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Thread: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    (snip)"Advocates furiously downplay the cost of this nation-within-a-nation. They peddle instead sugary platitudes that hold illegal immigrants are simply hardworking people who "pay taxes" and fuel the American economy.

    The facts, plainly visible to working Americans, tell a different story:


    The estimated 1.1 million illegal immigrants currently in the nation's public school system cost taxpayers $9.6 billion every year in an attempt to educate them (despite the illegal immigrant community's epidemic-scale dropout rates)

    The 2.2 million children of illegal immigrants in America, often referred to as "anchor babies" to ensure the parents can stay, add an additional $20 billion to that tab

    In California, the 2004-05 state budget spent $9,811 per pupil in the classroom. An estimated 425,000 illegal immigrants in the state's classrooms during that period cost taxpayers more than $4 billion -- a figure that does not include the "anchor baby" population in the classroom

    More than 40,000 illegal immigrants jammed California's prison system in 2004, costing taxpayers $1.5 billion in tax dollars not reimbursed by the federal government

    In one of the cruelest jokes played on the American taxpayers, illegal immigrants are allowed to claim children living back in Mexico and qualify for the earned-income tax credit, which traditionally has helped the American poor. {this little tidbit is even beyond my own pessimistic imagination - Melonie}

    These numbers are just the tip of a fiscal iceberg that government officials have slammed the American ship of state into -- and now they are striking up the band and rearranging the deck chairs.

    Americans hear the mantra every day that without illegal immigrants working in jobs that citizens are too lazy to do, everything from a clean hotel room to a head of lettuce would skyrocket in price. A day without a Mexican -- the refrain now goes -- would literally lead to the collapse of the American economy.

    To the contrary, a year without the crushing weight of millions of illegal immigrants on communities and their budgets just may save the American working and middle class.

    Yet there is precious little discussion of how a family of six Mexican nationals living in Pomona, Calif., who soak up nearly $40,000 annually in taxpayer dollars just to educate their four children, is contributing more back into the economy. Consider even if the primary wage-earner in this family grossed $35,000 annually, a fortune back in Mexico, most of that income is likely to be off the books and undertaxed.

    But education is only one part of the social services system meant for at-risk and in-need Americans that illegal immigrants have drilled into: health-care costs and subsidized housing are two other areas where the crushing cost of illegal immigration is destroying the system.

    Working- and middle-class Americans know that illegal immigrants do not live in the shadows, as political mythology would have it, but more aptly they occupy a parallel universe -- one that sees them compete for American jobs, access benefits for Americans and yet send their hard-earned money out of the country to Mexico, propping up a hopelessly corrupt government."(snip)

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    I'm with ya Mel. Especially on the EIC - I think that is just the icing on the bullshit cake

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    While I'm hesitant to post the following from the "Los Angeles Daily News," now knowing the link will only be active for the next two weeks, I'm going to post it anyway

    http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_3786955


    Personally, if this makes it to the ballot, I'm only voting in the affirmative for the flood control protection, albeit very, very reluctantly. There's no reason whatsoever anymore to give California school districts more money, considering their current graduation rates. Btw, I've heard three of their hoped for ten billion is earmarked for the public university systems of California, but it's primarily for K-12 and the building of new high schools. And I can't even remember the number of the proposition anymore, but California voters already voted for money to be dedicated to road repair, etc. in the past. Of course, that money was somehow "redirected" by the Sacramento "gremlins" to other purposes.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Third yea here, Mel.

    Having lived in California I heard people complain about housing costs. Yet on the other hand they couldn't even fathom the idea that having all the illegals out there driving rents upwards with increased demand.

    This is definitely a "political levy" issue for the country.

    I hear once again republicans are going to drag up "fake issues" in the Congress to stir up their supporters. Watch how gay marriage and "out of control" judges once again fill the political landscape. Meanwhile the illegal immigration and other important issues (as outsourcing, offshoring, national debt, raising tuition costs, housing bubble, oil bubble, yadayadayada) are conveniently overlooked.

