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Thread: Where do we draw the line

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    God/dess krchab99's Avatar
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    Default Where do we draw the line

    Okay I think it is time we talk openly as strippers about what it means to be a dancer and what are responitly is as far as how are actions set the tone for how we are treated by the custmer and how dose how the other girls actions in the club effect our treament as well as mangements responiablity for setting tone in the club. I just moved to a new area from ga to ky and i noticed that the clubs here are not what i am used to my eyes have been opened to a whole new outlook on things. This got me to thinking what dose it mean to be a stripper are we enteriners to provide a fanstasy or is the club a place to for a custmer to get more then a show or to solictie prostition. I know what stripping is supposed to be have been in the clubs that run beutifuly it was not till recently i have seen the other side of the game. I have noticed the debate on stripper web about nasty girls and up until recently did not relize it was this large of a problem. I am suggesting we talk on here about what is okay where do we draw the line at making a dollar. Do we as dancers set the tone for how get treated in vip i mean if you let a guy put a dollar down the front of you thong and then get pissed he trys to grop you in vip do you share in some of the responsiabily for that becuse of the way you carry yourself? dose the mangement share in the respoiablity in how there dancers are seen by custermers and what there custys expect when the come to there club? What part dose the custmer play in all this what makes a custy think its okay to suggest to a dancer that they play hide the weeni in the vip room somewhere he got the idea that was okay to suggest?

    I am not putting any judgements in my post i simply belive we should talk about these issues becuse right now i am at a loss for words at the club enviroments i have recently been in all insight is welcome.

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    Featured Member sexy_celeste's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I think its shared responsibility. The guys know its wrong to ask, but get a thrill cause its "naughty"
    If there werent extras girls, yeah I think that the problem would decrease, but you'd still get guys asking.
    I hired 5 new girls over the last 2 week, and EVERYONE of them was asked for extras, custies trying the new girls, see.

    If I catch a girl doing the wrong thing she is fired. No questions asked (I dont care about her sick mum, rent etc) go to a brothel.

    Just my 2c

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    Senior Member naughtylilminx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I think in some states it depends where you work. I know in Rhode Island we're known for high contact but theres a couple clubs that management allows it and even more. If your going to do extras and stuff then you need to go to a club that has those kind of girls and management. As far as custys, they look at us like thats what we're there for. And the guys that dont try are just too shy or too scared. I may be man hating cuz of the messed up situation i've been in but men are pigs and 98% of them dont have any respect for women regardless what she may have done on stage. Its something to be expected I guess when you start this business. As far as your responsibilities I think the only one you have is yourself. If you can allow some guy groping you in VIP then thats your thing but know when to draw the line when you dont feel comfortable because you cant put a price on your self dignity. Also you should have the respect for your co-workers because they're there for the same reason, to make money.

    thats all i have to say about that...lol

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    Featured Member red red red's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Quote Originally Posted by naughtylilminx
    As far as your responsibilities I think the only one you have is yourself.

