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Thread: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Just in from a miserable night at the club. Officially, this is not a TR.

    My regular Friday evening female entertainment is in NYC for the night, so I decide to head down to Providence and hit the club. None of my regular girls are working, so I figure I'll look for some new ones to add to the rotation. Was going to hit a new club tonight, but my time was short so I hit the home club.

    I notice a couple new, rather decent girls on the stage, so I sit at the rail, tip them both a $5 bill, and tell them individually to find me at the bar if they'd like to do some dances. Now, it's Labor Day weekend, and the place is a tomb comparatively speaking, and it's the end of the month, so the monger in me is thinking it's a Perfect Storm.

    Do either of the girls make their way to the bar? Nope, they go straight to the dressing room. Undeterred, I repeat this process twice more, with the last girl--one I've seen there many times before, clearly a veteran--actually asking for a drink, as she's finishing her stage set. I get the drink and one for myself, and wait. And wait. I turn down a hard hustle from a Brazilian with a face that would stop a freight train. And wait. About twenty minutes goes by when I see the girl sitting with the ever-present scrawny white dude trying desperately to be a gangsta from Compton while sipping his Bud Light for two hours.

    While I'm not exactly a regular fixture, it's not like they've never seen me before in the place and a couple of them know I spend money because they see me with my regulars. Recalling my daily hygine routine, I did a malodorous armpit check and looked in the mirror to see if there was something stuck in my teeth or if I'd grown a pustulating wound or another head out of my shoulders. None of the above being the case, I just decided to call it a night and take my pocket full of money home, since I couldn't seem to give it away. This is happening more and more and I can't figure out why. I haven't changed, so maybe it's the strippers.

    Is it just me? Or is it tougher to give away money than it should be these days?
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    I just decided to call it a night and take my pocket full of money home, since I couldn't seem to give it away. This is happening more and more and I can't figure out why. I haven't changed, so maybe it's the strippers.

    Is it just me? Or is it tougher to give away money than it should be these days?
    It's not just you, I've notice the same. I can't figure it out either. A real lack of work ethic seems to have crept into a lot of clubs nowdays.

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    It's frustration, complacency, and simply giving up.

    First, most girls with any experience know that pervs come out of the woodwork to take advantage of yall's 'perfect storm'. Many simply prefer to turn down the money instead of deal with that.

    Second, when they've been having a hard time making money, that perpetuates itself via their own shitty moods and bruised egos. On slow nights, they will often hide to avoid the risk of more rejection and/or difficult custies. And they will resign themselves to making no money for the night. Sometimes before they even go in

    Third, they get complacent. They get used to dealing with certain guys and making certain amounts of money. And they also get used to certain guys spending on certain girls. So it seems almost like they don't even see the fresh meat practically dying to give them money.

    I guess I can see it, but I can't understand the logic. Or lack thereof. I mean, they go to work to make money, right? And they have to PAY to work there, right? And they have bills to pay, right? I dunno what goes on in their brains to cause this, but it's pretty widespread. I don't remember this being such an issue in previous years. I think the industry is waaaaaayy overdue for some weeding!!

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    Veteran Member Docido's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    No, it definitely isn't you. It happens so frequently that I almost expect it. There are a lot of new dancers in this business that haven't a clue about how to do a good hustle, approach a custie, or use their SS skills. So they make newbie mistakes. The most common one is mistaking the stripclub for a regular bar or nightclub which of course it isn’t. You’re there to work, which means approaching the guys who look like money, not hanging with your peer group, or sitting free with guys that seem like potential date material. Because strippers are independent contractors, the veterans aren't going to mentor the newbies since they are the competition. So, the newbies are left to fend for themselves. Some of them eventually get "it", quite a few of them never do.

    For veteran strippers, not approaching a custie or asking for dances is just mental. I know getting frequently rejected is ego and soul crushing (hey, it’s a tough business) but giving up on money is self-defeating. I completely understand there are days dancers don’t feel like doing the hustle, rubbing against strangers, or playing the sexy-kitten role. I totally understand; but if you can’t or won’t do it, then don’t go in to work, take a break, or make a career change. Self-loathing in a dancer or custie really destroys the illusion you know.
    Summer afternoon - Summer afternoon... the two most beautiful words in the English language. Henry James

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    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    I remember being paired with an experienced dancer for 'mentoring' when I first started. The house mom introduced us and told her to advise me. It was standard practice then and we were ICs then too.

