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Thread: Copper futures

  1. #1
    God/dess scarlett_vancouver's Avatar
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    Default Copper futures

    So I'm supposed to advise my strata council what to do. Here's the situation:

    We need new pipes. First floor was supposed to get started this fall. We collected all the fees in a special levy over the summer.

    Our quote was for $38000-ish (1st floor only), quoted in May 2006. We just got a revised quote, because of increased copper prices: $58000.

    Wtf? Are copper prices anticipated to go down? $20000 is a lot to a 39 unit building. And we still need to do the 2nd and 3rd floors!

    Should I gun for a whole different material? Suck it up and issue a new special levy?

    This suuucks!

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  2. #2
    Senior Member susan22's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copper futures

    HG futures (that is high grade copper) prices are back to about where they were this past May. So unless these guys were way off in their calculation of the initial offer a 53% increase in price does not seem justified.

    Check here http://charts.futuresource.com/cis/a...w&size=760x400 for a continuous contract weekly bar chart for HG.

    Copper exhausted into a typical blow-off top in June. Purely from a technical perspective that high is unlikely to be challenged in the short term. Most likely there is more sideways or slightly downward tilted consolidation ahead.The best scenario you can probably hope for over the next few months would be a resolution of that triangle to the downside resulting in a pullback to the 220 to 240 support zone. If that should come to pass it would probably be accompanied by further signs of decelerating global economic growth on the fundamental front.

  3. #3
    Sitri
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    Default Re: Copper futures

    Unless copper is required by building code, I would go with PVC. However, in a commercial situation code may require it.

    Do you have a detailed quote? Also, sometimes they increase their labor cost just because the materials went up. No offense, but I have gotten screwed by plumbers more than any other trade.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copper futures

    copper demand from China just doesn't seem to want to drop. Also, there was / is a tremendous amount of hedge fund activity in copper futures. Also, in regards to construction materials like copper tubing, manufacturers took a 'beating' while the price of copper was rising, and are keeping 'retail' prices high to recoup. Altogether, this probably means that the price of copper tubing isn't going to drop significantly in the near future.

    I agree with Sitri that the best option is probably to requote with PVC or better yet PEX in Canada (codes have been revised because many new PEX tubing companies are Canadian !), providing that local codes will permit the use of plastic pipe (most now will). Plastic prices should be dropping in conjunction with oil prices !

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    God/dess scarlett_vancouver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copper futures

    thanks so much you guys, I really appreciate it.

    I've requested 2 more quotes on full copper piping, 3 quotes on PVC/copper combo (copper for hot water only), and 3 quotes on PEX (thanks Melonie!).

    We'll see. Our property manager is a MORON (seriously, omg I hate him), so it'll probably be weeks before I know what's up

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copper futures

    ^^^ I hope PEX solves your cost problem. I actually just installed some PEX tubing myself this year for watering my garden ... because with the right type of PEX tubing you can actually allow water to freeze inside the tubing over the winter and it won't be damaged when the tubing thaws out next spring (hmmm, maybe that's why Canada is a leader in PEX technology ?)

    PS I hope that at least one of your PEX quotes is for a 'manifold' system ... which should reduce material and installation costs in a big way re an apartment building installation ... according to my dad (building contractor), every floor of the apartment building requires a large diameter 'loop' for both hot and cold water that starts in the basement, goes up to the first manifold for the first apartment, then jumps to the next manifold for the next apartment ... jumps to the last manifold for the last apartment, and then from the last manifold back to the basement again. In other words, under normal operating conditions, the 13 apartments on each floor would be fed by two hot and cold main lines, with one line feeding each 'end' of the floor. If you're talking about 13 apartments per floor, 'loops' of 2" diameter PEX tubing to each floor then feeding the 13 individual manifold blocks for each apartment on that floor should work great. My dad also mentions that if you are willing to pay for 'full bore' 2" shutoff valves between each apartment's manifold blocks and at the beginning and end of the 'loops', in a worst case situation with a future plumbing problem only one apartment would actually have to go completely without water while the plumbing problem is being fixed (although this isn't absolutely required by codes and will add $100 or so per apartment to the cost - but can save a lot of future unhappiness).

    see

    Although the claimed 'energy savings' due to vastly reduced heat loss through the pipe itself are arguably optimistic, it's obviously saving something versus copper / metallic pipe. Also, my dad made the assumption that hot water is being provided by a central boiler / hot water heater, and not by individual small water heaters in each apartment. The manifold system would still work with individual small water heaters, but he asks A. why would you want to since this is less efficient vs buying a couple of new high efficiency high capacity central units for each floor as part of the replumbing project, and points out B. that if individual apartment water heaters are used you'll still need to run a total of four 2" lines to each floor - two to feed cold water devices and the other two to feed all of the individual water heaters.