    Also you should have the respect for your co-workers because they're there for the same reason, to make money.
    My thoughts exactly. There's no "we" drawing this line. It's "you."
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I don't know, personally I don't think the dollar in the thong is here or there. If "groping" is standard, then the guy will expect to grope you. I don't see that accept a dollar in your thong should impact that expectation (incidentally, I have done that - I have let guys put dollars down the front of my thong with their mouths). I think you bear "responsibility" if you tell or strongly imply (outside of the usual "you will have fun") that the guys is allowed to do things he is not. Outside of that I don't responsibility comes into it. I think guys, by and large, know the rules. I don't think they are actually confused or thinking "but I put the dollar down there... surely that means I bought it... the dollar is much dirtier than my hands - what's her problem?"
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    Veteran Member metal_n_mitsu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    There has to be a line! We are not hookers, Jesus. I was working at this full nude club in Phoenix and the law there is that after 1am you can't take your bottoms off, just top unless you're on stage in which case you have to have bottoms on before you step off the bottom step of the stage. Well it was about 3am just before closing and I was giving a guy a lap dance and I had taken my top off, but not my bottoms. Well the girl on the couch next to me was grinding on this guy fully nude, I guess she f*cks the bouncers or something cuz they "don't see her" doing it. Well the guy was trying to talk me into taking my bottoms off and I was like "No, it's against the law, I'm not doing it". And he got all pissed and pulled the "Well that girl right there is doing it". I got so pissed that I grabbed his 20 off the couch and got up and said "Yeah and if you give her another 20 she might f*ck you!" Well she heard me and we ended up getting in this huge debate/fight about trashy strippers and how she's ruining my business by being a skank and not following rules.
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    Veteran Member metal_n_mitsu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Haha sorry one more story, this is gross. We had this girl at the club one time who was REALLY nasty, all the girls wanted to kill her. THe management(or lack therof) for a while was really lazy and hardly ever around. Well the would actually put things in her pussy on stage(i.e. water bottles, lighters, her fingers, etc) AND while she was giving lap dances she would finger herself and then stick her fingers in the guys mouth!! AND it gets better, she would bite their dick through their pants too! All for a 20 bucks! Jesus Christ. And of course all the guys who see her do that stuff are dissappointed with any lap dance we give because we're not masturbating for them! Ok, done venting lol
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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    No matter how clean of a dancer you are, there will always be girls that are willing to be prostitutes to make more money. There will always be customers who want sex from strippers. It seems to me enforcing that clubs "keep it clean" is like trying to force the police to prevent people from using marajuana.

    Not everyone has respect for the laws, and there are more than a few people who will break the law if they are comfortable with the situation (ever gone over the speed limit?).

    The real responcibility is with the owners/managers of the clubs. Yeah, like they care that the girls have to do extra's to make enough money to pay the house fees and tip outs.

    The people of Enron and Worldcom didn't care that they were able to throw the entire US economy into a tailspin by lying to everyone about their company. Why would you expect a strip club to be more willing to follow that law than a telecommunications company or an energy company?


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    Veteran Member metal_n_mitsu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Dollar bills down your thong with their mouths!?!? That's DISGUSTING! I'm sure others agree with me
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I find the guy's who put bills in their mouths somewhat more disgusting, but ^^^ this is just another example of you concerning yourself WAY TOO MUCH with what other girls are doing. If you find it disgusting, don't do it. I don't mind.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    God/dess krchab99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Its not that we are concerning are selvs to much with what other girls are doing its that nasty girls can make a bad work enviroment for everyone. espically if you get to many in one club.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I get what you are saying, but what is "nasty" is relative to what is standard in the club/region. Like it would be stupid for girls who are used to a topless environment to come here and talk about gross it is that we take off our panties - that is just how it is done here. So if there are "too many in one club" maybe the problem is NOT that they are "nasty" but that you are (relatively) a prude. I don't mean that pejoratively - I've been the prude at more than one club. Honestly, though, I think you can get TOO worked up over it. My experience tells me that you can still work, hold to your standards and make money (within reason - I mean, you don't have to straddle a guy's face on stage to get tips, but I don't think you viably work by giving airdances in a contact club)

    In my experience the "problem" with this type of club is that you simply GET USED TO IT and it is no longer a big deal, and then it is pure inertia that is stopping you from doing the same thing.
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    Senior Member naughtylilminx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I think to each their own just keep it within the clubs normal conduct. Like at my club its topless but a few girls will flash a kitty here and there. So thats whats known, some girls do it some dont. But there isnt anyone right now givin head in the VIP rooms and us girls are still makin decent money, so dont come to this club thinkin your gonna give extras left and right and not have a problem with the girls who already been working here. I dont think its nasty to flash your kitten but I wouldnt do it. Shit if that was the case then I would dance nude and make way more money! lol do u see how the club enviorment has alot to do with it?
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    Veteran Member pipermarau's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    i think that its the standard that has screwed up the work environment. i don't think contact should be the standard. i think girls should be doing the right thing rather than what they know they can get away with. we have problems with the custies because those girls let things "slide" for an extra few bucks and a ruined reputation. the men come to expect more from dances and it isn't like the bouncers and managers want to work any harder stop it, right? they don't for the most part. sometimes they find humor in what the extras girls are doing so they let it happen. if we as dancers came together and made the new standard less hands on then the men would have to deal with it. it won't be the death of business. they will just have to crack down and got a prostitute instead of trying to transform us into hookers because its "easier". they don't have to talk us into anything we don't want to do and i would rather work harder to get the dances than be guilted into having sex with a total stranger.

