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Thread: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

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    Default Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    As a first time poster, I'd like to say that this is a great site. There's some very thoughtful and supportive commentary where I was expecting a lot of negative posts. Either the members are very cool or the moderators are incredibly busy separating the wheat from the chaff!!

    I'd like to discuss something that's been bothering me the last few weeks. I need some of that thoughtful commentary for myself as I haven't had anyone to talk to about this. Even though the story arc may seem very predictable, please read this through. I know its long, but....HEEELLLLP!!!

    I few months ago I met a dancer in a club and I felt we "hit it off"(yes, yes, I know she was working!). This may sound cliché, but we had things in common (i.e. very similar age, growing up in the same area, etc.). I found myself enjoying her company and conversation very much. After a few visits more; then the first time in the VIP room, she's giving up contact information; not "shell" information for her dancing work, but her personal cell phone number and e-mail address with her real name on it. We'd e-mail back and forth, call each other; with a lot of conversation happening at our day jobs in our respective offices. We discussed a lot of very personal details of our lives and had a lot of fun getting to know each other.

    Before I go any further, I'm going to muddy up the waters by saying that I'm married (12+ years). Believe me, I've been terribly conflicted about this whole episode. Just one more reason I aint going to heaven! BTW she is divorced.

    A few weeks later, for reasons I can't nail down, I'm having feelings for this woman, as in developing a crush on her. I let her know about this. She seemed to not have a problem with it, in fact, she said she "liked me a lot too".....we continued calling and e-mailing......We met OTC for dinner and had a great time. That night, she was very sweet and affectionate, she was so nice. I thought things were good. All the while I'm coming to the club on occasion, taking in the VIP room exclusively with her. This goes on another few weeks.

    She was evasive about another date, when asked directly, she said my marital status was an issue (didn't seem to be before). She asks what the difference was if we met ITC or OTC. I responded that I would be hard pressed to think of myself as anything more than a customer if it was all ITC and that "I'd be a fool to think otherwise".

    Next thing, I'm sent an abrupt e-mail asking me "what I thought I had to offer her OTC"(a close paraphrasing) and fed me a short lecture on how married men behave ITC(This after having dinner with me OTC!). I found this to be both very hurtful and condescending. I replied with an angry missive resenting having all this thrown at MY feet and asking "Why I wasn't shut down earlier" if my behavior was so out of bounds. We haven't communicated since and, for now, I avoid the shifts she works.

    I've frequented SCs for as long as I can remember and know the etiquette. I know how to have a great time within those bounds. While I have had some occasions for OTC meetings in the past with some women, this is the first time I've ever actually "fallen" for a woman after meeting them this way. I'm in my mid 40's and I think my myself to be smart enough to tell if some one is genuinely interested in me or not.

    I feel that one of two things happened; either she was interested and then changed her mind, it happens all the time; I just resented the hell out of having it all thrown at MY feet. The other possibility is that she took advantage of my feelings and "played" me, a scenario offensive on a whole other level.

    My question(s) is this (finally!): Was she interested? Am I crazy to feel so hurt and upset at feeling misled like this? Ladies, does this seem like an extreme example of customer cultivation or is this more common than an isolated exception? Someone Please help.

    I've omitted a lot of details for the sake of brevity(not deception). If anyone wants more details, just ask and I'll be happy to provide honest information so long as everyone's anonymity can be maintained.

    After all the pleasantness, I just feel bad that the last thing we did was exchange nasty e-mails.

  2. #2
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Dude, speaking as a man to a man - you flaked out.

    You are mad because she has boundaries on getting involved with married men? What is she suppose to do - hope you divorce your wife who you have invested 12 years of time and romance into? Do you know how likely that will be? Only so she can be the home wrecker and crying when you go cheat on her with someone else - I mean it won't be the first time right?

    You are high risk for her to invest falling in love with man.

    I think you made the mistake pushing a casual relationship into something more - then she had to make some emotional decisions about how far it should go.

    I have to agree with her. Falling in love with a married man is a good way to lead an unhappy unfulfilling life.

