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    Default Cost of college and young debt

    Interesting podcast on this subject

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    I don't want to 'cherry pick', but there appear to be three major issues in play. The first is that COMPETENT college graduate talent is increasingly available at 'bargain' prices from offshore sources ... particularly from India and China ... which is driving down both the number of new 'white collar' jobs being created in America as well as remaining American 'white collar' job pay rates in general via H1B's and/or outsourcing and/or offshore relocation.

    The second is that the 'immediate usefulness' of American college graduates to businesses is questionable. Often the degrees they pursued in business or liberal arts or even engineering have not prepared them for the 'real world' ... meaning that would-be employers must invest in 'training' as well as accept poor 'immediate' productivity, which further depresses starting wage offers. Many new American graduates are also of the opinion that obtaining a college degree has raised them above the level of having to work long/odd hours, having to work up a sweat, having to get dirty etc., creating 'work ethic' problems. The 'tin foil hat' crowd would argue that this is the direct result of 30 years worth of 'the Ward Churchill Syndrome' resulting in most of the tenured faculty of American colleges being significantly out of touch with the 'real world', thus being unable to actually prepare their American students, whereas the faculty of most foreign universities have typically worked in the real world for most of their adult lives before becoming professors.

    Lastly is the time value of money equation's effect on recent American graduates. A $150,000 debt plus four previous years worth of essentially zero income starts them on the road to financial independence with essentially zero assets and $1000+ a month in liabilities. Given today's corporate pay rates and progressive federal/state income tax rates, in many cases a recent American college graduate's remaining after-tax after student loan income is not much higher than their high school buddies who didn't bother to invest time or money in spending 4 years in college. Until recently new American graduates could indulge in a 'patina' of affluence because they were eligible for easy credit that their high school buddies were not (as well as painless bankruptcy), but rising creditworthiness standards and more painful bankruptcies are gradually closing the door on a 'spend now, earn later' white collar lifestyle. Psychologically, this is a demoralizing realization which can lead to additional 'work ethic' problems (i.e. the realization that obtaining a college degree no longer guarantees the American 'white collar' lifestyle that their parents enjoyed and that they have grown up expecting for themselves).

    While not in the forefront (yet), future trends towards increasing tax rates to meet increasing gov't obligations i.e. trade deficit T-Bonds, Social Security, Medicaid, social welfare programs, and general gov't spending habits which can't ever hold spending levels under control (we'll see what happens with Bush's Veto threat next week !), will only result in a proportionately greater tax burden on American college graduates working at 'white collar' jobs in the future than falls on his high school buddies with blue collar earnings levels. Thus the future differential in lifestyle/standard of living between American college graduates and non-graduates is likely to further contract. The 'tin foil hat' crowd speculates that this issue will spark a 'generational war' once baby-boomer stop working and start collecting retirement benefits over the next decade, leading to immediate tax increases on younger 'white collar' workers if previous 'gov't promises' are actually kept. Again according to the 'tin foil hat' crowd, this is of course just one more manifestation of US policies being on a course towards the destruction of the 'middle class' - with recently graduated white collar Americans coming under attack before they even have a chance to establish a middle class lifestyle/standard of living in the first place.

    Not to worry though ... one American white collar profession seems totally immune from foreign competition, downward pay pressure, or lack of new positions --- LAWYERS ! But ultimately (and unfortunately) somebody else winds up paying for those legal fees by one means or another. In many cases the legal tab is picked up by American corporations battling product liability / environmental / sexual discrimination / unfair labor practices etc. lawsuits which increase corporate operating expenses, which decrease the future paychecks of their American white collar employees, and which give the corporation's board of directors more reason to outsource or relocate offshore thus jeopardizing the future job security of recently hired American white collar employees.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-06-2006 at 05:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    and as to where author/interviewee Tamara Drout is coming from in regard to her interview points ... most of which are elucidated in her recent book 'Strapped', I tend to agree with this Amazon book reviewer...

    "Draut Lays Blame In The Wrong Places, January 16, 2006
    Reviewer: TCHRISTO (SAN FRANCISCO)

    The central thesis of this book is that young people are drowning in debt, and specifically student loan debt. (Draut also talks about credit card debt, but that appears to be presented as more of a derivative problem: young people need to rely on credit cards to live because their student loan debts are so high they otherwise could not meet their routine expenses). The problem, according to Draut, is that the government is simply not "giving" (as opposed to "loaning") students enough money to complete college or graduate school. Thus, students graduate with so much debt that they just can't get ahead in life, and spend their 20's and 30' trying to stay afloat with no real chance of getting ahead. The solution, according to Draut, is for people to pay more taxes. Draut suggets capping the home mortgage interest deduction at $10,000 (p. 226), raising the social security ceiling beyond $87, 900 (p. 22, increasing payroll taxes (p. 233), rolling back recent tax cuts, etc., etc.

