits and US tax revenue).

    Obviously the construction industry is a different story, since it isn't practical to import a new house or new shopping center in the same way one can import produce or pallets.

    But the two things can happen scenario does apply for 'service industries' traditionally manned by illegal aliens i.e. landscapers, dog walkers etc. In these areas, either prices must go up enough to cover 'legal' minimum/prevailing wage + SSI/medicare + comp/unemployment labor costs, or the services go away.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-30-2006 at 08:15 AM.

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    Featured Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Melonie: Bottom line would appear to be that while the US congress continues to bicker over illegal alien workers and the border issue, that ICE is pursuing a very effective policy aimed squarely at the financial equiation of companies choosing to employ illegal aliens. If would-be employers of below market wage illegal aliens persist, they face not only the potential criminal penalties, but much more importantly they face the unexpected major disruption of their own business activities, with major consequences to future business/profits due to failures to deliver on time and/or failures to deliver at low prices while still turning a profit, when their illegal alien workers are busted or simply don't show up for fear of being busted.

    This is expected to directly translate into higher future grocery bills, higher future construction costs, higher costs of 'low technology' products and services which have traditionally relied on illegal alien cheap labor to keep prices down.
    ( I post it like this sometimes because I have problems with the quote button)

    I do not agree with this. The only way it would mean higher prices is to assume that companies are passing along the savings to the consumer. They are not always passing it along.

    For example I used to live in the Largest RV manufacturing town in Indiana. Slowly more and more illegal aliens were coming into town. The RV plants were advertising in Mexico. More and more plants were hiring illegals but the price of RVs never went down. At the time the plant was hiring legal workers for around $10 an hour. They hired illegals for around $5 an hour. The price of their products never went down. Their profits went up. If they decreased the price of their product it would send warning signals. It was all done under the table. But when people started moving out, the economy of the town went bust, and most store signs were in Spanish the INS came in. That bankrupt many of the RV plants there. Why? Not because of the increase in legal wages but because it disrupted their production lines. By that time not many people want to work for them anymore and had left the town.

    These companies that are doing this will not operate at a loss by hiring legal workers. Their profits will just go down. This kind of business should never have been allowed to begin with. The companies are shooting themselves in the foot. Many Americans wont do business with companies that out source customer service, their own jobs where they have to learn spanish to talk to co-workers, etc. The work enviroment is poor and the service is terrible.

    Ask Aol:

    AOL lost 2.7 million subscribers last year, and with each of them went multiple AIM identities.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/...eb.0430aol.php

    Aol started outsourcing it's customer service a few years ago. Even though this article points to differant things, at work I hear compaints about AOL all the time. They cant understand the customer service reps, the reps dont listen at all, and then to top it off they get a run around when trying to cancel.

    The cost for Aol service has never went down. Even though they are savings millions out sourcing.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    if you re-read your own post about the Elkhart RV companies, you'll find that it pretty much matches up with what I said. When the RV business was booming, fed by excellent profits due to an 'average' sale price for the RV's and an illegally low labor cost, I used to see the RV managers all the time in nearby clubs. However, when the INS started busting their illegally low priced $5 per hour workforce, and the RV companies had to start paying $10 prevailing wage plus SSI plus medicare plus comp plus unemployment = $16+ total per hour labor cost for a legal workforce, the 'average' sale price of RV's didn't create enough profit for the Indiana RV companies to remain viable anymore.