    last night at my club a few of us girls were sitting in the break room talking about how the clubs have changed over the years. i made a comment about my club and why i quit working there a year ago and when i finally came back it had cleaned up and i was seeing less used condoms on the floor and how great that was. then another dancer made a shocking point,

    "maybe these guys are just barebacking it. who would dare bare back a stripper? ewwe! don't these guys know if we are fucking you then we are doing it to everyone else and if we are not using condoms..."

    then she got quiet. i started to think about the REAL threat that comes with extras girls. stds. my friend at work calls them "critters" i've gotten past the point that extras girls are ruining the reputation of the rest of us do-gooders and messing up the balance of good and evil in one small building, but they are at risk in infecting an entire community with a lethal or just irritating disease by not taking care of themselves and allowing just anything to happen to them for a few extra bucks. thats why no one wants to bee a hooker, the angry pimps, and the "critters" aside from the possible murder or beating, rape and drugs.

    the reason i don't like extras girls is simply this:

    my boyfriend barebacked an extras girl that i worked with and got a disease from her, he didn't have the presence of mind to think about it and passed it on, and on, and on. she did the same. how many other people is this happening to? they put themselves at risk for $$ when they could get something life threatening, or something that could prevent them from ever having kids or even getting another sex partner (lets assume she's honest) and is stuck because one night she laid a guy for $100. is that worth it?

    i draw the line and looking. i don't like strangers touching me, i'm not about to get something worse that what i'm stuck with now (because of this dishonesty and prostitution going on), and my dignity is worth far more than my light bill. i can call my dad and ask him for cash if i need to or just pay it late. i know i think too much, but sometimes knowledge can be power in the club. if girls start to care more about their bodies, maybe the guys will wind up accepting an air dance instead of pushing for more. i'm used to being asked, but doing it is where it is no longer right, in any light.

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    Featured Member Lyssa Lynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    The guys are going to try whatever they can get away with..and when SusieQ let's him finger fuck her or she "french kisses" him or gladly strokes his cock in her hand...he's gonna try and do that with me. Uggh! What Susie doesn't realize is if we all drew a line..some contact okay, but no freaking "extras"...the guys would stop expecting that. (sure they will still ask, but if we all said "eww gross, I'm not a whore") They'd get the point that those things are truly unacceptable in a strip club, and settle down a bit. They'd still come in and spend their money...but keep it on an entertainment level!!

    As it stands now, Susie has set the bar really fucking high (or low depending how you look at it) and I have to compete with that. While I don't mind some contact, I do end up putting up with more than I would like too in order to maintain my income. Which in turn leads Mary, (who's truly virginal) down the same path...it's a domino effect.

    I don't really know if there is a solution. My club over the years went from clean ass air dances to grinding and gropping and SusieQ getting fucked upstairs!! I wish it were different but sadly I'm just along for the ride. I still appreciate the great income and freedom this job gives...