    But Draut's own statistics undercut her conclusion and show that she is laying blame at the wrong doorstep. While she correctly notes that recent graduates are indeed in greater debt than students in years past, she completely ignores the fact that this is clearly not due to reduced funding in the form of grants to students. (She notes that funding has in fact increased over the past 25 years). Draut identifies the real problem in her introduction: college tuition and fees have gone up much, much faster than inflation in the past 25 years. (p.8.) She then does not even bother to ask the most obvious question: why? Who's fault is this? She fails to lay any blame whatsoever on the colleges themselves, who have utterly failed to keep tuition and fees in line with inflation. Instead, she simply blames the government (and taxpayers) for not being willing to continue to pay, without question, these rising costs by continually giving more and more free money (i.e. "grants") as opposed to loans, to the students.

    The real question Draut should be asking is why has the cost of college risen so much in the past 25 years? Do some Google searches and you will find the answer pretty quickly (Hint: it isn't because the education has gotten better). It is because college administrators have decided that they need to charge you, the students, more money in order to fund the multitudes of social engineering projects that they have determined should be present on college campuses. (Note: the cost of attending both public and private universities has far outpaced inflation. Thus, the rising costs at public universities cannot be blamed solely on reduced government support).

    Message to Draut: I and millions of other taxpayers are not interested in paying more taxes in order to indirectly subsidize these projects. If college administrators think these projects are so important, they need to figure out a way to pay for them consistent with an internal budget that does not require them to gouge students or taxpayers.

    Another problem with this book is that several of Draut's examples of struggling young people appear to have dug their own financial grave by making irresponsible choices. Take poor "Elaine", 27, whom we are supposed to feel sorry for because she has $40,000 in credit card debt. (p. 109) Elaine racked up credit card debt because she had to buy new furniture, so that her apartment would look like an "adult's apartment, not an annex of her dorm room." (p. 109). We also learn that despite her debts, Elaine "has no regrets" because "she thinks about the things she did - - studying abroard in Scotland, flying to Paris, having the perfect wedding - - and knows it would never have been possible without credit." (p. 109)

    You have got to be kidding! Second Message to Drout: I and millions of other taxpayers are not interested in paying more taxes to subsidize the lifestyle of people like Elaine. If she wants to live abroad in Scotland, jet off to Paris, and, have that oh so perfect wedding, she should figure out how to pay for that herself. (Quick note on weddings: Draut gives several examples of young people going into debt because they used credit cards to fly all over the country to attend friends' weddings. I cannot believe Drout has the nerve to suggest that taxpayers should indirectly subsidize this kind of behavior.)

    Draut herself also serves as an unsympathtic example. On pages, 1-2, she talks about how she found herslf at age 30 sitting in her living room, broke, but with a massive CD collection spread out over her living room floor. She then explains that she was in drowing in debt (student loans and credit cards), and was forced to sell some of her CD's in order to get money to pay her bills. Again, you have got to be kidding. Are we supposed to feel sorry for her? CD's are a luxury item, now costing almost $20 each. I can't tell you how many times I have been in a music store, wanting to buy CD's, but restrained myself out of a sense of fiscal responsibility. Maybe if Draut had the same sense of restraint, she would not have found herself in such a mess.

    Final message to Draut: I and millions of other taxpayers are not interested in paying more taxes so that you can own a massive CD collection. Here's a better solution to the problem than raising taxes: teach young people that if you can't afford something, you should not buy it."
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-06-2006 at 05:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Also, the book reviewer and I are apparently not the only ones who are livid over the failure of many Americans to face facts right in front of their eyes regarding America's Higher Education problem and its socio-economic consequences ...



    (snip)"That's how oil company profits are reported. Why not subsidize the oil companies, which provide a product essential to allowing 300 million Americans to live, and put a cap on the price of college, which seems designed to turn out more liberal parasites on the productive?

    As economist Richard Vedder of Ohio University has demonstrated, every time the government subsidizes college tuition through tuition tax credits, college tuition rises by the precise amount of the tuition tax credit.

    How about investigating the "shameful display of greed" by college professors? "(snip)

    {deliberately tiptoeing around most of Ann's political hyperbole while trying to preserve her economic point}

    ... OK, I'm done ranting !!!
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-06-2006 at 05:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Be wary of the review Mel, it didn't do the book justice - there was some filtering in what was being read in there. The two people cited were exampled as being "fooled" by the system that told them they would have the earnings to support that lifestyle.

    I read the book more like the reviewer mocca:

    Reviewer: mokka - See all my reviews
    This is a very valuable book - for two reasons. On the one hand, it provides a general overview of a series of myths about the USA. On the other hand, it shows the actual reality behind those myths, and how this currently affects young adults' lives.

    Myths, incidentally, are "something that many people believe but that does not exist or is false" (according to the dictionary).

    Throughout the book, the author defends one of the greatest modern myths, the American Dream - which should be attainable to everyone, whatever your background. Draut argues that "American values" are all about building a just society, where everybody has "equal opportunities" to make it to the celebrated "middle-class". In this context, college education should be available for everyone - being the first stage in a process of "upward mobility" for the masses of underprivileged Americans. They should be "rewarded" for their "hard work" by being allowed to attain all the "amenities" of middle-class life: a stable and well-paid job, enduring security, a comfy home with garden, happy children, guaranteed retirement. All this, preferably, somewhere in the big city (or suburbs), with access to all the "cultural stimulation" and "career opportunities".