    Since the existance of other RV companies in other states with lower prevailing wage rates / comp & unemployment costs / fewer illegal alien busts meant they were shipping RV's into the market at an 'average' price, the Indiana RV companies couldn't float a price increase. Result ... poof, the Indiana RV companies are out of business because they were not going to continue operating at a loss. But consider the possibilities if the INS were to bust EVERY US RV maker employing illegal workers, such that EVERY US RV maker had to employ legal US residents and pay SSI + medicare + comp + unemployment premiums on these workers. Now all of a sudden no US RV maker can turn a profit at the 'average' price. So the choices become ...
    door #1 - attempt to raise prices to restore a profit margin employing US workers
    door #2 - start shipping in RV's assembled in Mexico instead of the USA
    door #3 - lock the doors, stop losing money, and reinvest in something profitable

    you'll note that of the RV company options only door #1 is 'neutral' ... but probably can't actually be pulled off in the real world economy. Door #2 means moving to Mexico and door #3 means facing an unknown future.

    from the standpoint of would-be American RV buyers, this means either
    door #1 - pay more money for the same RV
    door #2 - pay the same price but see both assembly and management jobs tranplanted to Mexico (along with former US corporate profits and tax revenues - eventually raising the RV buyer's taxes to compensate for the loss)
    door #3 - buy something besides the RV they wanted since there aren't any available

    you'll note that none of the three RV buyer scenarios benefits the RV buyer in any way ! ---- well, there are those who argue that an INS crackdown would in fact save the would-be RV buyer a significant amount of future tax money IF the illegal alien family moves out of / is removed from his area after the RV plant closes down.

    The flip side argument of course is that if the illegal alien family stays where they are, but is unable to find work to replace the RV assembly job, they will wind up using / collecting even more social welfare benefits thus increasing local tax rates anyhow - that the illegal alien family may resort to crime further increasing local tax rates and increasing insurance premiums for everyone living in the area - that the illegal alien family may start popping out US citizen kids to guarantee they can't be thrown out of the USA, thus collecting even more social welfare benefits and further increasing local tax rates.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-30-2006 at 04:42 PM.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp
    But when people started moving out, the economy of the town went bust, and most store signs were in Spanish the INS came in. That bankrupt many of the RV plants there. Why? Not because of the increase in legal wages but because it disrupted their production lines. By that time not many people want to work for them anymore and had left the town.



    Aol started outsourcing it's customer service a few years ago. Even though this article points to differant things, at work I hear compaints about AOL all the time. They cant understand the customer service reps, the reps dont listen at all, and then to top it off they get a run around when trying to cancel.

    The cost for Aol service has never went down. Even though they are savings millions out sourcing.
    I think Vamp is saying that their illegal activities backfired when they got caught and killed the smooth delivery of orders, which makes people go to another supplier, which drives down revenue stream, which destroys the rest of their bad reputation with potential employees, & makes them too radioactive to work for, forcing them to pay more to lure reluctant workers or go bankrupt working with a shoestring crew & a rep for missing delivery dates.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp
    Ask Aol:

    AOL lost 2.7 million subscribers last year, and with each of them went multiple AIM identities.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/...eb.0430aol.php

    Aol started outsourcing it's customer service a few years ago. Even though this article points to differant things, at work I hear compaints about AOL all the time. They cant understand the customer service reps, the reps dont listen at all, and then to top it off they get a run around when trying to cancel.

    The cost for Aol service has never went down. Even though they are savings millions out sourcing.
    FWIW, I've cancelled AOL several times with no problems. I hear complaints all the time, but that is because I used to work there

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    Veteran Member azcustomer's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Enforcement helps.

    Here in AZ - employers take advantage of workers' fear of retribution to keep wages artificially low. Now, the employers need to start worrying and reconsider their hiring practices.


    "Life is not about the number of breaths you take.
    It's about those moments which leave you breathless."

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    Featured Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Lunchbox

    I used to have aol for years. I got banned a few years back because people didn't like what I was saying. Ohh there is a shocker lol. When I called to find out what was going on all I got was some women in india reading me a script.

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    Featured Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by azcustomer
    Enforcement helps.

    Here in AZ - employers take advantage of workers' fear of retribution to keep wages artificially low. Now, the employers need to start worrying and reconsider their hiring practices.
    I agree completely. I also agree with Optimist. She got the point I was making.

