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Thread: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

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    God/dess fancygirl's Avatar
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    Default who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    school paper having to do with a famous black burlesque dancer in the 20s and 30s. can someone give me the name of a famous or well known feminist writer who is against dancers or anyone sexually uninhibited? I'd like someone close to the time period, but later ones will do too, I suppose.

    Help!

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    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Sorry, I dont know any since I usually tune out to the anti-sex feminists. Who is your paper on though, Im interested?

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Fancygirl, I don't think many women at all publicly defended or made statements against burlesque dancers back in the 20's and 30's... Women didn't have much public presence then, much less be in an academic setting to write publicly recognized papers.

    Sandra Day O'Connor graduated Stanford Law and could only get hired as a legal SECRETARY, and that was WAY after the 20's and 30's.

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    God/dess fancygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Josephine Baker--- I would like a feminist to argue against to rally an argument that Josephine could be considered a sexual or capitalist feminist.

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    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    ^^^ I thought so - I LOVE Josephine Baker!!! From everything I've read or seen on her Id say almost all of her critics were racists though not feminists, hmm - thats given me something to think about
    I also cant recall having heard much anti sex industry stuff until the 1970's, although my gran who is also a feminist is fairly anti-anything that's to do with sex and she's 89 so I guess the 1930's were her era. She's overseas currenly so I cant ask her.
    Good luck with your paper, I hope you find something!

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Start with Camille Paglia. She's definitely pro-sex but can lead you to the opposing POV.
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

    Ernest Hemingway on writer, aviation pioneer and horse trainer Beryl Markham


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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Feminism back in the 20's and 30's had to do mainly with strengthning basic legal rights for women (women only gained the right to vote in 1920), and also with the emerging right to birth control. Remember that women went to JAIL for simply distributing information re: birth control because it was considered "obscene" and "immoral." It was considered unladylike for women to discuss sex, god forbid, in public. Women still were often barred from higher education, and they were not given public forums or positions to express ideas or write papers. Shit, the amendment against gender discrimination in higher education didn't go into the legal books until 1972.

    The thing is, sexuality simply was not talked about back then nearly as openly as it is now. So, you're going to have a tough time finding information that talks about the right of women to freely express themselves as sexual beings, because that ws NOT the concern or mentality back in the day. That came way, way later. Things were very different back then in the 20's and 30's, and so you can't look at many historical events from modern sensibilities. In the 20's and 30's, feminism was just starting up still. Sex was a topic that just wasn't discussed publicly- especially by women. Racism and sexism was the order of the day- period. It was the standard and not questioned back then. In that respect, Josephine was definitely a courageous mold-breaker for her time.

    It's somewhat difficult to look at historical figures and apply modern sensibilities and argue under modern sensibilities. The focus for minorities, esp african-americans, was focused more against fighting racism because it was so much more obvious and overt.

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    I don't consider Camille to be a very good "pro-sex" feminist, not so much in that I agree or disagree, but she's not very good at making solid, logical arguments for her cause. In some respects, she's like a shock jock in that she goes for the shock value and often tends to be flimsy for backing it up. Annie Sprinkle and Susie Bright are better examples of someone that's a sex-positive feminist, IMHO. If you need some help, feel free to pm me.

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    I think in terms of the paper, I would do a modren interpretation of Josephine, rather than trying to stay true to her era, if that's possible- just in terms of the ease of finding material. The fact is that sex, and women talking/expressing sex is still *to a degree*, a very conflicted taboo in this country- and it shows in the slut-shaming that goes on for women that choose to express themselves sexually or dare make money from it, or don't shy away from it- or the idea that strippers can't get raped (and if they do, they deserved it), etc etc.

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Off topic - whilst browsing pages looking for stuff related to the original post, I found this site and thought it was pretty neat. Sharing the link incase its of interest.

    Early black burlesque performers.

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    Veteran Member Bubble's Avatar
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    ARIEL LEVY
    Check out her book

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    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Going back earlier than that, Elizabeth Cady Stanton was quite the prude. Susan B. Anthony was, too. Part of their view of "feminism" was empowering women so that we wouldn't be subject to men's icky goat-nature. The 20's were a pretty liberated time (more so than this time, in a lot of ways), but people started pulling back in the 30's and then more strongly in the 50's. Andrea Dworkin (mostly from the 80's) is famous for hating men and sex, as is her counterpart, Catherine MacKinnon (who famously said, "all sex is rape").

    Look for The Century of Sex: Playboy's Guide to the Sexual Revolution, 1900-1999, by James Petersen. It's a fascinating read and covers the history of the sexual revolution and different waves of feminism. Lots of terrific information in there.

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    I didn't want to start a new thread, but if no one responds, I might have to.

    Instead of finding someone to argue against, I'm going to try to find someone to argue with-- in terms of Josephine Baker not being able to change the world but finding her own way to live comfortably in it as an African American woman.

    Who are the feminist writers who focus on financial or sexual feminism, like using men as ATMs, doing what it takes to be on a financial even keel with men, or using their sexual power as the only power that's really afforded to women.

    Help! p.s. obviously they don't have to be in the same time frame as baker. I think I'll just do a re-reading of her as that's the easiest thing to do to fit her into a forerunner of that type of feminism and also to discuss her sexual icon status when there were relatively few (unlike today.)