    In the end, I have simply accepted that doom is coming (can you all tell from my posts?) and it is indeed OUR OWN FAULT with nearly 50% of the voters not stepping up to the plate and DEMANDING better policy from politicians.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    In the end, I have simply accepted that doom is coming (can you all tell from my posts?) and it is indeed OUR OWN FAULT with nearly 50% of the voters not stepping up to the plate and DEMANDING better policy from politicians.
    Yes, but the real problem with that approach is that the 'better policy' which the majority of future California registered voters (as well as NY, IL, MI and a bunch of other states) are likely to demand will be increased social welfare program benefits / increased housing and utility subsidies / more public sector jobs etc. - to be paid for by increased taxes on the minority of registered voters remaining in those states who are still productively working in the private sector at earnings levels where they actually have to pay taxes.

    In the immortal and prescient words of Ren and Stimpy, "the book says ............. we're doomed !"

    Of course, when the 51% point is reached, that minority of remaining private sector taxpayers will still have an option to vote against such measures ... by 'voting with their feet' to escape draconian state and local taxes in CA, NY, IL, MI etc. Of course the 'rich' will use the standard remedies to escape much of the tax increases, and will remain in the necessary role of the 'ruling class' that owns all of the assets.

    This will be quickly followed by the exodus / bankruptcy of lots of CA, NY, IL, MI businesses, who can no longer find/attract enough skilled middle class workers at reasonable pay rates, and who can no longer afford rising property taxes, state income taxes, non-subsidized utility prices, etc. that will result from the increased benefit payments approved by the majority of registered voters.

    Theoretical end result ... California and Baja California - Chicago and Caracas - Detroit and Damascus - Bronx and Beijing - will wind up with essentially the same 'rich and poor' economy and the same relative difference in standards of living !

    In point of fact, these states are not quite at the 51% point ... yet ... depending of course on how well the citizenship voting qualifications are checked in the next election cycle LOL. There's still a chance to turn things around if middle class and working class Americans would just connect the frigging dots in regard to economic cause and effect upon their own futures.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-06-2006 at 09:46 AM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    more specific accounting ... but the most recent numbers are from 2002 and have increased significantly in the last 4 years. Even so ...

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    ^^^ Of course there will be people out there saying "I don't believe it!" even if they themselves don't have any numbers

    OR

    Their benefits are "hidden" in terms of lower costs which means they actually are creating "millions in value" and like the american way - they are not being paid for it while the rich benefit from it.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Deo, the vdare link above was for the nearly $7000 annual cost to other taxpayers in 2002 (probably risen to $10,000 a year in 2006) of a typical unskilled but LEGAL immigrant family ... who ARE getting paid at least minimum wage, who ARE paying SSI and other income taxes, but who are also collecting social welfare benefits and/or creating governmental costs which far exceed the amount of tax money they contribute to the system to defray those costs.

    The employer economics of extremely low pay illegal immigrants, and the 'value added' produced by illegal immigrants creating 'bargains' for other Americans, only works as long as the illegal immigrants stay illegal ! If legalized, not only do other Americans lose their 'bargains', but those 50% of other Americans who actually pay significant income taxes can expect major tax increases in order to fund the social program benefits extended to newly legalized former aliens.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Mark Cromer is a senior writing fellow for Californians for Population Stabilization (www.capsweb.org).
    I'm not even going to bother reading the "article."

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox
    I'm not even going to bother reading the "article."
    No no no no no - I don't want to know the truth because I don't like hearing it!

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    No no no no no - I don't want to know the truth because I don't like hearing it!
    I don't care to hear "the truth" from a bible beater, why should I treat this zealot different from any other asshole with an agenda?

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    ^^^ Maybe because he is the one walking around with at least some facts and research. All I hear from "liberals" is spouting of "it's racism" to "it actually benefits the economy to put citizens in second place for jobs."

    (I apologize for jumping down your throat - it was so Paris Hilton of me.)