    After painting this picture of the ideal life, the author shows that the "baby boomer" generation had a much greater chance of attaining all these goodies and pleasures than their children, the "generation X", will ever have.

    Of course, only some baby boomers "made it" to the middle-class - since inequality is inherent to any (industrial) society, and the USA sure have thrived on all the poor and huddled masses welcomed (and kept) as cheap labour throughout the centuries (a practice that has continued in full force with globalization).
    But Draut does have a point when she claims that the ones who THOUGHT they were already middle-class or just a step away from it are now confronted with continual obstacles. The middle-class is not taking any more newcomers. In fact, it's even kicking out many of its members.

    Is this really so surprising? Or was it all just one grand illusion anyway?

    After looking at all the neat promises incorporated by the American Dream, it would be adequate to actually confront the desert of the REAL. Draut's book is here very helpful.

    Through comparisons between "baby boomers" and "Xers", interviews, statistics, examination of public policies, and a historical overview of major socio-economic changes, the author shows what today's young adults are actually achieving. Instead of the dream, they basically have to content themselves with Junk.

    College and university education remain easily accessible for the higher classes and basically inaccessible for the lower ones, because of high fees - so much for equal opportunity. In order to attain even a low-quality college degree, most young adults end up indebted and spend the next decade or so of their lives trying to get rid of the debt. But since all they can get (mostly) are temporary and not-all-that-well-paid jobs, their debts keep rising instead of shrinking: they have to pay high rents in packed cities - and often resort to their credit card for daily expenses (groceries, car-repair, etc).
    If young adults manage at all to keep a job long enough (even though most get no health security - and have to struggle to save a few cents for retirement), they "decide" to buy a house, thus adding nicely to their debts, since they are living pay check by pay check anyway Then come the children (even though the parents hardly manage to feed themselves), which are also part of everyone's dream - and a whole ordeal begins: mum doesn't have the chance to do the basic caretaking of a newborn without risking her job, the kid has to be put in the hands of strangers before it has recovered from the shock of birth, the parents can't afford to stay at home for a day when their children fall ill, and the bills naturally keep piling up (and now mum and dad have to start saving for junior's college education).

    Young adults who have reached this point in their lives - and are lucky enough not to have lost their job in the meantime - are often disenchanted. This surely wasn't what they hoped to achieve with adulthood!

    Quite understandably, Draut - who apparently still believes in the myths - is offended about the course of events in the USA. She tells us that American society was supposed to "embrace collective purpose over individual gains" - even though a capitalist system must necessarily thrive on individualism (at best sustaining the "collective purpose" of corporations and such) at the expenses of all the others.

    In this context, someone is in fact STILL "making it": the CEOs and the "ultra"-rich, the big corporations, the credit card companies and banks, the government's military campaigns and space projects. The losers are just about everyone else. Which is simply part of the game, really. The new rules, such as globalization, deregulation and automation, have made it utterly impossible to continue on the supposedly "upward" path of the baby boomers.

    So in the end, the good old days of "prosperity" for the "little people" could be regarded as little more than a bubble - which has just burst.

    The author therefore sadly concludes that "the dream is slipping through our hands". Which is what dreams are supposed to do, anyway. The only obvious "solution", then, might be to WAKE UP. Reality sucks, but it's still the only concrete thing out there. It is also, arguably, the most unpleasant one - so no wonder that so many people have preferred to believe in a fable.

    The problem is that in this case, as even Draut acknowledges, "the joke is on you". Look out, kid.

    (And you might actually want to show this book to your parents and such - since chances are that also they haven't noticed yet that the myth is going down the drain, and might blame YOU for not "achieving" what isn't up for grabs anyway...)


    I like the coin termed in another review - the baby boomers referred to as "Generation Me."

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    After painting this picture of the ideal life, the author shows that the "baby boomer" generation had a much greater chance of attaining all these goodies and pleasures than their children, the "generation X", will ever have.

    Of course, only some baby boomers "made it" to the middle-class - since inequality is inherent to any (industrial) society, and the USA sure have thrived on all the poor and huddled masses welcomed (and kept) as cheap labour throughout the centuries (a practice that has continued in full force with globalization).
    But Draut does have a point when she claims that the ones who THOUGHT they were already middle-class or just a step away from it are now confronted with continual obstacles. The middle-class is not taking any more newcomers. In fact, it's even kicking out many of its members.
    Nobody is disagreeing with author Drout's conclusion in this regard. What we're disagreeing with are her 'claimed reasons' why the American middle class is shrinking and her denial of many of the TRUE reasons (presumably since many of the TRUE reasons indibt her personal politico-economic beliefs). We're also disagreeing with her primary proposed means to 'improve' the situation, i.e. transferring yet more wealth via increased taxation to further subsidize declining American standards of living of recent college graduates whose actual 'world market value' can't support the lifestyle they feel they are entitled to.

    your reviewer acknowledges this as well ... "the only obvious "solution", then, might be to WAKE UP. Reality sucks, but it's still the only concrete thing out there. It is also, arguably, the most unpleasant one - so no wonder that so many people have preferred to believe in a fable."