    People are fend up with having to learn Spanish to work in America. They are sick of busting their ass to do a good job and watching illegals do half assed work that they have to fix. These kinds of points will never make it to main stream media.

    I like the idea of a temporary worker program. With all workers being legal they receive the same rights as American workers, are held to the same standard, contribute to the system, and are given a fair wage. Which in turn does not erode the economies of smaller towns.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    I like the idea of a temporary worker program. With all workers being legal they receive the same rights as American workers, are held to the same standard, contribute to the system, and are given a fair wage. Which in turn does not erode the economies of smaller towns.
    However, this is only likely to be the actual case if 'temporary workers' and their families are NOT eligible for social welfare benefits ... because if they are then the small town economy still gets ruined, but by skyrocketing taxes not by underpricing existing wage rates. The bottom 50% of all American taxpayers only pay something like 4% of total taxes collected, with American workers who earn less than $24-30k per year (varies by state and social welfare program eligibility/benefit levels) create a net drain on local economies by consuming far more dollars worth of benefits than they pay into the system via their own taxes.

    In most states, illegal alien workers are not eligible for all social welfare programs, and are scared to apply for benefits even if they ARE eligible under state law. In a few states, illegal aliens ARE eligible for all sorts of benefits under state law ... and not surprisingly these particularly generous states (CA, NY to name a couple) have very large numbers of illegal aliens residing in them !

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    Featured Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    I do not agree Melonie.

    Top 1% ($293,415<) pay 36.18% of all personal income taxes Top 5% ($120,846<) pay 55.45% of all personal income taxes Top 10% ($87,682<) pay 66.45% of all personal income taxes Top 25% ($52,965<) pay 83.54% of all personal income taxes Top 50% ($26,415<) pay 96% of all personal income taxes Bottom 50% (<$26,415) pay 4% of all personal income taxes


    The stats you are using only reflect personal income taxes. They do not reflect social security tax, sales tax, property tax ect. To say they are represent all taxes the government receives would be inaccurate.

    If you look at how the social security tax is determined it shows a differant picture.

    Social Security's Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) program limits the amount of earnings subject to taxation for a given year. The same annual limit also applies when those earnings are used in a benefit computation. This limit increases each year with increases in the national average wage index. We call this annual limit the contribution and benefit base. For earnings in 2006, this base is $94,200.

    The OASDI tax rate for wages paid in 2006 is set by statute at 6.2 percent for employees and employers, each. Thus, an individual with wages equal to or larger than $94,200 would contribute $5,840.40 to the OASDI program in 2006, and his or her employer would contribute the same amount. The OASDI tax rate for self-employment income in 2006 is 12.4 percent. (Tax rates of 1.45 percent for employees and employers, each, and 2.90 percent for self-employed persons, are applied to all earnings—without a taxable maximum—under Medicare's Hospital Insurance program.)
    http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/cbb.html

    Plainly stated anyone making more than $94,200 pays the exact same amount in social security taxes. The upper tax brackets are in reality paying a lower rate on their income level in social security. If you are self employed you pay even a higher rate than everyone if you fall below the $94,200 a year level.

    The reason people making less than $24,000 a year milk social programs is because they do not have access to insurance of any kind thru work. If this was extended to them it would eliminate the problem. If you are a temporary worker the same benefits should apply to you so that once again the system isnt milked.

    Hiring illegals destroys the economy of the town itself. By working under the table none of any of these taxes are contributed to nor state or local taxes. Yet their children go to school and use public services.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    The stats you are using only reflect personal income taxes. They do not reflect social security tax, sales tax, property tax ect. To say they are represent all taxes the government receives would be inaccurate.
    I didn't mean to say that this represented ALL taxes the gov't receives. Obviously, low wage earners who are working on the books pay 7.5 % SSI tax, and illegals working off the books still pay sales tax and gasoline road tax. What I said was that the amount of taxes being paid in by (on the books) low wage earners doesn't begin to cover the true cost of the benefits which are paid out to the same persons ... which is just as true for SSI taxes versus benefit checks, which is just as true of sales tax versus the cost of law enforcement / education / local emergency room visits.