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    Featured Member Guenevere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    It seems much easier for a club to slide into a dirty work environment than to clean up one. The problem is that the industry is overly saturated with entertainers. If you're not making money doing the job, and the job by it's definitions alone, then you shouldn't do the job. In the past, in my experience, the girls that were "going the extra mile" were fired. No warnings and no coming back. The problem I see now, here in Vegas especially, is that these girls can just as easily find another club that doesn't mind. The biggest problem I have with the industry in Vegas is that because there are so many clubs the girls can work wherever they want, if they don't want to follow the rules at this club then they just go to that one. Because of this, the management has gotten lax on extras and rules. If you've ever been to Vegas then you know, most places do not require a schedule, do not enforce the 6 hr min, do not hold a standard for decent work ethic (I say decent because that seems to be at least the standard in my experience), there are no penalties for anything anymore, these clubs are too busy trying to keep girls and not loose them to another club that they are letting them all get away with murder. Unfortunately I don't see it getting better, at least not here in Vegas.

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    God/dess PaigeDWinter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Who really knows how it started. Once upon a time, a nude woman was art. A dancing nude woman was still art. Men had respect. Did a dancer start doing extras? Did a customer start asking? Who knows which side started this chain reaction, but now we have men expecting it and dancings accepting it. The problem is, neither side of the fence is really trying to stop it. I mean in vast numbers... not just one or two people. If MANY less dancers stopped allowing extras to be acceptable, it would send a HUGE clue by four. And vice versa. If VAST numbers of customers stopped expecting it.... you see? But how to get a large number of extras girls to stop doing them? How to get many men to treat us like the amazing entertainers we really are? It's a tough job to take on.... and I personally dont see it happening anytime soon. Unfortunately. We can draw our own lines, but until it happens on a larger basis, it wont do much good.
    Last edited by PaigeDWinter; 07-22-2006 at 08:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    What it comes down to is this - you do what you are comfy with, period.

    If the girls are doing things you don't approve of, oh well - they must be okay with it or have (to them) a damn good reason to be doing those things for extra money. It's their choice and you WILL NOT change their mind.

    I am NOT NOT NOT saying I approve of extras, nor do I do them. But have some class, stay out of their seedy business, and bank on the fact that you are clean. I do it every day in a dirty extras club.

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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    What it comes down to is this - you do what you are comfy with, period.
    not meaning to play devil's advocate, but ...

    When doing what you're comfy with equals less than $10 an hour in earnings potential after tipouts, it's not a realistic option. You might as well take a 'straight job' at Costco or WalMart, where at least you don't have to take your clothes off, where stalkers won't be following you into the parking lot at closing time, and you are eligible for unemployment/workmen's comp ! You may not be facing this sort of very poor earnings potential in the absence of 'high mileage' in the particular city you dance in, but in lots of cities lots of girls are.

    The problem really stems from the fact that the strip club industry always plays to the 'lowest common denominator'. Except for the super-upscale show clubs which are selling status and 'safe' naughtyness to very affluent customers, all other clubs are basically competing against each other for the same base of 'regular guy' customers. Thus in any town with more than one club, if girls in one club provide more 'bang for the buck' it doesn't matter a bit what the girls in the other club decide to do ... sooner or later most of the town's base of 'regular guy' customers is going to migrate to the other club. This is a perfect example of a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' as the Hollywood Stereotype affects the expectations of 'regular guy' customers and as some girls are willing to fulfill those expectations.

    This is precisely the reason that I decided to get out of live dancing, because this is only going to get worse and worse as the economy gets worse, as customers have less money to spend, as dancers' earnings potential drops, and some girls will always be willing to 'go the extra mile' to maintain their income level.

    As to Paige's contention that a large number of girls agreeing to clean things up could actually have an impact, unfortunately I have lived through evidence to the contrary. Once upon a time a small but relatively clean club with 12 dancers welcomed a new dancer ... who didn't mind providing extras. The clean dancers managed to convince the clubowner to fire her once ... but discovered she was hired back again 2 weeks later and back to her old tricks (pun intended). In fact she brought a dancer friend who also didn't mind 'going the extra mile'. About 10 of the clean dancers gave the clubowner an ultimatum ... either the extras girls go or we go. After thinking about it for a minute, the clubowner fired all 10 of us clean dancers and picked up the phone. Before we could change, pack our stuff, and pick up our pay for private dance splits, girls from a club in a neighboring city started to arrive to take our place. Much later I asked the clubowner about his decision, and he made no qualms about telling me that time is money, that the extras girls were generating 3 times as much revenue for the club as the clean girls were, and that the club was actually at zero risk of legal problems since all the clubowner had to do if/when the club was eventually busted was to claim 'gee, officer, I had no idea what was going on in the VIP room !'. Eventually, the city passed a strict anti-dance club ordinance in response to the revolving door busts, and the club went bankrupt and closed altogether - completing the migration from clean dancers to dirty dancers to no dancers. Put another way, the clean dancers who protested went from poor earnings potential to no earnings potential.