    I like the coin termed in another review - the baby boomers referred to as "Generation Me."
    Well, this term certainly fits the author's 'claimed reasons', by implying that baby boomers were selfish out of personal choice. However, historical facts show that baby boomers in fact contributed a far larger share of their earnings to the welfare of others than previous generations did. Of course, that 'contribution' of a far larger share of baby boomer earnings towards the welfare of others was not voluntary ! Thus baby boomer's efforts to try and hang onto whatever remained of their incomes after high taxes confiscated the rest so that they might help their own families/children perpetuate a middle class lifestyle is interpreted by Drout and your reviewer as selfishness.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-06-2006 at 07:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Many don't pay full fare
    But many college students don't pay sticker price. 63 percent of students receive some form of aid, either loans, grants or both, according to the National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators.

    On average, full-time students at private institutions get about $9,600 in aid in the form of grants and tax benefits. At public four-year schools, the average is $3,300.

    On an inflation-adjusted basis, federal grant aid has increased by $8 billion over the past decade, while loans provided by college and universities to their students rose $11 billion. Also, state grant aid for students is up 78 percent over the last ten years.

    Nevertheless, the 2004-5 increase in inflation-adjusted grant dollars was the smallest in the past decade, and grants represent a smaller percentage of students' aid package, according to the College Board.

    Ten years ago, grants comprised 23 percent of federal aid, loans 75 percent and work-study programs 2 percent. This year, grants are down to 20 percent, loans make up 70 percent, work-study makes up 1 percent. The remaining 9 percent comes from federal tax credits and deductions.

    The study found that the average debt for graduating college seniors who borrow to finance their undergraduate degree is just under $20,000. And loans from private sources -- which frequently have less favorable interest rates than federal programs -- are growing more common.

    Lower-income students still receive a larger percentage of available aid than upper-income students, but significant changes in aid distribution are afoot.

    A major benefit to low-income students in years past was the Pell Grant, which is provided strictly on the basis of financial need. But the grant's ceiling has not been adjusted for inflation or tuition increases, even as both have eroded families' ability to foot college bills.

    "The maximum contribution remains at $4,000," said Sandy Baum, senior policy analyst at the College Board. "Therefore the Pell Grant covers a smaller and smaller portion of students' total tuition costs."

    And tax credit and deduction options disproportionately benefit people in higher tax brackets, Baum said.
    http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/17/pf/c...osts/index.htm

    This issue like many we discuss have so many differant sides. I don't think it is just one factor alone.
    I actually quit college because of the debt factor. It made no sense to be way over my head in debt before I even had a job. I did not have parents to fall back on. I work with a girl who has a bacholars degree from the University of Michigan. I do not have a degree and still make more than she does.

    The American Dream is about making oppurtunities available. But it is also about working towards your goal with the freedom to achieve it. Part of the problem is no one wants to work for it any more. Which is why I believe any one that puts in the effort deserves the rewards no matter if they are "skilled or unskilled".

    Btw we subsidize oil companies the same way we subsidize education thru tax breaks and incentives.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Part of the problem is no one wants to work for it any more. Which is why I believe any one that puts in the effort deserves the rewards no matter if they are "skilled or unskilled".
    Some people are willing to 'work for it anymore' ... Korean auto workers, Indian computer programmers, Chinese textile workers to name a few ...

    The American Dream is about making oppurtunities available. But it is also about working towards your goal with the freedom to achieve it
    Are you implying that the US should cut taxes, ban lawsuits, ease environmental and labor regulations etc. such that American workers are once again 'free' to compete equally on a global basis ? I'm not trying to be facetious - this question is fundamental to the competitiveness of American workers 'skilled and unskilled'. It also implies that American workers need to put forth 25-35% MORE effort than their Korean / Indian / Chinese counterparts just to break even on on the additional American costs of taxes, lawsuits, environmental and labor regulation compliance. An the absence of changes along the above lines, this further implies that 'skilled and unskilled' American workers simply cannot ever be competitive with their global counterparts in any industry that those global counterparts choose to target ... which in turn leads to a conclusion that Americans spending 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars to obtain a degree in a field that global counterparts choose to target will never be able to command pay rates sufficient to achieve the 'American Dream' (based on their own merits / productivity / value added at least).