    The 'tin foil hat' crowd would argue that the reason some people earning less than $24,000 per year milk social programs is that state and local gov't permit them to ! ... that state and local govt's provide levels of benefits which provide for a higher de-facto standard of living for people earning $24,000 per year and collecting benefits than can be achieved by the same people working harder / increasing skill levels thus earning $30,000+ per year instead of $24,000 but losing eligibility for social welfare benefits as a byproduct...

    If and when illegal aliens currently working under the table in the USA are 'legalized', and begin working above the table, the new costs to every state (well at least for states that bother to check the 'legality' of people currently applying for benefits ... but that's a whole 'nuther story) of providing social welfare benefits to these newly 'legalized' low wage earners (and their newly 'legalized' families) will vastly overshadow any increased tax revenues.

    Since sales taxes are paid by both legal and illegal 'consumers' alike, there will essentially be no increase in sales tax revenue if the newly legalized 'consumers' spend the same amount of money. Because progressive income tax rates, low income tax credits etc. are what they are, there will actually be very little increase in income tax revenue either if the majority of newly 'legalized' workers' on the books earnings are less than your $26,435 figure. And on the issue of SSI, at present many illegal aliens who are working under ficticious social security numbers pay in 7.5% SSI tax but do not collect benefits. If 'legalized', they will start collecting SSI benefits - the actual cost of which vastly exceeds the 7.5% of $24,000 or whatever per year they pay in.

    There is also an extremely good possibility that many of the higher paid illegal alien workers will discover that working 'on the books' is actually bad for their family budget. I'm thinking about costruction workers being paid say $15 an hour under the table, who would be paid say $20 an hour on the books if 'legalized', but then be subject to fed/state/local income tax, SSI+medicare tax etc. which reduces their after-tax pay rate back down to $13 an hour. In this case, that construction worker was financially better off working illegally - and certainly has the experience and mindset to continue to do so even if 'legalized' ! Of course, from the standpoint of the US gov't, a 'legalized' worker not being paid on the books appears to be unemployed, plus his family is eligible for wall to wall social welfare benefits based on the amount of officially reported income. Of course the only way we're really going to find out how such a scenario would play out is to 'legalize' the illegal alien first, thus letting the 'Genie out of the Bottle' before the degree of potential financial burden to other taxpayers is known. However if the above scenario were to develop, because of the potentially huge number of newly 'legalized' people who might choose to continue working under the table and commit welfare fraud, there's simply no way that state and local govt's would have the resources to investigate and prosecute. They can't even come close to doing that right now, let alone after adding several million newly 'legalized' potential welfare cheats to the system !.

    And this of course assumes that state/local gov'ts have the political will to even attempt to investigate and prosecute fraud in social welfare programs, considering that these newly 'legalized' residents would also be able to register their displeasure at local ballot boxes. This doesn't have to be based on wild speculation either - there is a large body of data available from European countries who 'let the Genie out of the bottle' in past years, who are now seeing huge effects in their gov't budgets, jail cell occupancy, business productivity, and social fabric (i.e. declining standard of living for their middle class). According to France's Jean LePen, unrestrained immigration into France is now costing the French gov't an additional $500 billion a year in social welfare benefits ... with the additional costs for additional law enforcement, lost business productivity etc. being over and above that.