    also see Dad says look into two pairs of direct connected 199,000 BTU units for each floor, with each direct connected pair feeding one end of the hot water loop ... total hot water capacity of 796,000 BTU per floor should handle at least 6 showers running at the same time with no perceptible drop in water temp. These units are relatively cheap, and will never be cheaper to install than as an integral part of a large replumbing project. And between the higher efficiency / cost difference between electric BTU's vs gas BTU's, the lower heat losses of tankless units, and the elimination of most future water heater headaches, the tenants will recoup the investment in a couple of years at most. If there is an issue with tenants paying for their own electric hot water versus getting 'free' central gas hot water, it should be an easy sell that a $10 a month rent increase to cover the natural gas will net them a $20 reduction in their monthly electric bill ! All of the tankless water heaters could be installed in the basement, but installing a direct connected pair of units near the 'first' and 'last' apartment on each floor would offer greater energy efficiency (but also require lots of new gas plumbing, which probably cancels out the advantage unless there is already gas plumbing to every floor / apartment)

    .
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-13-2006 at 09:08 PM.

  7. #7
    Sitri
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    Default Re: Copper futures

    O.K. Melonie,

    After careful research, I have determined that with all of your knowledge, you are actually a female cyborg or something like Data on Startrek.

    Your romance horoscope reads something like.

    Today your perfect mate will be a computer named HAL9000 where you can exchange information at a 1000 gigabit orgasmic rate.


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    Default Re: Copper futures

    lol!

    Wow, thanks Melonie! I didn't even see the edit until now. I'm going to have to go over the info you posted carefully- it's exactly what I need.

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    Default Re: Copper futures

    If the code for high rise buildings is anything like Nevada codes ( Canada Uses simular US codes ) you cannot run any type of plastic pipe in the building due to the toxins that are released if there was a fire . But I could be wrong .

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    Default Re: Copper futures

    ^^^ PEX is not PVC. Generally, for multistory buildings that are not 'hi-rise' i.e. the three story apartment building in question, dad says that codes can be met by using a thermally activated fire-stop at the point where the main 'loop' 2" PEX plumbing penetrates each floor.

    If the code is particularly strict, the PEX tubing people have developed something called PEX-AL-PEX, which is a super-thin wall aluminum tube with PEX material bonded to the inside and outside (see ). Thus even in the event of a fire, the 'embedded' aluminum tubing will not lose its shape. So even if the local construction codes are super strict (which is extremely doubtful unless you're talking about a 7+ story 'hi-rise' building), they could be met by using PEX-AL-PEX only from the basement to each floor then using regular PEX tubing for all plumbing which stays on the same floor.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-16-2006 at 03:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Copper futures

    After careful research, I have determined that with all of your knowledge, you are actually a female cyborg or something like Data on Startrek.
    Actually, what I am is a twin youngest sister ... born to a family with 3 other girls and a father who was a building contractor. I wound up being treated as the 'son' my father never had, and from a very early age I wound up tagging along with him on some of his construction jobs. He taught me how to read blueprints by the time I was 10 - as well as teaching me how to solder copper pipe. cut and glue plastic pipe, and do electrical house wiring. He also tried to teach me more testosterone-laden construction skills like laying concrete block, but finally came to the conclusion that it was unreasonable for him to expect his young teen daughter to be able to one-hand a 12" cinder block while troweling in mortar with the other hand the way he did !

    Dads training was one of the reasons I chose Respiratory Therapy as a 'straight' career choice - because it involves just as much in the way of pumps and plumbing and pressure control as it does medicine.

    Wow, thanks Melonie! I didn't even see the edit until now. I'm going to have to go over the info you posted carefully- it's exactly what I need.
    don't thank me, thank my dad. At any rate, he wanted you to know that the approach the contractor chooses can mean a tremendous difference in the overall amount of work and cost required. If the 'customer' knows the best way to approach the problem instead of allowing the contractor to 'tell them the best way', then they won't get sold a 'bill of goods'. With PEX, the tubing itself is dirt cheap but the valves and fittings are very expensive as well as time-consuming ... therefore using a manifold approach with built-in valves rather than keeping separate shutoff valves at each sink / tub / dishwasher / toilet saves a ton of cost as well as installation time.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-16-2006 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Copper futures

    Ya I understand Pex it is a plastic but not mistaken with PVC , have run some of it as well very easy to run .

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    ^^^ PEX is not PVC. Generally, for multistory buildings that are not 'hi-rise' i.e. the three story apartment building in question, dad says that codes can be met by using a thermally activated fire-stop at the point where the main 'loop' 2" PEX plumbing penetrates each floor.

    If the code is particularly strict, the PEX tubing people have developed something called PEX-AL-PEX, which is a super-thin wall aluminum tube with PEX material bonded to the inside and outside (see http://www.aqua-therm.com/pages/index.php?pID=23 ). Thus even in the event of a fire, the 'embedded' aluminum tubing will not lose its shape. So even if the local construction codes are super strict (which is extremely doubtful unless you're talking about a 7+ story 'hi-rise' building), they could be met by using PEX-AL-PEX only from the basement to each floor then using regular PEX tubing for all plumbing which stays on the same floor.

    ~

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