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp
    I actually quit college because of the debt factor. It made no sense to be way over my head in debt before I even had a job. I did not have parents to fall back on. I work with a girl who has a bacholars degree from the University of Michigan. I do not have a degree and still make more than she does.
    I can relate. I went to college and was ONE SINGLE PART-TIME SEMESTER SHORT of meeting my degree's requirements, and had to quit because of lack of money. And that's considering that I'd entered college with sophomore status, and had a $15,000/yr scholarship, and I STILL couldn't afford college!!! My school was a private liberal arts school that raised tuition $3,000/yr but never raised scholarships, and never provided any additional scholarships to cover room/board, which was a good $8,000/yr. I didn't qualify for any financial aide beyond the generic drop-in-the-bucket Stafford loan. I made $6-8/hr at shitty dead-end jobs(JOBS THAT I DIDN'T NEED BRAIN CELLS NOR A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA FOR!), and that wasn't enough to cover living expenses + the $10,000/yr+ I needed for tuition/board. You'd think that my workaholicism, good grades, and motivation would impress an employer for an internship/better job, but nah they wanted someone with experience and I had none. When I quit college, I had almost $20,000 in debt($11,000 owed on Stafford loans, and the rest was an unpaid tuition balance that I didn't have loans to cover) and nothing to show for it!!! Where did I work after I quit college?...Was it an internship or job relevant to my major?...Was it even a job that utilized my high school diploma? NO!...I worked at a grocery store and retail for $8/hr, which was less than I'd made FOUR YEARS EARLIER at the commisioned retail sales job I'd held during high school! Trust me I spent eons seeking a better job, but there never seemed to be any openings and/or employers willing to give someone with no relevant experience a chance, and eventually I had to take ANYTHING because the bills started to pile up(not that the $8/hr job did much to chip away at the bills though). Then what was the point of devoting three hard years of debt, effort to studying, and sacrificing work hours, if I wasn't going to use my education or even be able to complete it??

    By the way, Vamp--you were very lucky to find a job that paid decently!! I'm assuming you meant a job other than dancing? But either way, dancing pays better than most new graduates' salaried jobs, too--and it doesn't require any educational level at all! Just curious, what field do you work in(is it credit related? because you seem very knowledgable about the credit scoring system)? In your case, I can see where finishing a costly degree wouldn't be absolutely necessary.

    It is all because of the current college/economic situation--not enough aide for students, banks raising credit standsards to thus cut back on the "buy now, pay later" opportunities for students, hard to find decent job that utilizes my education, etc-- that I was put in debt with no degree to show for it, thus turning me to stripping. I started stripping so that I could pay off the unpaid tuition balance uncovered by loans, so that I could avoid having it referred to collections(which would ruin my credit and further ruin my progressing through life!), and so that I could return to college and finally get the degree I'd worked so hard for. I just graduated in December and I don't have a job in my field yet, but hey at least I have the degree so that's a start! I'm interning/volunteer for politics during the day, and dancing at night to pay the bills.

    My male friend M--K had a similar situation as me, but minus the heavy debt and inability to complete his degree. After college, no job would hire him and he was stuck working at the Acme job he'd held throughout college. This made him very embarrassed to admit to people of his age what he did for a living, thus plummeting his self-esteem and hurting his ability to interact with girls/potential dates. It took him TWO AND A HALF YEARS after graduating before he found a job that did more for his resume than Acme did, and even that job only required a high school diploma, and it paid slightly less than Acme!! He only took this job to have something diverse/better on his resume, as a "stepping stone" job, but the company went downhill and they laid him off less than a year later. It's taken up until now, nearly 4yrs after graduation, before he's landed better jobs but they are all temp gigs and they've all paid less than $20/hr. He can't afford to move outta home, but at least he has that option to live there(my parents kicked me out when I involuntarily quit college, partly because they didn't realize how hard-luck my job/money situation was and thought it was more in my control than it was). Witnessing his bad jobsearch experiences firsthand made me even more unconfident that I'd be able to find something in my field, especially since I had a few extra obstacles than M--K did. That's why I'm very thankful that dancing is an opportunity for me, because without it, I probably wouldn't be very far in life right now! LOL.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    Some people are willing to 'work for it anymore' ... Korean auto workers, Indian computer programmers, Chinese textile workers to name a few ...



    Are you implying that the US should cut taxes, ban lawsuits, ease environmental and labor regulations etc. such that American workers are once again 'free' to compete equally on a global basis ? I'm not trying to be facetious - this question is fundamental to the competitiveness of American workers 'skilled and unskilled'. It also implies that American workers need to put forth 25-35% MORE effort than their Korean / Indian / Chinese counterparts just to break even on on the additional American costs of taxes, lawsuits, environmental and labor regulation compliance. An the absence of changes along the above lines, this further implies that 'skilled and unskilled' American workers simply cannot ever be competitive with their global counterparts in any industry that those global counterparts choose to target ... which in turn leads to a conclusion that Americans spending 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars to obtain a degree in a field that global counterparts choose to target will never be able to command pay rates sufficient to achieve the 'American Dream' (based on their own merits / productivity / value added at least).
    If I was implying all of that I would have just said that. When I said the American dream is about making opportunities available i meant just that. Opportunities for everyone. No matter who you are in this country you have a chance to become more than what you were yesterday. I pointed out my own situation as an example. It is what makes America the greatest country in the world. I think sometimes in these discussions we talk about so much that is wrong with America we loose sight of what makes it great.