    I don't want to go any deeper into the political side of this politico-economic point, but am merely trying to point out that the potential financial consequences of 'legalizing' America's currently illegal aliens are simply HUGE. Scaling up the French number for US immigrant levels would put the potential 'new' cost of providing social welfare benefits to newly 'legalized' immigrants at least equal to the entire 2005 US federal budget. Obviously, the American middle class taxpayer is going to directly bear the brunt of those financial consequences. Put very bluntly, if you are a middle class American earning say $50,000+ per year, are you ready to have your current income tax rates doubled in order to fund additional social welfare benefits for millions of newly 'legalized' immigrants or for 'temporary workers' who are eligible for social welfare benefits while they're in the USA ?
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-02-2006 at 03:59 AM.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    I'd like to add to Melonie's observations that we have to get rid of the law that makes the children of aliens born in America automatic citizens. It's not the 1800's. We're not an agrarian or an industrial society anymore. Therefore, we can't use a glut of new slave wage workers. We're importing Mexico's problems and they reap the rewards in terms of millions sent home and pumped into their economy.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    ^ Exactly, because the parents may not get the "benefits" but the children do. And I do not care what anyone says...an illegal alien who gets hurt and treated at an ER sure DOES put stress on the healthcare system.

    There are a lot more cons that pros when allowing an influx of illegal aliens. It pisses me off to hear that the mexican government is ENCOURAGING their citizens to make the cross...and doing this knowing that those citizens will send their money home.

    I have no problem with helping other countries...however, we need to help our own, first. America and Americans come first. If the rest of the world would stop depending on America and do their own housecleaning, they wouldn't need to depend on America. We didn't get the freedom we have without a lot of bloodshed and wars.

    *sigh*

    Just build the damn wall and start kicking the aliens out. If they want to be here legally, then they'll just have to do it the legal way.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Just build the damn wall and start kicking the aliens out. If they want to be here legally, then they'll just have to do it the legal way.
    Actually, there is a fairly well organized (but poorly press covered) movement that is trying to point out that US gov't treatment of Mexican (illegal) immigrants differently than other (illegal) immigrants from eastern europe, africa, asia etc. is racist and highly discriminatory. Hundreds of thousands of eastern europeans, africans, asians etc. have signed up for the US 'green card' lottery and feel discriminated against if the US refuses them legal residency while granting it to Mexicans (and particularly to those Mexicans who didn't bother applying for the 'green card' lottery and merely snuck across the US border).


    As to the actual content and original intent of the 14th amendment, following is from a piece by Howard Sutherland ..

    (snip)"The Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment

    The first sentence of the 14th Amendment says:

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. [emphasis added]

    To hold that the Citizenship Clause confers birthright citizenship on anyone born in the United States is to ignore the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof”: a selective misreading of plain English. No argument rooted in the Constitution can support automatic birthright citizenship. The only question is how broadly to read the jurisdiction phrase in the Citizenship Clause. Logic, assisted by the Senate floor debate, answers this. The U.S. Supreme Court has since clouded the picture with its relatively few rulings on the Citizenship Clause, but despite what we are often encouraged to believe by some justices and law professors, the Constitution does not mean only what the Supreme Court says it does. Even so, the Court has never held that the Citizenship Clause automatically confers U.S. citizenship on all children born within the territory of the United States.

    The Ratification Debate

    The 14th Amendment, ratified on July 9, 1868, is the second of the three Reconstruction amendments to the Constitution ratified in the years immediately following Union victory in the War Between the States. A primary concern of the amendment’s proponents was the extension of civil rights to recently freed slaves. Senators feared that state legislatures would assert that, not having been born U.S. citizens, emancipation did not make freedmen citizens of their states (hence of the United States; state citizenship was a prerequisite to U.S. citizenship). To forestall any denial of citizenship to freed blacks and to overturn the Dred Scott decision[iii] explicitly, the 14th Amendment’s proponents introduced the Citizenship Clause.

    Nevertheless, they were well aware that a blanket grant of birthright citizenship was not consistent with American tradition and could lead to a demographic transformation in the event of high immigration. To prevent it, the senators included the jurisdiction phrase. The floor debate[iv] reveals their concerns and their views of how far birthright citizenship should extend.