    If you want to get over the nasty emails, apologize for putting her into such a spot and then let her drive where the relationship goes from there. That will tell you if the apology was accepted.

    In my opinion though, this is all pretty bad mojo for the both of you.

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    God/dess greenidlady1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    No, if she wanting to use you and keep you coming in the club she would still be doing it. She started to develop feelings for you and that's why she mentioned the concern about the wife. She ended it before she invested too much emotionally.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    After a few visits more; then the first time in the VIP room, she's giving up contact information; not "shell" information for her dancing work, but her personal cell phone number and e-mail address with her real name on it. We'd e-mail back and forth, call each other; with a lot of conversation happening at our day jobs in our respective offices. We discussed a lot of very personal details of our lives and had a lot of fun getting to know each other.
    Every stripper worth her thong will do this--it's client cultivation at its best, while still allowing her to maintain distance. The office chatter is a bit over the top, but maybe you were that good a custy.

    A few weeks later, for reasons I can't nail down, I'm having feelings for this woman, as in developing a crush on her. I let her know about this.
    First mistake. The primary rule in this regard is always, follow the dancer's lead. If she's not expressing overt OTC non-customer interest in you (i.e., not taking your money anymore), expect that she has only a financial motivation and don't her offer unsolicited emotional/sexual overtures.

    She seemed to not have a problem with it, in fact, she said she "liked me a lot too".....we continued calling and e-mailing.
    Of course she has no problem with it; more openings for feeding you SS. She's good at her job, clearly.

    She was evasive about another date, when asked directly, she said my marital status was an issue (didn't seem to be before).
    More SS for deflective purposes.

    She asks what the difference was if we met ITC or OTC. I responded that I would be hard pressed to think of myself as anything more than a customer if it was all ITC and that "I'd be a fool to think otherwise".
    Second mistake. Her asking what the difference is between meeting ITC or OTC is classic SS of the highest order. She doesn't want to meet OTC, period, and you should have picked up on that immediately.

    I replied with an angry missive resenting having all this thrown at MY feet and asking "Why I wasn't shut down earlier" if my behavior was so out of bounds.
    Third mistake. You shouldn't have aggravated the situation by playing a victim; women in general hate that shit, strippers (understandably) even more so.

    The other possibility is that she took advantage of my feelings and "played" me, a scenario offensive on a whole other level.
    When in doubt, Occam's Razor still applies, and this is the most plausible answer. Again, it doesn't make her a bad person, just a very skilled stripper--you can't hold that against her, since it's not like she was an ROB or something.

    My question(s) is this (finally!): Was she interested?
    If you have to ask the question, the answer is no. Strippers make no attempt to hide true interest in a guy when so motivated.

    If it feels like I'm beating you up here, I'm not. You're just being a complete PL/RIL--it happens to all us sometimes, since being a PL is a recreational hazard in this hobby. I've been played a few times over the years, and without exception, every time I was played it was because I broke the first commandment of strip clubbing: follow the dancer's lead.

    Suck it up, chalk this one up to experience and find the next ATF.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    God/dess greenidlady1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    And basically, there was nothing else for her gain, you weren't going to leave your wife plus you wanted to see her OTC instead of ITC. And I am sure once you saw her OTC you started spending less money on her ITC. So, she cut her losses.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Reply to Casual Observer....What is SS can't find a definition for this acronym.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    To Casual Oberver....

    SS= stripper shit, got it. ...But what is ROB??

    I cannot argue with a thing you said. All I can say is that she got around my defenses, something only I could have allowed.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Deogol's reply is a bit over the top and assuming I'm hoping for the impossible- just my thought

    Casual observer - while somewhat callous toward the woman. I can't argue with much of anything he said.

    I'm still interesting hearing more from the women. Or did Greenidlady1 pretty much cover it?

    Any other opinions?

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    ROB = Rip Off Bitch
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    I agree with greenidlady. When I danced, I virtually NEVER met a customer OTC unless I thought he was pretty cool and enjoyed his company. In fact, I maintained several friendships with guys that I met ITC and hung out with OTC. One even ended up being my longest romantic relationship.