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    let's try to keep the economic aspect of this issue the primary focus, OK ! I know that is difficult given what's been coming out of the US Senate lately ... (if this bill survives it will have a potential trillion dollar negative impact on the future Social Security shortfall, but the financial ramifications were hardly discussed at all)
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-19-2006 at 08:52 PM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    let's try to keep the economic aspect of this issue the primary focus, OK ! I know that is difficult given what's been coming out of the US Senate lately ... (if this bill survives it will have a potential trillion dollar negative impact on the future Social Security shortfall, but the financial ramifications were hardly discussed at all)

    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...4132-2456r.htm
    In the interest of providing some information from a website which, to the best of my knowledge, has no "political axe" to grind about this topic, here is are some search results from snopes. I simply entered "illegal immigration" into their "search" function.

    http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=illegal+immigration&sp-a=00062d45-sp00000000&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-date-range=-1&sp-x=any&sp-c=100&sp-m=1&sp-s=0

    And this is the first link, concerned specifically with Los Angeles County. Due to the fact so many of these studies are necessarily based on "guesstimates," people on either side of this debate will claim whatever study supports their views. But this still makes for some interesting reading.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

    As to Melonie's link to the article re: Social Security, I have a question which is about 50/50 political/financial. Fisrt, is identity theft in the U.S. considered to be a felony? If so, aren't U.S. citizens convicted of felonies denied the ability to collect their Social Security? If identity theft is a felony and the federal government does provide Social Security checks to those who have crossed U.S. borders illegally, and also committed ID theft, even if unintentionally, wouldn't you then also have to provide Social Security checks to any U.S. citizens who have been convicted of a felony when they hit age 65-plus? Otherwise, it seems to me the U.S. citizens could sue the government for being denied equal protection under the law. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but it still seems to me this would be the case.
    Last edited by PhaedrusZ; 05-19-2006 at 09:04 PM. Reason: repaired one link

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Again my reason for posting the Senate link was to emphasize the point that the trillion dollar economic aspect of their decision to grant illegal aliens who had paid into Social Security as a result of successfully committing 'identity theft' and successfully eluding discovery of their crime the right to collect Social Security benefits wasn't even discussed !!!!!

    Obviously the legal side of this Senate bill has enormous problems in the area of allowing criminals to profit from their crimes, and obviously also has problems in the area of equal treatment under the law. Fortunately, given that the house of representatives will never allow this Senate bill to survive a conference committee, this Senate vote actually amounts to little more than election year posturing.

    As to the accuracy of the illegal alien financial analysis available at the Snopes link, as always it is essentially impossible to include ALL of the elements of cost involved. Typically the unreimbursed costs of emergency room medical treatment of illegal aliens, costs of ejudication and incarceration of illegal aliens found guilty of serious crimes, cost of educating the illegal alien children of illegal aliens etc. get left off the list.

    However, at the very least, it is clear that illegal aliens as well as legal aliens who have a low skill level wind up costing other Americans FAR more in tax dollars to fund social benefits for the illegal aliens than the aliens themselves contribute via the taxes they themselves pay. It is equally clear that unskilled/semiskilled illegal aliens willing to work for low pay rates winds up costing unskilled/semiskilled Americans potential income because the 'going rate' for the work performed is driven downward.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-20-2006 at 06:14 AM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    ^^^ Maybe because he is the one walking around with at least some facts and research. All I hear from "liberals" is spouting of "it's racism" to "it actually benefits the economy to put citizens in second place for jobs."

    (I apologize for jumping down your throat - it was so Paris Hilton of me.)
    No need to apologize, I already knew you were an arrogant asshole with nothing but insults for people who disagree with you.

    I'm not calling it racism, but I've called it hypocritical numerous times.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox
    No need to apologize, I already knew you were an arrogant asshole with nothing but insults for people who disagree with you.

    I'm not calling it racism, but I've called it hypocritical numerous times.
    Well, you are showing your true colors far more brilliantly than I.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - actual California cost accounting re illegal aliens

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol
    Well, you are showing your true colors far more brilliantly than I.
    Way to take the high road after the fact....

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