    Introducing the proposed amendment, Senator Jacob Merritt Howard of Michigan stated that he believed the Citizenship Clause was “simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural and national law, a citizen of the United States.” He went on to say specifically whom he considered that natural and national law excluded:

    This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

    The only, tenuous, way to read Senator Howard’s statement to support birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens or, indeed, most legally resident aliens is to assume that the only foreigners or aliens he meant are those belonging to the families of diplomats. The simpler reading is to construe the sentence as what it is: a list of excluded categories. ""(snip)

    from

    again, neither of these points has a direct financial bearing ... but both have HUGE potential financial consequences for American middle class taxpayers.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-02-2006 at 03:47 PM.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    ^ Well, we have a higher number of Mexican immigrants flooding into the country than any other immigrant. We are "connected" to Mexico and thus the drug trafficking, the illegal crossings, etc...it all needs to be stopped.

    I believe, though, that the borders need to be closed to all immigrants. I don't believe in living in a country that you have no respect for the rules. We have enough problems at home than to worry about hosting other people.

    People look to America like it is the financial powerhouse of the world...and we are not anymore. Our numbers of unemployment are sky-rocketing, healthcare is insane, it's just not the country it used to be. While I sympathize with people who live in economies worse than ours, I am more apt to take care of my own first, and then others.

    The financial hardship of hosting so many illegal aliens is what is going to be the final straw on the camel's back.

    Yes, we have a Constitution of the United States. That Constitution was written for the protection of the American people. You are not an American if you come here to work illegally and send the money home. I'm sorry, but you cannot "stand behind" the Constitution and "fight for your rights" when you don't pay taxes and pay into the very country you are expecting those rights from.

    If you want to be an American, then you have to be here legally, paying taxes like everyone else. If you want to send your after-tax dollars to another country, fine. But, until you pay taxes like every other American citizen, you have no rights here. You have no protection under the Constitution. None. Period.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    We need less talk of changing the law for guest worker programs etc. ALL we need is enforcement of current law.

    We all accepted outsourcing because there supposedly would be other jobs opening up. We never counted on insourcing. If we indulge our sympathy we will be two steps closer to the same society Mexico has. Vicente Fox is a dear friend of President Bush. They want the same things: all the money big business can get at poor people's expense. I know it's Poo-ish but money and politics are inextricably linked for these leaders.
    Enough with the game playing and enforce the law of the land.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    If we indulge our sympathy we will be two steps closer to the same society Mexico has
    Agreed ... the financial effects of extending social welfare benefits to poor, unskilled workers to artificially improve their standard of living (whether citizens, legal aliens, or illegal aliens) have always been paid for by 'extracting' wealth/earnings from the middle class. This always creates a situation (eventually) where the middle class loses their incentive to make a greater effort or take greater risk in exchange for achieving greater wealth/earnings, because they know that the fruits of that extra effort will simply be 'extracted' from them and handed over to someone else instead of bettering their own life or the standard of living of their own family. This is more or less true in Europe already, and it's starting to be the case here in America. When taken to extremes, as in Mexico, you basically wind up with an extremely wealthy upper class who own all the businesses and properties, an extremely poor lower class with little hope of their standard of living improving substantially, and very few people anywhere in the middle.

    In fact, one could argue that 'it's already here' in states which have been very generous with social welfare program benefits and very lax about enforcement of illegal alien workers, like NY for example. If you are a middle class 'professional' in NYC, let's say a SCORES dancer or a CPA or anybody else that has the potential of earning say $800 a day and can choose how many days of the week you want to work, and say you also own a $500,000 house or condo with a big mortgage, if all of your income is automatically reported and taxed you're already working the 5th day of the week essentially for nothing and would lose next to nothing by only working 4 days a week instead of 5. Don't believe me ? Crank up TurboTax and run the numbers with the AMT thrown in.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-03-2006 at 04:35 AM.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Don't believe me ? Crank up TurboTax and run the numbers with the AMT thrown in.
    LOL...or see my bitch thread about AMT.