    Aside from that, what you stated above is the very reason I think globalism needs to be balanced. It creates an environment where who ever is the lowest bidder gets the work til everyone is working for nothing. How do we balance it? I dont have all the answers. But giving companies incentives to keep the work here at home would be a start. Instead our government gives incentives to ship work overseas.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    By the way, Vamp--you were very lucky to find a job that paid decently!! I'm assuming you meant a job other than dancing? But either way, dancing pays better than most new graduates' salaried jobs, too--and it doesn't require any educational level at all! Just curious, what field do you work in(is it credit related? because you seem very knowledgable about the credit scoring system)? In your case, I can see where finishing a costly degree wouldn't be absolutely necessary.


    Philly i do consider myself very lucky. I started working customer service over the phone for GE in their credit card division. At that time almost anyone who had a clean background and worked hard could get a job there. I worked my way up the ladder. They trained me well in selling techniques. I was promoted to middle management. After a few years there I started working for the small financial institution I work for now. I started as a teller to get my foot in the door. Once again I have worked my way up the ladder without a college degree. I am learning the lending field and with the sales techniques I learned at GE I will soon be a full loan officer.

    When I first had to quit school I thought that was it. I was doomed to low level jobs. But I still felt it was better than being in debt. I had no one to fall back on but myself. So the jobs I did have I worked hard and climbed the ladder. It can be done. The girl I mention with the degree has no sales skills at all and it is why she doesn't seem to go far. I have tried to help her but that's another story. lol

    Congrats on your degree!
    Last edited by Vamp; 05-07-2006 at 07:09 PM.

  12. #12
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Instead our government gives incentives to ship work overseas.
    this was exactly what I was talking about. The US gov't and state govt's certainly create incentives for US companies to ship work overseas when the fed/state/local tax rates, lawsuit verdicts, environmental regulations, labor / workplace regulations etc. increase the US company's total cost of doing business in the USA far above the cost of having it done overseas - and that's before the subject of comparative worker skill / work ethic / pay rates / benefit costs is even discussed.

    In truth I don't have any answers to the 'globalism' issues that can preserve the American Dream as our parents and grandparents knew it at least. But in that regard nobody else does either. The 'Genie' of globalism was let out of the bottle in the '90's, and there's no way to get the Genie back in ! This also virtually guarantees that anybody who plans on doing a job in America that is also being done by global competitors will eventually either be paid at a rate near that which the global competitors' workers are receiving, or that American will be out of a job.

    Back to the topic of this thread, this means that future college students had better do some hard research into the global future of the profession they plan to 'major' in, and not waste their time and money preparing for a job that an Indian / Chinese / Eastern European graduate is willing to do for the equivalent of US$10 an hour - even if that particular field happens to be what they prefer to do career-wise. There simply is no way to continue to make financially viable opportunities available for American graduates in fields that are becoming dominated by offshore low labor / taxes / environmental / workplace / liability etc. costs.

    One basic tenet of Globalism is that when a country globalizes its economy, it gives up the opportunity to do things that other countries are 'better at' (with 'better' referring to the total cost of doing business including all of the above stuff), but also gets the opportunity to concentrate on those things that it does 'better' than other countries. Unfortunately, lately at least, the things that America does 'better' than other countries results in a really short list ... creative financing, weapons development, moviemaking, think tanks, spying, farming (running out of ideas already) ... America is also good at 'inventing' new concepts/technologies and bringing them from the brainstorm phase to the working prototype phase and sometimes to the very first generation commercial product phase ...
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-07-2006 at 04:29 PM.

  13. #13
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Instead of a tide to raise all boats, it is a race to the bottom.

  14. #14
    PhillyDancer1982
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp
    When I first had to quit school I thought that was it. I was doomed to low level jobs. But I still felt it was better than being in debt. I had no one to fall back on but myself. So the jobs I did have I worked hard and climbed the ladder. It can be done. The girl I mention with the degree has no sales skills at all and it is why she doesn't seem to go far. I have tried to help her but that's another story. lol
    Yeah, when I quit school for the time being a few years ago, I thought I was doomed to low level jobs as well, but unfortuantely I didn't have the luck or sales skills that you had, so yeah I WAS doomed to low level jobs. If it weren't for me "breaking the vicious cycle" by exotic dancing, I'd STILL be in retail, just probably at Strawbridge's insteada Boscov's, or Acme insteada Super Fresh(dead-end jobs tend to use/abuse you as an employee, which would usually result in me quitting or getting fired, looking for a better job, then after a good amount of time of not find a better job, just surrendering to the same exact job but at a different chain). Yeah I don't have any sales skills either, the only reason I can sell lap dances I think is based only on my looks!(cause when I compete in clubs with similar-caliber girls, I'm never a top earner!)