    I think it has more to do with the overwhelmingly shitty management than anything else. They'll generally 'hire' anything with a twat (or sometimes not even that) so long as she's willing to pay the house fee. There is NO training whatsoever. Not even in the nice clubs. In past years, the nicer clubs would start a newbie on dayshift and often pair her with an experienced girl, AND house mom would give her advice. Now, the nicer clubs don't even want to mess with inexperienced girls and the rest just don't give a shit. They just do the bare minimum required to get their legal paperwork (if that) and throw her to the dogs. Most these chics don't even have a chance and the industry doesn't give a shit - hollywood is making sure there'll be a whole new troop turning 18 with stars in their eyes daily. Use 'em up and spit 'em out. Oh and make sure they paid their house fees before they go

    I agree it's a buzzkill and a problem for everyone - dancers, club and customers alike. But good luck getting management to do anything about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    Veteran Member Docido's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    It's frustration, complacency, and simply giving up.

    Second, when they've been having a hard time making money, that perpetuates itself via their own shitty moods and bruised egos. On slow nights, they will often hide to avoid the risk of more rejection and/or difficult custies. And they will resign themselves to making no money for the night. Sometimes before they even go in

    Third, they get complacent. They get used to dealing with certain guys and making certain amounts of money. And they also get used to certain guys spending on certain girls. So it seems almost like they don't even see the fresh meat practically dying to give them money.
    Bridgette you've decribed my home club to a tee.
    Summer afternoon - Summer afternoon... the two most beautiful words in the English language. Henry James

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    God/dess mr_punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    Do either of the girls make their way to the bar? Nope, they go straight to the dressing room. Undeterred, I repeat this process twice more, with the last girl--one I've seen there many times before, clearly a veteran--actually asking for a drink, as she's finishing her stage set. I get the drink and one for myself, and wait. And wait.
    this is why i rarely bother with the stage. i find it easier to get my waitress to drag the girl over to my table or i'll get her myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    None of the above being the case, I just decided to call it a night and take my pocket full of money home, since I couldn't seem to give it away. This is happening more and more and I can't figure out why.
    perhaps, you should try the subtle approach. have you tried taking the money, spreading it out into a fan and waving it under their noses?
    Is it not a problem that the woman have a smaller brain than a man? The government scientist Dr. Yamuka has proved it is size of squirrel. - Borat

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    this is why i rarely bother with the stage. i find it easier to get my waitress to drag the girl over to my table or i'll get her myself.
    In my regular club, I've noticed that there are generally three types of dancers:

    a) high hustle - they will respond to a stage tip, a smile, a glance, a cough, or make up a reason to hit you up for a dance (20%) - good at convo starters, but get to the 'wanna dance' within 15 seconds, tops

    b) casual hustle - they are pretty good at responding to stage tips and when not, are skilled in the art of convo to develop rapport and sell dances (40%)

    c) rudderless ships - they act purely where the wind takes them and are oblivious to any signs that a customer wants a dance from them. They usually go to the dressing room right after a stage set to chat with the gals, then find some guy who isn't buying dances to talk to for a while, then eventually decide to 'do a circuit' of 'wanna dance' then go back to said non-buyer/friend/boyfriend to lament over the slow night (or worse yet, give them free dances thinking they're selling the rest of the room). (30%)

    Then there's the remaining 10% who hang out with their boyfriend all night or enjoy getting hit up on by the DJ.


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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Docido
    You’re there to work, which means approaching the guys who look like money, not hanging with your peer group, or sitting free with guys that seem like potential date material.
    These girls aren't looking for dates. They sit with their "peer group" because they are frustrated and resigned, as B said. They feel more comfortable with people their own age and background if they aren't going to do any work. Why do you guys keep thinking that ANY stripper is at the club looking for dates.

    Sheesh, these girls already have boyfriends...at home, practicing with the band....living off of them.
    Last edited by Jay Zeno; 09-02-2006 at 01:32 PM.

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Docido - you're being a little unreasonable. Unless you are personally prepared to make it worthwhile for every dancer to maintain your "fantasy" (dirty word, dirty word) you only get to complain about the one's you are, in fact, paying. The rest have no responsibility to you.

    The last Saturday I worked, I couldn't make it work for me. And this was at a club where I barely sat down all week. To make it worse, other girls were danced off their damn feet (damn you guys - and you know who you are!) So yeah, at the end of the night I was like "Oh, the HELL with this, and just asked the last guy who bought a dance from me if I could rejoin him (because I also know that not every guy wants you hanging around indefinitely after you dance. Sometimes they may actually want a shot at another girl) and just hung out. If anyone really really wanted me - well, they should have asked me before I got all annoyed and pouty. I am under no obligation to make myself poutier and more annoyed because you think that me opting out for a couple of hours ruins your fantasy. And as for who I opt out with - also my concern and my choice.
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    Featured Member Chili Palmer's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    I'm surprised--three very sharp dancers missed the point of CO's complaint, which is also my main one of late as well.