    If she were really trying to play you for more money, then she could have gone on yet another date with you and then added to your hopes of it becoming more, thus, increasing the likelihood that you'd keep coming into the club and spending money on her.

    Truth be told, she probably was developing feelings for you, and quickly realized that if this continued that 1) she would end up getting hurt and 2) she would lose money. Either way, she was screwed a bit on #2, but she could at least save herself on #1.

    And lest we not forget - YOU ARE MARRIED!!!! What the FUCK are you doing looking to "fall in love" with someone else? As a married man, you have the potential to wreak emotional havoc on not one but TWO women. It's one thing to go out, oogle pretty women, and enjoy some dances. But to try to strike up a full blown relationship? Not EVEN cool man.

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    Veteran Member Vegas_dancer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    heres my problem
    in fact, she said she "liked me a lot too".....we continued calling and e-mailing......We met OTC for dinner and had a great time. That night, she was very sweet and affectionate, she was so nice. I thought things were good. All the while I'm coming to the club on occasion, taking in the VIP room exclusively with her.
    She said she liked you to, all the while continuing to take your money on a regular basis. Im sorry, but if I am trying to date a guy I like, and he even offers me money, I will not take it.

    She was just leading you on because it made her money in the club. Had she really liked you and wanted to date you, she would have cut off the ITC visits.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    A reply to BrainyDancerGirl -

    I wasn't looking to "Fall in love with" with another woman; this wasn't a part of something I was looking for. For me, This just happened! If a woman can be swept off her feet by a guy then why can't a guy have the same done to him by a woman......whatever the circumstances.

    However, You are still correct on one count.....WTF was I doing....By most anyone's accounting I was cheating.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    don't take severe offense to this, but i absolutely don't buy the "it just happened" bullshit in regaurds to cheating/developing feelings/whatever. you made the step to contact her, you made the step to go out to eat with her, that's not an "accident". maybe you should evaluate why allowed it to happen in the first place. just because you didn't completely premeditate something doesn't mean it "just happened".

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty_Penny
    don't take severe offense to this, but i absolutely don't buy the "it just happened" bullshit in regaurds to cheating/developing feelings/whatever. you made the step to contact her, you made the step to go out to eat with her, that's not an "accident". maybe you should evaluate why allowed it to happen in the first place. just because you didn't completely premeditate something doesn't mean it "just happened".
    I completely agree with the above assessment. I'm sorry, but RARELY does cheating "just happen." You took active, deliberate steps to get in touch with this woman."

    You aren't a BAD person for this having happened. But you seriously need to THINK about the consequences of what you are just "happening" to do - for you, her and your family.

    Your first mistake wasn't that you didn't "follow her lead," but that you attempted to try to start something that you knew couldn't end up really well for either one of you.

    P.S. I'm not in agreement with the above poster that if a dancer likes a guy, she won't take money from him. That's definitely not the case for everyone. I met tons of guys that I liked, and definitely took their money when it was offered. LOL! In fact, I was happier to take it because I knew why they were giving it to me - because they really thought I was awesome and wanted me to have a great night. And besides, they knew I liked them and would be hanging out with them regardless

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    God/dess greenidlady1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    I saw a couple of my regulars for dinner OTC that I liked, not feelings liked but I thought they were decent people obviously and my husband then didn't mind because he knew them too from work. They still came in the club but one of them stop coming in as much once I went to eat with him but I still gladly took his money ITC.

    In my opinion She wanted to see you ITC because she realized she wasn't going to get anything OTC but heartache and you obviously wasn't going to leave your wife. Then once she realized you were persistant with the relationship idea she cut her losses.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hey_Now
    My question(s) is this (finally!): Was she interested?
    If you have to ask the question, the answer is a resounding "no." I am really sorry about that. It comes across as dismissive, but I don't mean it that way at all.

