Originally Posted by dlabtot
No... sick would be saying it is OK.
Try to add a little more to the conversation there bud.
Originally Posted by dlabtot
No... sick would be saying it is OK.
Try to add a little more to the conversation there bud.



what i found notable was that iraqis dont seem to care about this scandal. they take it as a given.





I added my opinion, and I'm not surprised that you don't like hearing it.Originally Posted by Deogol
Too bad.
Given all the embedded press and the sensitivity of the newly formed government in Iraq, this is at best a dubious assertion.Without saying it in specifics, for obvious reasons, their letters indicate to me that alot of our service people are being ordered to commit war crimes.
Your friend's personal agenda aside, reenlistment in theater in combat units is staggeringly high. As of last August, according to the NY Post:My friend who has returned says the vast majority of good soliders want out of the service or at least this war. He told me it is because they do not wish to continue having to do awful things that go against all that was taught to them about being an honorable solider. He also said that anyone who thinks this war is over anything other than oil has been bamboozled.
It's a separation of regular forces from Reserve and Guard forces that makes up the debate about enlistment and retention.* Every one of the Army's 10 divisions — its key combat organizations — has exceeded its re-enlistment goal for the year to date. Those with the most intense experience in Iraq have the best rates. The 1st Cavalry Division is at 136 percent of its target, the 3rd Infantry Division at 117 percent.
Among separate combat brigades, the figures are even more startling, with the 2nd Brigade of the 2nd Infantry Division at 178 percent of its goal and the 3rd Brigade of the 4th Mech right behind at 174 percent of its re-enlistment target.
This is unprecedented in wartime. Even in World War II, we needed the draft. Where are the headlines?
* What about first-time enlistment rates, since that was the issue last spring? The Army is running at 108 percent of its needs.
The difference between the Marines involved in this incident and the savages strapping bombs to people for detonation in marketplaces is that at least the Marines will be tried and sentenced by the military through the UCMJ. Zarqawi isn't interested in any of that--civil war is his goal, as evidenced by the continued reduction in attacks on hard targets (US troops) and the radical increase in killings of soft targets (Iraqi civilians, particularly Shiites).
Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
Ummm, you don't know me or my friends so that statement is an awful big stretch at best and an incorrect assumption at worst. My friends do not appear to me to have a personal agenda other than to express to me their experiences while in country. FYI, my one friend who has returned home due to permnant injury has told me to my face that he has witnessed acts that are deemed war crimes which have in fact been ordered by chain of command and he has reported these violations. Not that the current governing powers did anything or cared one wit , according to what he has told me. I suggested that he should go to the press but he is fears backlash from the Bush government. He will need medical care of his injury for the rest of his life and so he can't really afford to rock the boat anymore than he has by reporting the code violations. If you want to call not wanting to lose medical care that will keep him alive an agenda well that I won't argue against.Originally Posted by Casual Observer
Now certainly there are plenty of good well meaning military and government people out there. However, there are also plenty bad people too. It's just that war seems to bring out the worst in the bad ones and this attack is a perfect example.
Last edited by Vaughn; 06-01-2006 at 04:17 PM. Reason: removing flame-ish comments
It doesn't mitigate the terrible loss of human life, but these sort of incidents always happen during a war. My Lai, for example. War is awful, and can never be waged perfectly.
I really don't buy the notion, however, that we're not seeing shiny happy Iraqis wearing I Heart America tshirts because of journalistic bias. If anything, depicting the war over there as a resounding success would be a huge boost to America's morale and perhaps even its economics. The Iraqis don't want us there; you can't graft on a democracy to a culture that's irreconcilable to secularism.





That's the crux of it; whenever these things come out, the higher-ups blame it on 'a few bad apples', who act as fall guys, and yes, they should be punished because even if they are given orders to commit crimes, those aren't lawful orders so they are not obliged to obey them...but the real war criminals are the leaders who are responsible for these policies.Originally Posted by Vaughn
Another alleged massacre is being reported by the BBC. It starts at about 2:20 in the video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/tv.../news10_nb.asx
Well of course, you called me a sicko over something I have repeatedly said isn't right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deogol
Try to add a little more to the conversation there bud.
I added my opinion, and I'm not surprised that you don't like hearing it.
Too bad.
I think I was pretty polite about it - but hey - if you are socially dysfunctional - what can be said?
Something to think about.
At a time, the Palestinians (you know - the kind that voted the terrorist group Hamas into power) declared the Israeli's massacred people in Jenin.
Who surprisingly clears Israeli troops of false claims? The UN.
U.N. report: No massacre in Jenin
UNITED NATIONS (AP) — A U.N. report released Thursday found no evidence to support Palestinian claims that Israeli forces massacred up to 500 people in the Jenin refugee camp, but it criticized both sides for putting civilian lives at risk.