    For me, my debt had already been earned. I had all of the loans that I'd ever qualified for, which trust me wasn't much, only $11,000 total. The rest of the debt was simply a tuition balance that didn't qualify for financial aide or loans, so it went uncovered. This uncovered tuition balance was owed directly to my college, so they prevented me from continuing to sign up for more classes until it was paid to 0. When I (involuntarily, mandatorily) dropped out, I was only a few credits short. I only owed the school about $6000 total to pay off the outstanding tuition balance and pay-in-full for the last few credits I needed. NO $6000 is NOT much money at all, but for someone who was making $5,000 gross income/yr working almost FULL TIME even during the schoolyear, it was a fortune because it was money that I'd never have if I continued working cheap jobs that never paid enough to even afford basic costs of living.

    A year later, I've graduated and the only money I owe to anyone for college is $10,600 in low-interest Stafford loans, but to be honest I'm glad I have them because they are helping me to establish credit. And the interest rate is low, about 3.6%, which is less than the interest on one of my savings accounts.

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    Featured Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Between GE and where I work now I worked at Walmart. All the horror stories are true.

    I worked at Walmart for six months. When I left they offered me a management position. I turned it down. I know the kind of treatment managers get there and no amount of money is worth that.

    I will give you a piece of advice. No matter where you work be honest, gain people's trust, and take responsiblity even when it isnt your fault. That is half of my sales skills. I have always trouble shoot problems where I work and find ways to fix it even when I didn't make the problem. That establishes trust on the part of a client. Once they trust you; you can sell them anything. Responsiblity comes back into play here again. I am ethical. I will not ever sell something to someone if i know it is a scam or not for them.

    You are lucky as well. Many clients I see now come in with triple the student loans you have. Your debt is managable. I hope it all works out for you. There is nothing wrong with dancing. Hell if i had a better body I would do it! But if you want out there is always a way out. Cause if i can find my way anyone can. Good Luck!

  16. #16
    PhillyDancer1982
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Thank you! Yeah I'm voluntarily campaigning for politics right now, so that I'll have some hobbies/skills to discuss on a resume(although I was told to focus on the skills utilized, and not mention the political affiliation).

    I can relate to your Wal-Mart experience!! Four years ago, I worked at Target. They were the most manipulative assholes of retail! Basically it was my first(sophomore) year of college and I was put in all the 200 and 300 level courses, but I needed a part-time gig so they had me putting away clothes and finger-spacing the merchandise on the racks(Yes, finger-spacing! how tedious and ridiculous!!! THIS is what my "distinguished AP scholar" status and dean's list status qualified me for! sarcasm). They would schedule me 6pm-10pm, but only on rare occasions would I ever leave the store before 12. They kept me longer than closing, and manipulated me into staying to clean up and make sure every freaking piece of clothing was finger-spaced evenly. It got to the point that I wouldn't have enough time for my studies, and I would be cranky from not getting enough sleep.

    I was taking Calculus II that semester and I'd gotten A's on all my tests up until I started working at Target, then I got a f-ing 67%!! At that point my grade depended solely on the final, because the professor made a deal that if you aced the final, it'd replace any other test as your final grade for the class. I had a music class final the same day as the Calc final. The night before, Target had the f-ing nerve to make me stay until nearly 1am to do stupid bullshit!! At that point, I was convinced that I would fail my exam and be stuck in Calc II forever. Somehow, despite lack of sleep and really struggling with the exam, I got a solid A so that's what my grade became...but that kinda luck doesn't happen twice!

    Later that summer, I took a rigorous summer school schedule...calc-based Physics concurrently with Organic Chemistry. And summer classes meant longer class hours, and everything crammed into a much-shorter period of time than a normal semester. During the 3 weeks b/t semesters, I told Target I could work ANY hours and preferred close to a full-time 40-hr workweek, but what did I get?...24-hr workweeks, with the only shifts being during my nights, which interfered with my social life! Then when I started summer classes, they seemed to only schedule me during weeknights, esp nights that fell right before an exam. They never scheduled me Saturdays or Sundays(unless it was Sunday night closing!) when I had free time that wouldn't interfere with my studies.

    One week was the worst; I had a Physics test on Tues, O. Chem test on Thurs, and my friend was graduating on Fri. What does Target schedule me?...Mon night, Wed night, and Friday night! How nice! No weekend daytimes, no other nights of the week! Meanwhile my mom REFUSED to let me quit, even if they interfered with my studies to the point that I'd fail classes and Target would cost me more than they were paying(stupid on my mom's part, but she didn't know the whole situation), so I *tried* to get fired by calling outta work all week. Didn't work! All that happened, was they put me on hold for a very long time until I finally hung up and hoped that word got passed to manager. I was on a prepaid cell phone too, back when cell phone minutes were a lot more expensive!!! That Friday, they kept me on hold and my mom yelled at me to just "go to work," so I ended up rushing in the rain to drive to work and on the way there, got into my very first accident...with my PARENTS' old truck. At that point I called them up and said in an angry voice what happened, and that there was NO WAY I was coming to work now, and the girl had the nerve to say in an insincere monotone, "Uh, hold on, let me put a manager on the phone" and I said "NO! You did this before, kept me on hold for over 15mins each time, just tell them I QUIT!!!" and hung up!