    I can tell from your post that you've been around for a while (oh, and welcome to the site!) It's perfectly acceptable for you to mix ITC and OTC when you have a club relationship with a dancer. But your relationship with her never crossed over from professional to personal -- you were meeting her OTC, but still spending like a fiend in the club. That's good for a professional relationship, and we all totally encourage that, but it means that there was never a strictly personal one.

    The idea that OTC transforms the relationship from professional to personal is totally crazy. It makes no fundamental difference. The reason is that many good dancers use social OTC as a marketing tool, and it's a very good strategy. In my home club, we go out to dinner and clubs after day shifts. We all hang out for birthday parties and even visit each other in our homes. I've often had dinner or gone shopping with some very cool dancers one-on-one, but none of us think that changes the fundamental dynamic. A new dancer in the club this last week asked me to drive her home. Does that mean she's interested in me? Not in the least. If you understand the game as much as you suggest, you should know that OTC, and heated flirtation, by themselves, change nothing.

    In my case, it certainly helps that there is an incredible (former) dancer in my life who makes everybody else, and everything else, pale by comparison.

    CO already covered this, and he's right on target as usual, but it bears repeating. The dancer always takes the lead. If she's interested in you, you are not going to find yourself near a keyboard asking us our opinion. You are going to be in the shower at her place trying to catch your breath and hoping to figure out how the hell to squeeze in some sleep in the next few days.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    A reply to The Other Owner -

    I'm not tryng to debunk any you or anything any one else says......BUT......here is part of why I was thinking differently.....

    Yes Ive done the shopping/dinner thing with women in the past, one of those times, an OTC meeting blossomed into a year-long romantic relationship (however, this relationship occurred way before I was married). The other times I never once thought that the "Fundamental Dynamic" had changed. These other times there was a certain amount of cagey-ness(on both our parts) about revealing too much about ourselves and I understood and respected that.

    With the current woman in question, there was definitly no hedging about revealing too much personal information about ourselves. When I said her name was attached to the email address, I'm talking about her real first and last name- complete spelling. When I called her in her office, I was calling on her company's line. While small details, This was one reason I thought she was interested in me and the "fudamental dynamic" was.....well...... different.

    If she was such a "Skilled" hustler why not a shell E-mail address, why allow me to call her on her direct company line? She gave up that number too. Woudn't these have been basic things?

    BTW....plenty of thoughtful commentary......I've been so needing this for the last few weeks!! The las few hours have been incredibly theraputic!

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Dude this only takes one scentce to answer SHE IS JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. now return to your wife and grow the fuck up.

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    umm, I'd suggest to wait until AFTER your divorce to worry about how much other women besides your wife like you.

  20. #20
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hey_Now
    My question(s) is this (finally!): Was she interested? Am I crazy to feel so hurt and upset at feeling misled like this?
    My questions(s) is this: Why does it matter? She's not interested, and you're married. Go take your wife out to dinner and fuck her brains out. It'll balance out the karma and keep your mind off dating strippers.

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    Veteran Member jannisary's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hey_Now
    Deogol's reply is a bit over the top and assuming I'm hoping for the impossible- just my thought

    Casual observer - while somewhat callous toward the woman. I can't argue with much of anything he said.

    I'm still interesting hearing more from the women. Or did Greenidlady1 pretty much cover it?

    Any other opinions?

    Just another victim of SS.

    Or maybe that's what you like to think. Its usually easier being the victim than the villan.

    I pretty much agree with Deogol and JZ.

    Stripper Shit, that might be truthfully what was going on or it might be a too convenient sauve for your ego.

    Really who the fuck knows why she's not into you. We only know what information you've posted which you admit is not complete. We can't read the lady's mind. So lets take the easy way out and blame it on that stereotypical cynical ass Stripper Shit.

    There could be an infinite number of reasons as to why she's not interested. Well maybe not infinte but pretty close considering all the different variations and motivations that run people's daily lives.

    Maybe she woke up one morning and decided that getting involved with a married man was not something she really wanted to do. Maybe on your OTC she saw something in your mannerism, social behavior, table manners, or whatever and decided to cut you loose. Some ladies have been known to cut guys loose for some real silly or petty reasons. And if you think about, us guys do the same thing.