    He is not asking a dancer to work the floor, and risk hurt feelings and/or being turned down for the umpteenth time that night. He approached a dancer, tipped her above and beyond the norm, and politely asked her to make some time for him so he could give her money. There is zero risk to the dancer: CO was already going to buy. Instead, the girls ignored him and undoubtedly went in the back room to bitch about how no guys were getting dances that night.

    I'd say it's unbelievable, but since more dancers than not seem to act this way, it is, sadly, all too believable. And apparently, it's become pandemic in this country.

    CP

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Oh, I didn't miss the point. I was just responding to a different response.

    As for CO's complaint - to me, yeah, it seems like a weird way to behave because at this stage in my career something pretty bad has to happen for me to turn down money. I like money, and I never have enough of it. However, why are THEY behaving this way? I have no idea. Maybe they didn't like the way he looked. Maybe he has a bad reputation in the club (note the "Perfect Storm" comment). Maybe their feet hurt. Maybe they all had colds and didn't want to spread them around. Bottom line - they probably did have a reason for not collecting money offered, but nobody knows what it is except them.
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    Veteran Member Docido's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Docido - you're being a little unreasonable.
    Customers being unreasonable! Oh, we know that never, ever happens. We're always sensible and levelheaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    Unless you are personally prepared to make it worthwhile for every dancer to maintain your "fantasy" (dirty word, dirty word) you only get to complain about the one's you are, in fact, paying. The rest have no responsibility to you.
    Of course they have no responsibility to me and I'm not implying that in anyway, shape, or form that they do. What I and the original poster are saying is we come in the door willing and able to spend money. But all too often no one seems interested in taking it. The problem isn't what the other girls are doing, but that it's getting harder and harder to get the attention of someone we want to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine
    These girls aren't looking for dates. They sit with their "peer group" because they are frustrated and resigned, as B said. They feel more comfortable with people their own age and background if they aren't going to do any work. Why do you guys keep thinking that ANY stripper is at the club looking for dates.
    Maybe I should have said hook-up material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine
    Sheesh, these girls already have boyfriends...at home, practicing with the band....living off of them.
    It takes a lot of cash to support a musician, especially a drummer who has all that equipment to lug around. You’d think that would give ‘em more incentive to hustle us pervs.
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    The last Saturday I worked, I couldn't make it work for me. And this was at a club where I barely sat down all week. To make it worse, other girls were danced off their damn feet (damn you guys - and you know who you are!) So yeah, at the end of the night I was like "Oh, the HELL with this, and just asked the last guy who bought a dance from me if I could rejoin him (because I also know that not every guy wants you hanging around indefinitely after you dance. Sometimes they may actually want a shot at another girl) and just hung out. If anyone really really wanted me - well, they should have asked me before I got all annoyed and pouty. I am under no obligation to make myself poutier and more annoyed because you think that me opting out for a couple of hours ruins your fantasy. And as for who I opt out with - also my concern and my choice.
    I think it was more a matter of your being burnt out. I'm more used to long-ass binge working- you were on hour 70+ in the club that week, when you normally work a few 5 hour shifts a week. You were way too hard on yourself. Besides, you sold like 80 dances to that guy, AND had a fellow who loved you enough to make you (ejaculated in) cookies! That trumps all. But anyways, I agree you had every right to sit down and say "fuck it, I'm not pushing myself anymore".

    As for the original post, I have no idea why girls ignored you...maybe you put off a vibe? Maybe they were in the same situation as Jenny. Maybe they're just dumb. I used to be dumb like that- I had to be told that I should approach guys who tipped me big on stage. In my mind, i figured if they tipped me big on stage, they'd probably used up all the money they wanted to spend on me. Young girls+ business does not always equal logical thinking.
    Last edited by scarlett_vancouver; 09-02-2006 at 03:24 PM. Reason: I'm a retard and didn't even read the whole quote I was responding to

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    Featured Member Lyssa Lynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    My guess is they know you're a handful, (or rather, want them to grab one ) and they just didn't want to deal with it. Only a guess, I don't know you and could be way off...however, your "perfect storm" comment is pretty telling. Yes, when I'm at work I'm there to make money, but if I know a particular guy is a mileage hound and goes about it in an aggressive manner (sadly more and more of these custies nowadays)...I won't bother.