    This little story is different from cities like Vegas because this particular small city didn't have any sort of stake in keeping clubs in business, thus the city council was willing to 'legislate' the club out of profitability and willing to prosecute / defend against legal appeals even though it eventually cost the taxpayers something like $100,000 in legal fees to close down this club. Vegas is an entirely different story ... it's 'Sin City' for God's sake where strip clubs are part of the city's personality ... not to mention that the clubowners have millions of dollars at their disposal to 'contribute' to co-operative city council members, DA's and cops ! IMHO cities like Vegas guarantee that the clubs are on a one way trip to an ever higher 'sleaze factor'.
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-22-2006 at 11:02 AM.

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    Featured Member red red red's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    What I'm wondering is whether the OP cares enough about extras girls to walk up to a few of them and personally let them know how "nasty" she thinks they are. Maybe if she were to do that and report back, there would be some new enlightenment to shed on what is, as far as I'm concerned right now, a moot subject.
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Quote Originally Posted by red red red
    What I'm wondering is whether the OP cares enough about extras girls to walk up to a few of them and personally let them know how "nasty" she thinks they are. Maybe if she were to do that and report back, there would be some new enlightenment to shed on what is, as far as I'm concerned right now, a moot subject.
    I tend to after they're done... I dont wanna scare off the customers. Though... I'd love to catch a girl giving a blowjob just once... so I can smack the back of her head in mid-suck. AAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAA!!!



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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    pfft. i work in a club full of whores. at any given night i could catch someone offering sex for money. it doesn't affect my money in the end. i either make a bunch of money off guys who don't want sex, or i do not. and honestly, plenty of nights those girls that offer sex cannot make money because guys that want sex are not always willing to pay for the specific sex-offering girls available.

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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    I agree with miabella. I work at showplace day shift, and, this is not a joke, EVERY SINGLE OTHER GIRL on days turns tricks. They all do the "special 50 dollar handshake" and allow touching and groping and fingering at least.

    I take advantage of this - I wear classy cocktail style gowns, and I approach men who have turned down the seedy looking forty year old tramps. Works like a charm, every time.

    If a clean girl is competing with the dirty girls, she will fail every time. I'm not competing - if a guy wants extras, I send him on his way. The gentlemen that prefer a smart, pretty looking girl who is under 30? There's only one option, and that would be me.

    Take advantage of this, ladies. It doesn't have to be your downfall to have some dignity.

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    God/dess colleen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    ^^^^^ cherry_sin and miribella, we should form a club. I was about to say the same thing. I work in a really grungy club. I once saw a girl giving a handjob with each hand at the same time! I wear gowns and look like a million bucks, and I jsut market to a different demographic. It's the only way to survice these days.


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    Default Re: Where do we draw the line

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen
    ^^^^^ cherry_sin and miribella, we should form a club.
    I think this is what the OP is saying....wouldn't it be nice to work at a club where it was all girls that could make money by playing by the same rules. Of course extra girls affect the clean dancers money. it's a huge myth that only the gross girls are doing it. The "classy" girls in gowns that have excellent sales skills are doing them too. I mean, do you think only the clean dancers figured out that if they dress better and act more sophisticated, that they will attract better customers?

    Many girls are doing well despite the extra girls, but that's not the point. And god damnit to me for getting involved in another "what is an extra?" thread!

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