    I am appalled, however, that the one thing that has not changed in decades is the way that they tax people. Sure, tax rates go up and down, but the threshold is the same. $60,000+ (before you hit AMT) today is nothing compared to what it was 40+ years ago.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    the financial effects of extending social welfare benefits to poor, unskilled workers to artificially improve their standard of living (whether citizens, legal aliens, or illegal aliens) have always been paid for by 'extracting' wealth/earnings from the middle class.
    I don't agree with that. Those workers are not unskilled. The vast majority of the workers paid below poverty level wages are women doing 'caring' work. It's very hard and thankless (even in many marriages). Men and employers clamor for and make handsome profits from the very abilities they say are simple and worthless. Paris Hilton is living high off the worthless skills legions of underpaid workers contribute to make specific hotels sought after. It's like the custy who drives across town and pays a cover charge to enter an SC then attempts to sit and enjoy a VERY specialized kindness and intense level of attention but dismisses it as worthless and beneath him when it's time to tip.


    The worth of any job is determined by the revenue it generates AND....the support and respect the public gives it. Athletes play with balls all day so they're no more skilled than an EMT or daycare worker. Both of their companies turn a handsome profit and the only reason the low wage workers don't get paid a fair wage is because politicians leave them high and dry when it comes to enforcing their right to organize and when it comes to adjusting minimum wage. Many would rather turn away and tell themselves they're financially comfortable because they deserve it and those workers don't. Our skills are no more superior than theirs. A guy playing with balls all day is not more superior. We make money because the public chooses to give it. Ball players make money because their union makes it happen.

    The second point I disagree with is the idea that the price of supplementing underpaid workers has always fallen to the middle class. I'm not sure how far back you're going but these workers being grossly underpaid is a fairly recent phenomenon. The service sector has been gradually left behind in minimal cost of living increases since the seventies. Before that, service and manufacturing sectors were paid enough to buy a modest home and raise a family. Their companies paid a living wage and benefits. Now, they don't have to because they have insourcing and a government that helps subsidize them AND pay their workers.
    Last edited by Optimist; 05-03-2006 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Optimist, your argument only seems to hold water when you look at the concept of 'fair value' pay from a myopic US-centric viewpoint, and over a time period that begins with the end of WW2. From a global standpoint, from 1946 forward US workers were paid far more than 'fair value' ... basically because the WW2 Allies had literally destroyed the production capacity of a large part of the rest of the world, such that intact US industries enjoyed a monopoly. This fact, combined with the extremely high value of the US dollar after WW2, allowed US workers to be paid at far higher rates than were considered to be 'fair value' during the 1930's ! When the rest of the world had started rebuilding their destroyed production capacity in the 50's, 60's and early 70's, the de-facto monopoly which the US had enjoyed filling the post-war vacuum for manufactured products gradually ebbed away, and 'fair value' judgements started to have to include German, Japanese etc. workers as well as American workers. Unfortunately, American unions/workers could not/would not allow this readjustment to take place, such that American industries have been forced to keep paying wages to American workers that are well above worldwide 'fair value'. Do a little research into ANYTHING financial from 1970 forward, and you'll see that from that point on America has essentially been borrowing money to overpay its workers in one form or another.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess
    ...I don't believe in living in a country that you have no respect for the rules. We have enough problems at home than to worry about hosting other people....
    Re: "respect for the rules," I don't really expect that to ever happen. Unless, of course, I see those who hire illegal immigrants doing the "perp walk" on the nightly news. They could start with the CEOs of Tyson and Wal-Mart, plus possibly the BODs of those corporations, but as we all know, what I've just written here is a pipedream. I recall reading about some Chinese guy being sentenced to nine years for recruiting illegal alien restaurant workers. Interesting that this guy is sentenced, no doubt to silence critics, while the corporate CEOs go scott free to continue doing finanacial damage to the U.S. middle class.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    My US-centric viewpoint is all that matters here because every society decides for itself what value they will place on any given occupation: through the money they choose or do not choose to spend for a good or service, through the policies politicians choose to uphold or ignore, through a corporate attitude of fair play or exploitation. US workers from 1946 were paid and insured reasonably because they began fighting for union protection TEN years before in the thirties. Monopolies don't make companies become benevolent. Monopolies create tyranny. You remember the big fight over slavery, right? You know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Had workers not started organizing and standing up to harassment, threats of violence, and unjust firings, and had politicians not started to require a living wage and freedom of association (union organizing).....the 50s would never have been so golden.