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyssa Lynn
    however, your "perfect storm" comment is pretty telling.
    i could be wrong, but i don't think he's talking about "The Perfect Storm". i think he means perfect storm in the sense that the conditions (ie: dead Labor Day crowd, end of the month, probably a lot of strippers looking to make rent money, etc) are such that he shouldn't have a problem with girls not breaking their necks running over to a customer who's looking to spend money.
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    First, most girls with any experience know that pervs come out of the woodwork to take advantage of yall's 'perfect storm'. Many simply prefer to turn down the money instead of deal with that.
    But B, we both know that, despite my fat, balding, toothlessly sloberring PL persona here on SW, IRL I'm far, far from anything even remotely resembling a raincoating perv, and that's fairly obvious even to a dancer that didn't know me, I think. Surely B, you'd agree that I'm pretty easy when it comes to giving dances?

    i could be wrong, but i don't think he's talking about "The Perfect Storm". i think he means perfect storm in the sense that the conditions (ie: dead Labor Day crowd, end of the month, probably a lot of strippers looking to make rent money, etc) are such that he shouldn't have a problem with girls not breaking their necks running over to a customer who's looking to spend money.
    This is quite correct; I wasn't looking for a $40 BJ--I know where to get those if I wanted one, but I'm not into ITC action myself (not knocking anyone who does--it's just not my thing personally). I just expected that with the clubs being dead and the end of the month, I wouldn't have any trouble getting some attention and spending some money. It doesn't seem like too much to ask, frankly.
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    I notice a couple new, rather decent girls on the stage, so I sit at the rail, tip them both a $5 bill, and tell them individually to find me at the bar if they'd like to do some dances. Now, it's Labor Day weekend, and the place is a tomb comparatively speaking, and it's the end of the month, so the monger in me is thinking it's a Perfect Storm.

    Do either of the girls make their way to the bar? Nope, they go straight to the dressing room. Undeterred, I repeat this process twice more, with the last girl--one I've seen there many times before, clearly a veteran--actually asking for a drink, as she's finishing her stage set. I get the drink and one for myself, and wait. And wait. I turn down a hard hustle from a Brazilian with a face that would stop a freight train. And wait. About twenty minutes goes by when I see the girl sitting with the ever-present scrawny white dude trying desperately to be a gangsta from Compton while sipping his Bud Light for two hours.
    Been there, done that, got a dozen T-shirts. Makes you want to go to Vegas doesn't it?


    This happened twice during my vacation, not including the Minneapolis fiasco (see TR thread). I don't know what the fuck is going on, but if a gal is too stupid to know a guaranteed sale when she sees one, I'm not going to beg her to take my money.

    Now you all know why I stick to ones when tipping the rail. I don't want to piss away a lap dance or two trying to separating the wheat from the chaff. I'd rather save my cash for the one dancer who gets the damned message.
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer
    I just expected that with the clubs being dead and the end of the month, I wouldn't have any trouble getting some attention and spending some money. It doesn't seem like too much to ask, frankly.
    I agree it was a stupid move by said stripper, and I believe you that the situation seems to be getting worse. Makes me want to get back in it to make that easy money. And I agree with Bridgette's observations about a lack of management contributing nothing to fix it.

    Having said that, however, I would like to propose the notion that a dead time is not necessarily a perfect storm time. My experience is usually the opposite. A slow club breeds languor. If there's nothing much happening during a shift so far, it's hard to overcome that inertia when one or two new customers wander in. By that time, I already know my earnings are going to fall short of my expectations even with a little last-minute boost, and so, despair has set in. A moderate level of activity usually does more to stimulate the competitive, financially motivated spirit that benefits customers.

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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    If there's nothing much happening during a shift so far, it's hard to overcome that inertia when one or two new customers wander in. By that time, I already know my earnings are going to fall short of my expectations even with a little last-minute boost, and so, despair has set in. A moderate level of activity usually does more to stimulate the competitive, financially motivated spirit that benefits customers.
    Perhaps there's something to this, counterintuitive as it superficially seems.

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    God/dess mr_punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence
    Having said that, however, I would like to propose the notion that a dead time is not necessarily a perfect storm time.
    okay, but it's never been predicated strictly on dead time. what CO assumed isn't what i would consider "The Perfect Storm". the most important conditions are those that provide the stripper with extraordinary need for a lot of money in a short period of time. sorry, end of the month doesn't cut it. aggieed has the right idea in this thread. the first and the second ones describes those 90 foot tidal waves that hits the sc the week after TG.
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence
    Having said that, however, I would like to propose the notion that a dead time is not necessarily a perfect storm time. My experience is usually the opposite. A slow club breeds languor. If there's nothing much happening during a shift so far, it's hard to overcome that inertia when one or two new customers wander in.
    One late afternoon on a Saturday, I went into a club and watched this deathmarch of customers coming in, watching a few dances, and leaving. No-one got a lapdance for close to an hour. It was depressing to watch and there were NO girls working the floor - you could tell they were frustrated.