    But if it makes you feel better to blame it all on stereotypical cynical ass Stripper Shit, just go ahead plenty of people around here do that already. But deep down, you know the truth.

    The truth is: who the fuck knows!

  22. #22
    Chicagoeditor
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah
    My questions(s) is this: Why does it matter? She's not interested, and you're married. Go take your wife out to dinner and fuck her brains out. It'll balance out the karma and keep your mind off dating strippers.
    Great, smart advice, Yek.

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    You could always ask the stripper...
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    I like to say that I appreciate most of the 20-odd posts on this thread; they were very informative and enlightening. I so wish that I was aware of this site in July! I would never have gone on this head trip in the first place!

    I haven't been able to get back to this thread sooner as I would have trouble explaining the internet cookies on my computer at work! Another reason would be that the last two nights were the first times in about five weeks where I was able to get a good nights sleep. To me this is an indication of where my head was at is how much posting here has helped me (see below).

    Rather than respond to individuals; I'd like to respond and perhaps clarify things by subject matter:

    On Being told to "grow the fuck up" -

    Not much thought put into this particular post, considering the poster's age, I might suggest her getting back in about.....oh....say 15-17 years. Please understand, I already consider my self a grownup.

    While yes, for the first few days or so, I was still joanzing for this woman, being mopey and sad about things "coming apart". I just figured I'd get over it and move on. Sure the Mopeyness and joanzing disappeared, but what I never expected was my mopeyness to be replaced by the anxiety that followed; the shock of how I could allow myself to be this position, how I could misjudge things so much to say nothing about the conflicts over my marriage as well. I felt like my head would explode if I didn't talk to someone. But who could I talk to about smething like this?

    What I sorely needed was some objective, direct, matter of fact commentary for me to get my bearings straight; then I knew I could do the rest; but where to turn? This stayed with me for another 3-4 Weeks untill I discovered this forum on Sunday (today being the following Thursday). My God! Everything that I needed to know, or should have known, was right here. How I wish I read the thread "Beaking up with a Regular"(this, to gain perspective on OTC meetings) sooner.

    On "Gettin' some Strange" -

    While risking sounding non-believable, I never had an end game in mind when it came to this woman, much less an eye on the "Carnal Prize". I was too busy trying to concoct ways to simply spend more time with her (i.e. meeting her in the park where she brown-bagged her lunch and then playing hooky from work, checking out nearby museum exhibits. This was all in August.) All that time, I was just a junkie for her affection and all I wanted was more.

    As for the Carnal Prize; for me, I think this was way past my "point of no return". I'm sure lining up 20 people(men and/or women) and having them state their point of no return, that line would certainly not be a straight one. But, if put in that position, sex is sex, and I really don't know how I would have behaved.

    On what "really happened" -

    My purpose for posting to this site was not to elicit sympathy, or to find out how to salvage the situation. What I wanted, needed and received was input and perspective on why this woman behaved the way she did and try to understand why I was so stunned and hurt by this turn of events(or if I should even feel this way). I've said before that I've frequented SCs for most of my adult life, and considered myself jaded to the scene, but Guys,this is absolutely the first time that I've ever heard of OTC meetings and texting being referred to as a marketing tools! I'm pretty thrown by this idea.

    Considering the timeline of what happen between us (this woman and myself) and how much or little we communicated and saw each other, particularly in the context of the SS and marketing factors, everything seems to make sense. The only thing that doesn't fit would be the very personal conversations we had. Maybe there was a personal feelings dimension to her behavior. After all, she did trust me enough to meet OTC. To quantify these factors, I'd say 75% SS, 25% personal. But then again, as so many of you have said, WTF does it matter? I'm freakin' married for crying out loud!

    On the selfishness of all this nonsense -

    Here, the verdict is pretty unanimous: I'm an asshole for doing this; to this I can only plead "no contest". Holy shit! I was willing to risk my family.....everything for time with this woman! I should know better. This obviously reflects poorly on my married life and it is up to no one but myself to fix it.