    The wage level of low-wage workers declined because the government undermined enforcement of fair employment and fair bargaining practices. Through the eighties the Reagan administration undermined those laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Do a little research into ANYTHING financial from 1970 forward, and you'll see that from that point on America has essentially been borrowing money to overpay its workers in one form or another.
    My research on financial matters from the 70s has shown that companies in these sectors keep on earning but don't want a dime to 'trickle down' to anyone but their shareholders and their top echelon managers. Funny, this trend took off once companies started to rely on stock options to lure the best and the brightest. The cheapest short-term trick for raising the stock's price is mindlessly slashing payroll and....OUTSOURCING! I know I know, they say they NEED it to be competitive. Now we have a glut of theives posing as managers and bankrupting company after company..... So much for competition.
    Last edited by Optimist; 05-03-2006 at 02:08 PM.

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    Default Re: ICE busts bring focus to America's illegal alien economy ...

    My US-centric viewpoint is all that matters here because every society decides for itself what value they will place on any given occupation: through the money they choose or do not choose to spend for a good or service, through the policies politicians choose to uphold or ignore, through a corporate attitude of fair play or exploitation
    Again from a purely financial standpoint, this is only true in a 'closed' market. Once imported goods and services and/or outsourcing enter the equation, that society can't arbitrarily 'assign' a value to any given domestic occupation because foreign competition establishes the marginal cost of similar goods and services. The 50's were a de-facto closed market because WW2 conflict had literally blown up most of the worldwide competition. In order to pull off the same thing today, it would be necessary to erect tariffs and quotas covering every foreign import, and repricing every American made product or service upward such that US companies could actually be profitable again while paying union / living / prevailing wage rates.

    What society CAN assign is the value of unearned social welfare benefits i.e. 'American minimum standard of living' paid for by the non-voluntary transfer of another American's wealth/earnings. The above scenario effectively does exactly the same thing, but by forcing other Americans to pay artificially increased prices rather than increased taxes.

    If you pick virtually any US industry segment that is heavily utilizing illegal immigrant cheap labor, and actually stop the practice by whatever means, that US industry segment has two choices ... increase pay rates to living wage levels and pass on the increased labor cost in the form of higher prices (and hope your business survives), or pack up your US industry and move it offshore. Yes there will be certain 'geographically connected' industries like hotels and retail and fresh produce that will have to try the first choice (thus raising prices of hotel rooms and retail products and heads of lettuce). But there will also be industry segments where the production or service facility can be moved offshore (i.e. the aforementioned pallet factory, RV assembly plant, customer service centers etc.), in which case the underpaid illegal worker becomes an unemployed worker rather than a 'fairly paid' worker.

    The wage level of low-wage workers declined because the government undermined enforcement of fair employment and fair bargaining practices. Through the eighties the Reagan administration undermined those laws.
    Yes, but ... had this not happened in the 80's Delphi and a plethora of other companies would have filed for bankruptcy in the 90's instead of the 00's

    Having lawyers draw up and interpret all these things certainly allows them to ensure the financial stability of their profession for generations to come
    Ain't that the truth ! And the lawyers are de-facto protected from foreign competition due to state bar exam / qualification reviews plus the need to physically plead cases in front of a judge in US courtrooms.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-03-2006 at 03:43 PM.

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