    Well, it finally happened, I found myself to be the ONLY guy in the club. I felt pretty bad for the gal on stage who was dancing for only me, so I stage tipped her and after her set she came and talked to me.

    Her: "So, how does it feel to be the only guy in the club?"
    Me: "Like I'm a total degenerate pervert." {big smile}
    Her: "So, do you want a dance?"
    Me: "Sorry, no, there's just no vibe to work off here"

    Then the DJ kicks in: "Let's hear it for our ONE CUSTOMER!!!"

    I told said dancer that I couldn't bring myself to leave just because it would make the next guy(s) who walked in feel even worse. We sat and talked for 15-20 minutes and only 2 guys came in, both sitting at the bar.

    The conversation got into people's energy, and stuff like that and we started to enjoy ourselves. Finally I told her that I wanted her to start dancing for me when the next guy walked in the door, and we set a common goal to "increase the mojo" in the place during the dances.

    We found the most visible part of the club and she started in. It was actually a very light contact LD, but we both acted like we were very into it, mostly maintaining eye contact with lusty smiles. After the four songs, she sat next to me and we looked out into the club... It was 3/4 full! AND, there were lots of guys getting dances!

    We laughed at ourselves, gave each other a wink, and talked for a bit about "The Magic" we had created together.

    Seriously, it only takes 1-2 good dancer/custy vibes in a club to get the rest of the guys to open their wallets.


    "Life is not about the number of breaths you take.
    It's about those moments which leave you breathless."

  23. #23
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Palmer
    I'm surprised--three very sharp dancers missed the point of CO's complaint, which is also my main one of late as well.

    He is not asking a dancer to work the floor, and risk hurt feelings and/or being turned down for the umpteenth time that night. He approached a dancer, tipped her above and beyond the norm, and politely asked her to make some time for him so he could give her money. There is zero risk to the dancer: CO was already going to buy. Instead, the girls ignored him and undoubtedly went in the back room to bitch about how no guys were getting dances that night.

    I'd say it's unbelievable, but since more dancers than not seem to act this way, it is, sadly, all too believable. And apparently, it's become pandemic in this country.

    CP
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette
    So it seems almost like they don't even see the fresh meat practically dying to give them money.
    No CP, we didn't miss his complaint at all. When some dancers get to that point of being THAT frustrated and resigned, they will ignore the money that's practically being thrown at them, because they can no longer even see it for being blinded by self-pity.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

  24. #24
    Featured Member evan_essence's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_punk
    okay, but it's never been predicated strictly on dead time.
    Oh, I know. I assumed he was using the term far more loosely simply to mean his odds should have been somewhat better than average considering some of the favorable conditions were present.

    Quote Originally Posted by azcustomer
    We laughed at ourselves, gave each other a wink, and talked for a bit about "The Magic" we had created together.

    Seriously, it only takes 1-2 good dancer/custy vibes in a club to get the rest of the guys to open their wallets.
    Okay, I get it, but you were focused on changing the atmosphere, so I think your evidence supports my point somewhat. You two plotted a strategy to overcome the inertia or else it might have perpetuated itself. I just meant (and I'm not trying to justify it) that it's easy when it's dead for a dancer to get a lazy mind that she keeps at rest if the overall room doesn't start showing life. Btw, where were you when I needed you for that kind of help?

    -Ev

  25. #25
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is wrong with strippers these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence
    Having said that, however, I would like to propose the notion that a dead time is not necessarily a perfect storm time. My experience is usually the opposite. A slow club breeds languor. If there's nothing much happening during a shift so far, it's hard to overcome that inertia when one or two new customers wander in. By that time, I already know my earnings are going to fall short of my expectations even with a little last-minute boost, and so, despair has set in. A moderate level of activity usually does more to stimulate the competitive, financially motivated spirit that benefits customers.

    -Ev
    This actually goes right along with what I was saying about frustration and complacency, and giving up. You could also call it momentum - slowness breads slowness, and all that.

    Honestly, as much as I say "fine, more money for me", I really wish the industry would do a mass weeding, cull out the slacking/ugly bitches and teach the rest how to friggin WORK. It would only benefit everyone.

    Oh, and CO - not saying that YOU would be a perv to be avoided, quite to the contrary. But when we're talking about girls who are already resigned and who don't know you, they apparently just can't bring themselves to bother.
    Last edited by Bridgette; 09-03-2006 at 07:50 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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