    I heard Wal-Mart's the same way, if not worse. They did a spoof of Wal-Mart on the Simpsons, where the asshole manager locks them in the store after closing and makes them clean the whole store!(similar to my experience, but a little exaggerated) My friend worked at a Wal-Mart and got fired for "stealing" bottled water, simply because he took a sip of it as he was walking up to the registers to pay for it. Some snotty cashier shouted "you didn't pay for that yet," so he threw down a $5 bill(more than enough) and said "now I did," but I guess Wal-Mart didn't consider his $5 when they claimed that he "stole" it. God retail sucks these days!

  17. #17
    Featured Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    I posted this experience on another thread.

    During Christmas Walmart does lock their employees in. Our store closed at 10pm. They would lock all the exits. People trash the stores literally. We had to pick up the whole store. We also had to return all the merchandise back to the shelves before they would let us go. We were scheduled til 10pm we usually didn't leave til midnight on holidays. I did many differant jobs there. There were times I did not get a break at all for six hours straight. I was so exhausted at the end of the day I would just fall into bed. All that for $8.00 an hour. Many times I wanted to quit and just leave. But I needed the job.

  18. #18
    PhillyDancer1982
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Wow that is really abusive! Sounds even worse than Target. ALTHOUGH Target might be worse, considering that I rarely got out of work before 12 midnight on a NORMAL night, so who knows how late they'd make employees stay on nights during the holiday season? I only lasted at Target for a little over 2 months(April to June), because of the inconvenience/stress that they caused me with school, and basically everything that I already stated in previous replies to this post. So maybe Target IS just as bad, in not worse, than Wal-Mart during Christmas season?...who knows. Also, I wasn't making $8/hr...I was only given $7.45/hr, and that's considering that I had prior retail experience that had generally paid better.

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    Hm. I'm above average on my debt, even though for the first year I was fully funded. I went to a private, well-known college.

    Currently, I'm working for a nonprofit and not doing so hot financially. I'm planning on going back to school to get my Ph.D. to teach. So yes, Ann Coulter, I'll be one more "liberal parasite." The money that students pay in tuition isn't just going to professors. Professors really don't make scads and scads of money. If you want to make scads of money in academia, you get into administration. Our president make $750,000 a year.

    I guess I don't feel sorely about my student loan debt because I knew going into college that my major (psychology) was going to be useless without further schooling. I went to college for the "college experience" and moreover, to learn about things that I was really interested in.

    And I in a lot of debt? Sure. Would I do things differently and pick a major that guaranteed me a high paying job? Not one bit.

  20. #20
    PhillyDancer1982
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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    I think that's the difference between you and me, Prrfektwurld...we view student loan debt differently because of our very different outcomes. You majored in psychology and although you aren't making tons and tons of money at your nonprofit job, you at least found a relevant job to your field. Whereas for me, I didn't find shit. It's bad enough if you can't find a job above the level of Acme or Walmart--much less in your field--after you graduate. But for me, I didn't qualify for many loans at all, so in order to finish college, I needed to have a decent-paying job lined up for DURING college. I couldn't find an internship or a job that paid better than $7-8/hr...which isn't enough to cover college expenses if you don't qualify for any loans. Even after I started dancing and finished my degree, the "best" job I could land was an office temp job that didn't even pay a "full" $10/hr. So yeah, that's why I'm kinda bitter about paying my college all that money. Most students' colleges have programs to help them land an internship because it is required for graduation; whereas for me, an internship wasn't required and it was assumed that I would just do it on my own and fend for myself. I'm not the only alumni from my school who is bitter and is in the same situation...my friend M--K went to the same school, and was stuck at Acme(actually, he's still there, only part-time now) because he didn't find any better job at all until 2.5yrs after graduating.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Oh, I'm not in my field at all. There's not much you can do with a BA in psychology.

    Does your school have a career center? I'm currently meeting with a career counselor from my school to help me polish my resume and find jobs I want.

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    Default Re: Cost of college and young debt

    Quote Originally Posted by PhillyDancer1982
    ...I took a rigorous summer school schedule...calc-based Physics concurrently with Organic Chemistry....
    Are you crazy?? That has got to be the very worst combination I can imagine, lol--I would have gone insane and started assaulting fat ladies and their kids in that Target...

    Getting back on topic (sorry), I just looked up tuition at my Alma Mater--31,860$ a year!!!

    Fortunately I got a full scholarship--and before any of you scream about taxpayers footing the bill for DJ training at that rate, it was from the private university funds.

    But the university I went to was one of the very worst as far as realistic training for high-paying jobs after graduation--being far more oriented towards preparing its graduates for further immersion in the academic world. Though graduates do tend to be snapped up by firms impressed by prestigious degrees, before they train them in 'real world' matters.

    Unless, that is, they were foolish enough to major in Art History! I did take Calculus and Physics, though--they made us do that there, in a futile attempt to balance our background in preparation for future life. I will say this--it trained my brain, lol!

    It would seem apparent that one of the few viable methods of financing a good college education is stripping, these days!

    Sorry you had to suffer, PhillyDancer--I admire your spirit...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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