    I can only be thankful that I proceeded with such a level of paranoia that it would have made Dick Cheney proud.

    On what next to do -

    Seeing as how we haven't communicated in the last five weeks, I don't feel that contacting this woman is any kind of a useful option. I wouldn't be surprized if she has forgotten all about me by now. For now, I'm still going to the club, avoiding her shifts by calling the club to find out if she is working that night. I know, there are other clubs, but I like the attitude at this one. But even with this solution, it's still all about her and that's got to stop. With the aforementioned input and perspective I've received at this site, I'll look forward to enjoying myself at the club regardless who's there or not. If I bump into her again, I'm now confident I won't dissolve into some "weenie man" in that situation.

    Oh sure, I'll be back at this club at the same frequency I used to go, but not just yet. I'll be spending money on a hotel room.......for some time with my wife. Right now we're planning(very soon) to get a room at a nearby hotel, quite the elegant establishment as well. I'll take the day off and see how much fun and games we can get in between the time we drop our daughter off at school and the end of her after-school play date. Certainly not an end, but definitly a means to an end.

    Maybe we can get the kid to stay at her friend's house for dinner...Hmmmmm....

    I'd like to thank all those who took the time to post thoughtful and useful replies. Thanks for your time.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Am I Crazy for feeling this way?

    Since this thread is similar to what’s going on with me I thought I should post it here and get some feedback.

    I’ve been going to various clubs for several years now. Over the years I had several OTC experiences and I had 2 rather long term relationship with a dancer. One of them, who are now retired, became a very close friend after the relationship ended. For a little while I stayed away from the clubs because I was afraid this may happen again and afraid I may get hurt, but of course when I went in due to boredom to just have fun turned into something confusing.
    I recently met a dancer, who in the beginning I thought she was nice but didn’t think much of her. As we spend more time together, ITC about once a week, we got to know each other quite well, we exchange emails and stuff and we definitely hit off over little shy of 2 months period. Since I’ve been there before, falling in love with a dancer and be in relationship with one, I just kind of let it be I didn’t expect anything or trying to get a dancer, I may have been developing a crush on her but it’s not like this never happened to me before I knew I can handle this, however, 2 weekends ago, ITC, she tells me she really likes me and have a big crush on me, she also expressed this in little physical way and observing how she was up to this point I do believe what she is saying, yes it crossed my mind that it may be SS but from my experiences I don’t believe so. From what I got from her she is a shy person in real life and her co-workers doesn’t seem to know much about her but she revealed a lot about her in this past month, she even told me that she may have told me too much. I did tell her that I have feelings for her as well, which is a truth. Than she tells me she has a boyfriend and we won’t be able to go OTC but than she tells me how much she thinks of me during the week (she only works on weekends) and stuff, in my mind here we go some more SS.? but than last weekend when I went in there she spent few hours (until the end of the night) just sitting with me and didn’t work, yes of course I tipped her at the end but she could’ve made easily triple of what I gave her in those time. She than tells me that she is confused. Even asked me why is she feeling this way if she is in love with her boyfriend. I didn’t know what to say to that. I would obviously love to be with her and at this point I’m starting to fall for her but I’m not a type of person who would come in between someone’s relationship. But this
    It’s almost like the position is reversed in this situation, usually guys are the one with relationship or wife and gets confused about feelings toward the dancer, in the fantasy world, but in this case I really think she is bit torn apart, she obviously loves her boyfriend (at least I think since she is with him still) but I became her companion ITC. Do any of you dancers ever experience anything like this? Or even cheated with customer over your husband/boyfriend? Like I said I had some past experience in this but this is bit different and so I wanted some opinions on this.
    around here majority of dancers are very private, they don’t normally go “hang out” with customers, most of them hide quite well that they have this profession, I’ve been to different states and realized that the scene is completely different, and I even see that on some comments on this forum.
    Last edited by thelegend; 10-31-2006 at 09:25 PM.

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