OK, you can understand that. And that's sick. Normal people generally would be moved to empathize with the innocent victims rather than the killers.Originally Posted by deogol





Gentlemen, please...
I think you are misunderstanding each other.
I, too can understand why someone would want to go on a killing spree--as I said, I felt a similar impulse myself, even if the guy wasn't what you'd call innocent by a long shot.
But he wasn't the guy who shot my friend, and I would have gone to jail for crushing his skull like an eggshell--and never seen my mom alive again, which is why I put down the fucking barstool.
I can even understand why someone would go on a killing spree that included small children hiding under beds, and guys in wheelchairs--but that doesn't mean I would ever condone or forgive it.
There are some sick fucks out there.
A few of them get to wear uniforms and carry powerful assault weapons. A very few of them could conceivably acheive higher rank, and be in a position to order unnecessary killings. I'm not saying it happened in this case--I don't have the facts--but certainly it's happened before, and not just in the SS elite divisions.
I don't think deogol is condoning it at all when he says he understands how or why it could happen.
I'm not taking his side against you at all, Dlabtot--I understand where you are coming from as well. Anyone shooting kids and guys in wheelchairs deserves to be punished, immediately and without restraint, unless it can be proven the kids had bombs in their toychest.
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
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"improper" behavior by US troops probably not isolated events.
1. don’t know details but group of maybe 10 marines committed original act.
2. different group cleaned up bodies and lied about the circumstances found
3. number of other credible allegations: bbc tape, ..
the people living in area probably new IED was buried there. Takes time to bury, and people talk.
No the people could not have done anything about it. The people who call anonymous tips to phone lines are found dead. Government infested with “insurgents/terrorists.”
Fighting a faceless enemy that plants bombs, without being able to fight back is no doubt extremely frustrating, but it is utterly wrong to kill random people in their homes for it.
In the old days if a city’s civilians resisted an occupation the town would be leveled. Reminded of a US general’s quote occupying the south after the civil war.
“Hereafter every time the telegraph wire was cut we would burn a house and every time a train was fired upon we would hang a man, and we would continue to do this until every house was burned and every man hanged between Decatur and Bridgeport.”
Believe it or not, war has become more civilized.
al -zarqiwi, yes, has far, far worse morals about killing people indiscriminately
claims in jenin, yes were vastly overstated.
Some people taking a little extreme views, imo.
Yup, I have been following that and the other one too. That makes three now and mark my words there will be more reported before all is said and done. I understand that these things are often part of war but I also think that when a war is based on false pretenses that these incidents are much more commonplace.Originally Posted by dlabtot
What I have been hearing from my enlisted friends is that alot of this stuff is being done by people who joined up for the wrong reasons such as revenge and or racism. After listening and reading their comments that (with a few exceptions) the vast majority military personal who were enlisted prior to 9/11 want out of the middle east or think we should never have gone back there in the first place.
According to my friends many of long term military people seem to believe that we are causing more harm than good in terms of US national security and to the citizens of Iraq. Considering all my current and previous enlisted friends are either in the middle east now or have been during the past 4 years I tend to believe and trust what they have to say on the subject has more than a little validity (sp?)
There is only one massacre that is under question.
One of the two false ones was ruled crossfire between the troops and the insurgents.
The other one were photographs taken by Reuters of civilians killed BY THE TERRORISTS and re-hashed into civilians killed by US troops. This story has since been withdrawn by the media once they realized it was their own pictures taken under circumstances they know of.
So don't get your hopes up the US military is full of people wandering around taking pot shots at people. Fucking disgusting.
Was that "fucking disgusting" comment directed at me? If so, chill man. There is no need to get rude. I am just repeating what I have been told by actual service men and woman who have or are now serving in Iraq.
I personally know LOTS of wonderful people who serve due to the fact that I grew up in a base town. I have no beef with the military as a whole. My beef is with those who do not serve in an honorable fashion. That goes double for government officials who serve the country without honor.
^^^ Glad to hear it.![]()
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