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    feminists are somewhat famous for criticizing beauty pagents.
    quick google search gave:
    http://www.lib.muohio.edu/epub/abrams/abrams6.html
    A History of Feminist Activism at Miami University, Oxford Campus

    Feminists criticize the monolithic, racist, often unattainable standard of beauty forced into the nations consciouness through books, magazines, television, and other artifacts of popular culture....Their signs read "Don't use bathing suits to make a point" and "Stop the objectification of womyn." "This is the blatant exploitation of women," said Nancy Herzog, a

    Beauty pageants exist as an affirmation of the idea that it is acceptable to judge women on their appearance. "Judging women distances them." When they are rejected, they feel like they do not measure up to being beautiful. This leads to sexual harassment and "environment where women are not safe."

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    Veteran Member Jo Weldon's Avatar
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    I met Lottie at Exotic World this year, she was amazing and funny, and so loving and appreciative of all the performers.

    Quote Originally Posted by aussiepunkshocker
    Off topic - whilst browsing pages looking for stuff related to the original post, I found this site and thought it was pretty neat. Sharing the link incase its of interest.

    Early black burlesque performers.

    http://webhome.idirect.com/%7Ekmaitland/lottie.html
    Blog:


    Burlesque classes and info:


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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it might be helpful in finding a perspective for that era:
    http://www.kevincmurphy.com/cott.html

    Quote Originally Posted by fancygirl
    school paper having to do with a famous black burlesque dancer in the 20s and 30s. can someone give me the name of a famous or well known feminist writer who is against dancers or anyone sexually uninhibited? I'd like someone close to the time period, but later ones will do too, I suppose.

    Help!
    Blog:


    Burlesque classes and info:


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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    I think Andrea Dworkin would be the classic against. Audacia Ray (wakingvixen.com) might be a starting point for pro.



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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    True, but Dworkin claims to be against the clientele, not the dancers--she considers the women to be victims of patriarchy and the men to be enjoying the priveleges of patriarchy. Most of her era of radical feminists do. Ariel talks more about dancers as "Uncle Toms," and represents a tendency among newer feminist discussions of sex work to acknowledge that the workers who are not trafficked or forced are making a choice (which Dworkin said patriarchy deprived them of, even when they appeared to have agency), but the choice to work in the sex industry is misogynist.

    I believe in Josephine Baker's era people who were against her would have considered her an evil temptress, or a shameless woman. But I'm not an expert on feminism.
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    Featured Member LilSweetVixen's Avatar
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Try Katherine Mackinnon, Law Professor at University of Michigan and radical feminist. Also try Linda Lovelace, former porn star/prostitute and now anti-porn feminist.

    "You have demonic genius" -Naomi Wolf
    "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." -Azar Nafisi


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    Veteran Member Jo Weldon's Avatar
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    MacKinnon worked with Dworkin and shares Dworkin's views about clients, see my post above. Linda Lovelace didn't exactly recant what she said about porn, but she got upset with the way she felt she was being used by the anti-pornography camp and did a book with a friend of mine who worked for Penthouse as well as posed for photos for Leg Show about ten years ago (she was working with Dworkin on the anti-porn stuff 25 years ago). Linda was very sweet and although she continued to dislike porn and to confirm that her husband forced her into it, she was not, like Dworkin and MacKinnon, completely intolerant of porn.


    http://www.completelindalovelace.com/html/intro.html


    Linda Lovelace and Andrea Dworkin are both deceased.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSweetVixen
    Try Katherine Mackinnon, Law Professor at University of Michigan and radical feminist. Also try Linda Lovelace, former porn star/prostitute and now anti-porn feminist.
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Just to say, whatever their thoughts on the sex industry might be, Dworkin and MacKinnon both did A LOT to illuminate the legal system concerning sexual, spousal, and other types of abuse (as I seem to recall from my philosophy of law class, though I am certainly no expert). Not to say every opinion they held was valid, but they did some very important work as well.

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    http://susiebright.blogs.com/susie_b..._dworkin_.html
    Speaking of "sex-positive" and "sex-negative" (and god how I think those terms are stupid) feminists.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    For feminist perspectives that are supportive of the sex industry and the financial aspects thereof, try Whores and other Feminists, edited by Jill Nagle. Not only will this introduce you to some feminist writers on the subject, it's just a great read, particularly if you need a pick-me-up when someone's being a jerk about the sex industry.

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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    I tend to agree.

    As an activist I've often found myself in the most painful adversarial positions with women who've done all this incredible work in the areas of domestic violence, trafficking, etc., and more than once in a public forum such as a panel. It fucking sucks. It broke my heart a little bit, frankly.

    http://www.swimw.org/march2.html

    Quote Originally Posted by mollyzmoon
    Just to say, whatever their thoughts on the sex industry might be, Dworkin and MacKinnon both did A LOT to illuminate the legal system concerning sexual, spousal, and other types of abuse (as I seem to recall from my philosophy of law class, though I am certainly no expert). Not to say every opinion they held was valid, but they did some very important work as well.
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    Veteran Member Jo Weldon's Avatar
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    Default Re: who are some well known feminists who put down burlesque type dancers?

    Re Sex-Positive and Sex-Negative, as I recall the terminology originally came up around a time (late 70s, early 80s) when some feminists were arguing that there was no escaping the patriarchal constructs while we were still having patriarchal sex, and that in order to advance the feminist agenda women should be political lesbians or have no sex at all. Some of these suggestions came from Sheila Jeffreys, who is also a passionate anti-prostitution activist and theorist, hence its association with anti-sex-work attitudes. There actually WERE openly anti-sex feminists. So what it means now (not that it's easy to define) is not what it always meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny
    http://susiebright.blogs.com/susie_b..._dworkin_.html
    Speaking of "sex-positive" and "sex-negative" (and god how I think those terms are stupid) feminists.
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